Superthrive for Bonsai

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Superthrive for Bonsai

Post  AK_Panama on Fri Jun 10, 2011 6:53 pm

Hello everyone!

I just received the bottle of Superthrive I ordered to test out. I was wondering if any of you have experience using this product with your trees and if you have any advice on its use. The packaging reads it helps get two years growth in one.



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Re: Superthrive for Bonsai

Post  JimLewis on Fri Jun 10, 2011 6:58 pm

Yeah and it probably cures warts, too, and relieves indigestion. It also won World War II (it's on the package) -- AND NO ONE KNOWS WHAT'S IN IT! From the stink, it has vitamin B in it, and that has been proven to be useless for plants.

Absolute waste of money.

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Re: Superthrive for Bonsai

Post  AK_Panama on Fri Jun 10, 2011 7:00 pm

Yeah I didn´t get that World War 2 bit!

What the heck is that about?

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Superthrive

Post  bonsaisr on Fri Jun 10, 2011 9:06 pm

Jim was kidding.
Many growers swear by Superthrive, but it has never been tested scientifically. Probably no researcher will touch it because the formula is a secret. You could run a test on it and Dr. Thompson could change the formula. Nobody would know and the test would be meaningless.
On the other hand, there have been several studies on seaweed extract. It is a proven growth stimulant. If you want to give your trees an extra tonic, see if you can get hold of seaweed extract.
Iris

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Re: Superthrive for Bonsai

Post  JimLewis on Fri Jun 10, 2011 9:52 pm

Jim was kidding.

Correction: Jim was NOT kidding!

This stuff is good ONLY for the people who make it.

If I ran the world (shudder) it would be off the market.

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Re: Superthrive for Bonsai

Post  RichLewis on Fri Jun 10, 2011 11:47 pm

@bonsaisr wrote:Jim was kidding.
On the other hand, there have been several studies on seaweed extract. It is a proven growth stimulant. If you want to give your trees an extra tonic, see if you can get hold of seaweed extract.
Iris

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Superthrive for Bonsai

Post  Guest on Sat Jun 11, 2011 12:11 am

Emperor's new clothes.

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Superthrive

Post  bonsaisr on Sat Jun 11, 2011 12:57 am

What I meant was that Jim was kidding about World War II.
Iris

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Re: Superthrive for Bonsai

Post  Brett Summers on Sat Jun 11, 2011 10:36 am

Com'n Jim we have been through this before. The ingredients of superthrive are there if you look with some thought. Auxin, B1 and humic or fulvic acid.
Yes it is easy to say B1 does nothing but not so easy to say this about the other ingredients.

Superthrive was recently put on the agricultural chemical product list in Australia which will amuse some as it now has to prove what it states on the label before it can be sold in Australia. This has happened in a few other countries as well.
What defines it as an agricultural chemical product is a substance that is,
"modifying the physiology of a plant or pest so as to alter its natural development, productivity, quality or reproductive capacity;"

The scary part is that may other things we use also fit into this category. Basically anything that contains gibberellins, auxins, cytokinins,abscisic acid, etc.
This includes Seasol (Seaweed extract), seamungus, root cutting solutions/powders and so on. Most of these products however are allowed to be sold without being classed as an agricultural chemical product. So far!
The guy from Australian Pesticides and Veterinary Medicines Authority who made the decision about superthrive said the cavalry is on it's way on all these products

The very cool thing is that apart from sifting through all the literature on the various tests that have been conducted we can trust that these things do actually work as another "Transplant shock limiter" and "Growth stimulator" Multi Crop Plant starter, is a registered product. So that means it has proven what it claims to the Australian Pesticides and Veterinary Medicines Authority who do not take these decisions lightly, being;

Plant Starter is a plant growth stimulant designed to speed plant growth and establishment. The active ingredients are Indole Butyric Acid (IBA) and Naphthalene Acetic Acid (NAA) in liquid form. Promotes quick establishment of seedlings.
Reduces transplant shock when repotting or transplanting.
Encourages root formation on plant cuttings.
Increases the life of cut flowers.
Available in 500ml and 1L sizes

@bonsaisr wrote:Jim was kidding.
Many growers swear by Superthrive, but it has never been tested scientifically. Probably no researcher will touch it because the formula is a secret. You could run a test on it and Dr. Thompson could change the formula. Nobody would know and the test would be meaningless.
On the other hand, there have been several studies on seaweed extract. It is a proven growth stimulant. If you want to give your trees an extra tonic, see if you can get hold of seaweed extract.
Iris

Iris if you believe that seaweed extract works then you must believe Superthrive works as they are much the same thing except Superthrive comes in a much more concentrated form and has garish advertising on the lable.

The fact is Superthrive and other auxin based solutions can and do change the way a plant grows. This is why it must become a registerd product. If you know what you are doing you can use this change in natural development to your benifit in many cases such as transplant shock.
Used in the wrong manner it does have the ability to work agianst you as well.

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Re: Superthrive for Bonsai

Post  JimLewis on Sat Jun 11, 2011 12:50 pm

Actually, the WWII comment IS on the label -- or the box,

Here, from its preposterous advertisement (typography as near as possible to the original):

"USED BY
"FIVE U.S. DEPARTMENTS TO HELP WIN WORLD WAR II
"THOUSANDS OF GOVERNMENTS, STATE UNIVERSITIES, LEADING ARBORETUMS BOTANICAL GARDENS, PARKS SYSTEMS, U.S. STATES and CITIES IN MULTIPLE DRUMS LOTS -- "everywhere" . . . "

Their ads haven't changed in half a century . . . shudder.

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Superthrive

Post  bonsaisr on Sat Jun 11, 2011 2:38 pm

Oh, yes, now I remember the WWII bit.

<<Iris if you believe that seaweed extract works then you must believe Superthrive works>>

It has nothing to do with belief. We are not talking about religion here. As far as I know, there have never been any scientific tests of Superthrive. I would love to know what they find in Australia. Some users have reported good results. I used it for years, but I don't know whether it did any good.
On the other hand, my contact at the College of Environmental Science and Forestry found some scientific studies that proved seaweed extract is beneficial in certain circumstances. I can get you the references if you wish. Therefore I am now using seaweed extract with every feeding instead of Superthrive. It's a whole lot cheaper.
Iris

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Re: Superthrive for Bonsai

Post  JimLewis on Sat Jun 11, 2011 4:15 pm

I recall that Andy Walsh did (or started) some sort of "study" years ago and concluded that it made absolutely no difference. But to do a real study would take thousands of dollars (or more), controlled conditions, and more interest that anyone I have talked to in horticultural circles seems to think is warranted. The extension office staff that I have talked to over the years simply laugh (and the extension agency would have been one of those "thousands" of government agencies that used it to win WWII.

The use or non-use of Superthrive is 100% a belief system; if you believe and are willing to shell out an astounding amount of money for it -- have at it.

Meanwhile, I'll warn against it whenever the topic comes up.

The garish advertising on the box and in magazines ought to scare anyone way from it.

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Jim Lewis - lewisjk@windstream.net - Western NC - People, when Columbus discovered this country, it was plumb full of nuts and berries. And I'm right here to tell you the berries are just about all gone. Uncle Dave Macon, old-time country musician

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Re: Superthrive for Bonsai

Post  fiona on Sat Jun 11, 2011 8:46 pm

WW2 CLAIM HERE It's in the bracketed bit that starts "Only So"

I've decided I'm going to use this product.

But only with my students as a classic example of advertising hyperbole and pseudosciencebabble. Brilliant!



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Re: Superthrive for Bonsai

Post  Glaucus on Sat Jun 11, 2011 11:05 pm

You can tell from what they think they have to put on the package that it's nonsense.

Now if you want to use auxin or other plant hormones, that's something else. If someone sells you auxin then that is the only thing they should put on the package.

Thank god we don't have this in Europe.

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Re: Superthrive for Bonsai

Post  Brett Summers on Sun Jun 12, 2011 1:42 am

Iris
What I am saying is that superthrive and seaweed extract are basically the same thing. The reason that scientific studies have proved seaweed extract is beneficial in certain circumstances is from auxin contained in Seaweed extract. So you can't say one works from Auxin but the other doesn't just because it has garish advertising.
The comment certain circumstances is very valid and you need to understand these circumstances before you conduct any test with Auxin solutions.
I also used to think that seaweed extract was alot cheaper too. But doing some basic sums it seems the higher concentration of the active ingredients in Superthrive with the lower dilution rates it states, then Superthrive may even be cheaper!

Now if you want to use auxin or other plant hormones, that's something else. If someone sells you auxin then that is the only thing they should put on the package.
Glaucus, If you are saying that maybe we should use a product that only contains Auxin then I think that is very feasible. In fact that is how I started using Auxins. But I think it is widely excepted that humic content is benificial to plants so I see no reason to say it should not be used along with Auxin such as in Seaweed extract and Superthrive.
But if this comment is just a dislike of the label in general then to not use it because of garish labeling is as silly as using just because of the garish labeling Wink


Jim I would never suggest that you should not be able to have your view of this stuff but to shout "AND NO ONE KNOWS WHAT'S IN IT! " When I myself have shown you where to find the active ingredients of Superthrive and you leave out the Active ingredient that does have scientific backing. Seems more misleading than the superthrives label itself.



I can understand peoples dislike of Superthrives label. But these days I find it quite Funny. If you start to consider what is on the lable then there really is very little that does not hold up and I find this hilarious.
I can link anyone to the in depth discussions the bonsai Community has had on this subject for those interested. But as people dislike the label so much for a bit of Fun I wonder if anyone can find a comment on the label that obviously has no truth behind it. I will do my best to explain where I almost all have very valid or at least plausible reasoning behind them.


Lets jump in the deep end with, Helped win WW II
Sounds ridiculous yes I agree, But when you think about it maybe this is a valid claim or at least I think we can put this in the plausible category.
They say that Hemp helped win the war. From memory they legalised the growing of it to make the ropes for the ships.
Food shortage was a major issue in the war. So if Superthrive was used by 5 US departments in some way such as to help grow plants to eat or maybe even in hemp production. Then maybe they do have the right to claim it helped win the War.
This is alot of conjecture but I do believe that is enough to put in the plausible category without any further information.
Any of this is not to say I agree with the way they market through the lable only that with such a garish lable I find it hilarious that such outlandish cliams when you think about them probably are true in some regard.

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Re: Superthrive for Bonsai

Post  fiona on Sun Jun 12, 2011 2:32 am

Well if we put it that way, then I could say that my dad helped win World War II too. But if he were to put that in his CV/resumé and use a similar quantity of superlatives and hyperbole, funnily enough I'm sure he wouldn't land that top job with NATO.

But it's easy to scoff, and as Brett says, if we're put off only by the gross advertising then that could be both a shame and ironic: a shame in that we may very well be denying ourselves a reasonable product without actually giving it a go, and ironic because of the haste in which some of our community rush to buy any Japanese fertiliser despite not being able to understand a word of what's on the packaging but instead adopting the it's Japanese therefore it must be good opinion.

And me? Well I will admit to trying products. So far seaweed extracts work for me in my little climate of nice soft water, moerate temperatures and a helluva lot of rain. Miracle Gro works well on bedding plants but offers no real improvement on my bonsai. I am currently trying out Valagro One on the recommendation of two UK bonsai friends whose judgment I'd trust.
And for the record, yes I have tried Superthrive, and no, in none of the cases in which I used it did it prove to be of benefit.

So, now I'm thinking, since they've both got Vitamin B in them, I'll try making a concoction out of Marmite/Vegemite and see if that does the same thing. If not, I can always eat it.


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Re: Superthrive for Bonsai

Post  Russell Coker on Sun Jun 12, 2011 4:11 am

@fiona wrote:So, now I'm thinking, since they've both got Vitamin B in them, I'll try making a concoction out of Marmite/Vegemite and see if that does the same thing. If not, I can always eat it.

I think they already have...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jVfBRRm7RgI

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Re: Superthrive for Bonsai

Post  Brett Summers on Sun Jun 12, 2011 8:38 am

Nice to read thoughtful words Fiona.
To be fully open I can't say I have found any for sure, obvious benefit from using these products. I have only been doing bonsai for about 6 years so I have made many changes in that time and something like the use of auxin solutions is very hard to know how much difference they are making especially when I am always changing other stuff.
I do have two stand out experiences. When I first started I made a root over rock Juniper and it really took off after the transplant. I had used a stand alone Auxin treatment at the time but after discussions like this I stopped using for some years. I know think back and wonder if the treatment I used was a great help as conifers in experiments have responded well to these treatments.
Since then I have mostly used seaweed extracts as it mad me feel more natural sunny
But I am going back to using some stand alone auxin treatments again.
The other is much more obvious in that I took some hard wood cuttings (couple of inches thick) of an easy to propagate vine/bush. Just for the hell of it I made up a strong seaweed extract mix and just left them in this. Within days they where sprouting roots so out of interest I cut another one of the bush and it took maybe two weeks to sprout roots.
Then the puzzling thing is after 1 year I found the cutting I did just in water had actually grown more than the others. BUT there where many variables such as different size pots and mix so really inconclusive.

So I would be very interested if you could elaborate on how you see Seaweed extracts work for you but Superthrive has not shown the same benefits.
I would love to have a quick run down of how you used them and what you found.

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Re: Superthrive for Bonsai

Post  Glaucus on Sun Jun 12, 2011 12:53 pm

I am just saying that by looking at the package they themselves tell you they don't believe it works. I am not saying it does or doesn't work. I am just saying I think they don't believe it works.

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Re: Superthrive for Bonsai

Post  JimLewis on Sun Jun 12, 2011 3:05 pm

i
m I would never suggest that you should not be able to have your view
of this stuff but to shout "AND NO ONE KNOWS WHAT'S IN IT! " When I
myself have shown you where to find the active ingredients of
Superthrive and you leave out the Active ingredient that does have
scientific backing. Seems more misleading than the superthrives label
itself.

Supethrive does not -- repeat NOT -- have a USDA label that lists ingredients -- active and inactive and percentages. What it does have is a soft, puffy claim by the maker.

Unless you are an agricultural scientist and can back up the claimed ingredients with some authority, I'll stick with the agricultural scientists that I know well who say it's hooey.

Marketers run the agricultural chemical industry. That's why there are bottles of fertilizer sold in the box stores for "house plants" and "roses" and "succulents" that have identical USDA labels but different prices based on the marketers' estimate of what various gardener hobbyists will pay. That's why other companies would have you attach a bottle of liquid fertilizer to the end of your hose and have you water your lawn/garden with it -- so you waste more and therefore spend more.

You may enjoy your Superthrive.

II've thought of getting a bottle and rubbing it in to my very painful back -- but I wouldn't want to suggest that to the makers.

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Jim Lewis - lewisjk@windstream.net - Western NC - People, when Columbus discovered this country, it was plumb full of nuts and berries. And I'm right here to tell you the berries are just about all gone. Uncle Dave Macon, old-time country musician

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Re: Superthrive for Bonsai

Post  fiona on Sun Jun 12, 2011 4:52 pm

@JimLewis wrote: I've thought of getting a bottle and rubbing it in to my very painful back -- but I wouldn't want to suggest that to the makers.
But Jim, the packaging clearly states that BILLIONS of sore backs have been cured using Superthrive and all have gone on to help win major world conflicts. I'd say go for it. Wink

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Re: Superthrive for Bonsai

Post  JimLewis on Sun Jun 12, 2011 9:04 pm

But the smell, Fiona . . . the smell!

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Re: Superthrive for Bonsai

Post  BrianG on Sun Jun 12, 2011 9:35 pm

Just asking. How does something not work because it doesn't list it's ingrediants? KFC original recipe has secret 11 herbs and spices... just because it's secret doesn't mean it isn't good tasting.... though it maybe opinion how it taste's millions of dollare being made and the fact that it has been around for years say it works... What I'm saying is if superthrive is been around all this time and is still being used It must be something to it. If it doesn't work the maker of superthrive is one hell of a carpet bagger... LOL ....

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Re: Superthrive for Bonsai

Post  Glaucus on Sun Jun 12, 2011 10:18 pm

Science and not suspending disbelief.

Your argument is fallacious anyway. People use it so it must work? That's a non-sequitur.

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Re: Superthrive for Bonsai

Post  Randy_Davis on Sun Jun 12, 2011 11:06 pm

You don't need it to grow quality plants. What's needed is care, attention and a general purpose food. The occasional insecticide or fungicide is good too. Most other stuff is unnecessary and a waste of time and money.

Randy

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Re: Superthrive for Bonsai

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