My very first plant - tamarind

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My very first plant - tamarind

Post  JanG. on Mon Apr 02, 2018 3:03 pm

Hello dear,
it was about two years ago when I started to be interested in growing bonsai trees. I saw a nice tamarind tree in a book and I also wanted similar one. There it was written that this tree is quite easy to grow, so I bought some tamarind pods in supermarket when I had a chance. It was in December 2017, without gaining more informations I just put seeds in a peat/soil for house plants.
Well, the seeds were fresh and they sprouted in about three weeks. During this time I was finding more informations and I found out that it would not be the best plant for beginners in the temperate zone. So what now? Very Happy  Just keep in growing.

Two of them are about 4 months old, the smaller one is about 2 months old.
In summer I am going to reput them into better soil and I am going to keep them in a bigger boxes - this should be good for root growth and the plant should get some strength.
I have seen in some video that tamarind does not have big root system (at least when it is such young), so I guess I do not need to be hurry.
However, despite of reading articles and watching videos, I have some concerns abut the next steps.
I can work on my own, but if you would have some advice, please let me know - mainly if you would seem me going to do something in a wrong way.

So first - I will wait until they grow a little bit more (until summer)
Second - I will repot them to beter soil, I will keep all roots and leaves, only some flat stone will be put under the plant to start creating nebari (Isen't it too early? I have no idea...).

In a future I will also start with some easier trees.

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Re: My very first plant - tamarind

Post  Khaimraj Seepersad on Wed Apr 04, 2018 7:19 pm

Jan,

tamarinds need full sun.

So if indoors see about some sort of affordable lighting.For when temperatures drop below 70 deg.F
day or night.

You could look up the work of Jack Wickle on Google. Fluorescent lighting if the other light sources
cost too much.

Try an inorganic that does not hold water in itself at 7 parts [ 5 mm in size ] and 3 parts sifted
compost or sifted peat moss.

Size of your effort ?

They can be 1 inch tall to around 36 inches.

They are leaf dense, but have a few strong branches.

After 10 years the bark starts to flake and it will flower and can fruit.

Easy tree to grow in the tropics.

Decide on a height and then learn to keep it healthy.
I will be around if you have questions.
Laters.
Khaimraj

two examples -




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Re: My very first plant - tamarind

Post  JanG. on Sun Apr 08, 2018 3:34 pm

Hello Khaimraj,
thank you.
Now they are situated by southwest window, so they are on quite full sun. During summer I will put them outside, a time after planned repotting I will keep them on some half shaded place.
I have been checking some universal soils, but your suggestion seems better.

After I read some articles about tamarind plants I am concerned about moving them or making anything with them. Those stories like "I turned tamarind 180° and it dropped all leaves" or "after summer I moved tamarind indoors, then it dropped all leaves and now it seems dead".
Well, I will see Neutral . Exactly, I have been turning them from time to time as a test what will happen and they seems still good.

Until autumn I will prepare some kind of growing box with LED bulbs. I am planning also some cotoneaster and Ligustrum vulgare (or chinensis), so I will have all of them inside with tamarind during cold seasons (I want to grow them fast  Very Happy  ). I will try it with one growing LED bulb and two more cold white bulbs. I have small place and for such small amount of plants it could be apropriate. LED bulbs does not emit much heat, so they can be placed close to the plants. The bulbs are heating itself, but in autumn or winter it is no problem  Smile
Also I will ensure some basic humidity for them - like placing big plate with water and ceresit under them.


I do not want them too big.
It was surprise for me that tamarinds can be even 1 inch small. My efforted size is about 25cm (10 inches), if neccessary, then bigger but only up to 50cm (20 inches).
As I read, the very small trees need much more care then bigger ones, so I want some compromise. Furthermore, I like medium sized bonsai trees the most.
I will see how will they grow. Now they have quite long stem (or thin trunk Smile ). But I am planning grow them in an informal upright style, so I guess it is still good, trunk will be twisted little bit and then the plants will be finally lower.

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Re: My very first plant - tamarind

Post  Khaimraj Seepersad on Sat Apr 14, 2018 3:33 pm

First situation in Bonsai ---------- learn to keep them healthy.

If you want to learn about training, you need about 10 or 20
of the same type.
BUT do not experiment on the mother plants.
Until.
Khaimraj
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Re: My very first plant - tamarind

Post  JanG. on Sun Apr 29, 2018 5:14 pm

Well,
I think that theoretically I know the basics. I also know about that plants recommended amount when you start from the seed.
But you know, I have not much space. I will maybe try another two or three seeds, but they are getting older, so I will see if they will sprout or not.

Now I have a question.
Time of repotting is closing. As I mentioned, I want to put them to larger containers. Shall I fill the full container with that inorganic soil 7 parts and 3 parts sifted
compost? Or is it better to fill it fully with compost? I think that containers will have value abou 2l. Or else  Very Happy  shall I fill half of the container with compost (cheap, full of nutrients) and then put thick layer with that soil mix (inorganic with compost)? Then the plants would be primary growing in the soil mix and they could gain more nutrients from lower part of compost layer.
What seems to be appropriate?

Another thing - shall I try to shape them already? They seems still to be delicate, I definitely do not want to break them.
When you think it is the good time for starting shaping them? I mean the trunk twisting.
I have also read, that the trunk of trees which are informal upright style should not be going straight up at the base.
So, shall I set the plants oblique, or is it just too soon? ... Because I have seen some guys that start to shape their plants very early

Thank you for comments.
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Re: My very first plant - tamarind

Post  Khaimraj Seepersad on Wed May 02, 2018 1:02 pm

Jan,

Tamarinds are very simple to grow [ Tropics here ]

They love the sun.
They are acid producing plants - 4 on the acid scale

Soil is a simple mix of 3 parts organic to 7 parts inorganic.

We use compost for the organic. It is sifted and has been kept just moist in
a covered barrel for 6 months to a year.
This allows the weed seed to germinate and die in the darkness.

My inorganic is silica based 5 mm gravel.Construction gravel,

If the tree needs a more moisture retaining soil, I can substitute half of
the silica with crushed red earthenware fired building brick.
It is porous and holds water / fertiliser within itself.

You can for the inorganic use peat moss.

The inorganic material is very stable as a soil, will not break down.
________________________________________________________

if you want to, when the Tamarind seeds germinate, you can after a
few weeks, cut about 1.25 mm under the cotyledons and dip the cut
into rooting powder. This allows you to start branches very low down
if you wish for a low or short tamarind tree.

Tamarinds do not have surface roots. They have a special feature where they
fatten the trunk and rise out of the soil.
Also they go through 3 stages of change as the bark goes.
The second stage is bark with fissures and after 8 to 10 years, the bark
will flake off.

Flowering and fruiting is normally around 8 to 10 years.
Laters.
Khaimraj
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Re: My very first plant - tamarind

Post  JanG. on Sat May 05, 2018 1:47 pm

Hello Khaimraj,
yes, I have also checked some toppics here. I was surprised thet here is less of tamarind topics. (Tamarinds are not enough attractive?) I also read that thing about cutting it under cotyledons, so I decided to set another five seeds and try it. Well, it is recommended to scratch the seed's surface, so I scratched them more then the first time, and it seems that they sprout much faster. I set them shallow (not as deep as last time) and I can see changes even after two days Very Happy  Which is surprising, because first I was waiting more than three weeks until I could see them sprouting.

Well, I set two bigger seeds, and in another pod there were three quite small. So in this three cases they will have also smaller cotyledons. I will see if they will make it through that cutting despite of their size. I got that rooting stimulator, so it is plus. I will wait until the first leaves will be developed and then I will try this technique.

As I could see, the trunk under te surface is really thicker. I dropped my youngest plant when I was moving it outside last week, so I had to set it back. And I could also see that small amount of the roots. So now I am thinking about that containers. Why use big container for a plant that has such small root system?  Confused  It is maybe more sensible for older plants... You know, I gained lot of informations across the spectrum of bonsai growing. But I have no experiences and I need to sort the informations.
So, I will repot them anyway. I guess that more space in this growing stage will not make any bad.

But, last time I was talking about shaping. People make wiring sometimes very early to shape the trunk.
When would you suggest to start wiring the trunk? After repotting? Or is it too soon?
I know that it could be for nothing, if the trunk would be finally too much high - then I would perform air layering to get the plant lower and then the trunk shape would be lost.
But, what is you opinion?

Bellow is that plant which fell on the floor. It is visible that thicker trunk (at right).
Interesting  Smile

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Re: My very first plant - tamarind

Post  Khaimraj Seepersad on Sun May 06, 2018 11:47 am

Once they are healthy, all you need is clip and grow -

They feature very slight curves and are straight or lean, but if you wire in bends
the tree will try to straighten itself ---------- genetics
Laters
Khaimraj

Typical shapes -

http://look4rainbowslearned.blogspot.com/2010/05/book-of-enoch-chapter-30-tamarind-trees.html

https://www.medicinalplantsanduses.com/tamarind-tree-health-benefits


oldest tamarind tree-

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dV7uMC6E7Sk
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Re: My very first plant - tamarind

Post  JanG. on Mon May 07, 2018 8:56 pm

Yeah, clip and grow was mentioned in a book.
Tamarind tree will try to straighten itself? Shocked  You mean that it will be doing it for all the time? Then it ruins my plans. I wanted some bends on the trunk- mostly to make the tree lower.
Well, if so, then I have a plan B. I will let it grow. I will perform shaping by clip and grow method and in case of too high trunk I will make air layering (or maybe ground layering) and that's it.

Neutral  But I am little bit surprised.
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Re: My very first plant - tamarind

Post  Khaimraj Seepersad on Wed May 09, 2018 1:09 pm

The Tamarind is a naturally beautiful tree.
Growing it is much based on memories.

[1] Shade and cool

[2] Climbing as a boy

[3] Meals and drinks.[ Angostura Bitters ]

To list a few.

Straight, but has personality, bumps and twists, flaking bark.
It is not straight, as a telephone pole might illustrate.

You can always cut back to just above the point where the
cotyledon was and it will re-sprout.
For more personality.

If you had the yard space, and and an earth temperature of around
70 to 75 deg.F [ 22 to 25 deg.C ]
Place in a colander and leave in the earth as long as the temperature
stays above 22 deg,C [ day or night ]

At around 183 cm, the trunk will go to 2.5 to 5 cms.

In my climate that can be less than 6 months.
Depends on the individual seed.

The colander can be 15 cm wide to 15 cm deep.

Don't have the yard, ask a friend or family who does.
Until
Khaimraj

Grown in an air-pot [ see Youtube for air pots ]

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Re: My very first plant - tamarind

Post  JanG. on Sun May 13, 2018 3:53 pm

Well,
I checked that air-pots. Very interesting, I will definitely get some. Now I am only considering volume of the pots.
I can get 1l volume or 3l volume, nothing between. (I would like 2l Smile ) Most probably I will take that 3l volume air-pots, but you know, it is all about the space...
I will be barely able to let 3l volume air-pots by the window.

I can not let tamarind plants out over night so far. Now the temperatures still can decrease to 13°C (55°F) which probably would not kill the plants,
but it would not make any good as well.
So until true summer I need to move them inside for the nights. In my climate night temperatures stays around 22°C only in July, so I need to grow tamarinds mostly indoor.
I know the growth will be smaller then if I would grow them outside, but there is nothing I can do. Very Happy
We have family yard, a greenhouse would be solution, but we have no appropriate place for it.

And as I can see, I have 100% success with germination of the new seeds. This is great.
I guess will try that cutting under cotylednos by the end of a week - then the first two leaves supposed to be fully developed and the plants will be ready for it.

And why I have chosen to grow tamarind? Because for me it is extraordinary tree. Also it is not easily available in my country - it was good luck that I found the pods in supermarket.
It is definetely not common fruit here.
Smile
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Re: My very first plant - tamarind

Post  JanG. on Sat May 26, 2018 9:52 am

Well,
the new seedlings were growing and developing insanely rapidly superfast Very Happy
I made cuttings three days ago. Then they were about three weeks old and they seemd to me like they are overgrown for cutting procedure, but I made it anyway.
So I will see. The cotyledons hopefully still has some nutrients for developing new roots. I was generous with stimulator, the cuttings seems to be still in good condition,
so I think that they will make it.

Bellow see how the cuttings look.
When I was cutting them I was surprised how tough is the stem. It looks much more delicate then it really is Shocked


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Re: My very first plant - tamarind

Post  JanG. on Sun May 27, 2018 10:27 am

Hello,
I have noticed, that my older plants close the leaves when I put them outside on a full sun.
I am concerned about it. Should they do it? I have thought that they should love the sun, so why are they closing the leaves? Maybe some root system issue? Confused
Or is it normal? I am watering them usually once a day - always checking the moisture. If if the substrate is still moist, I usually wait with watering until next morning and so on...

I think I should really repot them... Rolling Eyes
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Re: My very first plant - tamarind

Post  Khaimraj Seepersad on Sun May 27, 2018 6:34 pm

Jan,

that closing of the leaves as the sun gets hotter is normal.

You can grow the tamarind in the same pot for up to 2 or 3
years.
You can also repot yearly.

Only with time and care will you know when to repot.

Our growing season for them is about 8/9 months.
Trees on our side, go through a 6 months no rain and 6 months
of 15 cm to a max of 23 cm of rain.

They can also be hurt by temperatures below 18 deg,C for 10
hrs.
Especially if your seed comes from the balmy seaside.

So repot when temperatures will be above 22 deg,C for
at least 3 to 4 weeks,
This is for day or night temperatures.

Since you might be itching to repot ----- try a test plant
and see how it handles it. Not all please.
If you could fertilise with a weak fertiliser for 1 month,
once a week into moist soil. Say 12 N 2 P 2K...
Then try the repot.

Come back and inform.
Laters.
Khaimraj

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Re: My very first plant - tamarind

Post  JanG. on Sat Jun 30, 2018 4:03 pm

Hello,
I have some news and also some questions.
First - most of my cuttings died. These which were in the peat pods did not make any roots and in about two weeks dried and died. I guess that it was because of a hole which is prepared in every such pod, so you can put a seed inside after you moisture the pod - but this definetely does not suit for any cuttings. Well, I broke that holes little bit to ensure contact between stem and wet peat, but probably it was not enough. I was quite sad Rolling Eyes But nothing I can do...
Two remaining cuttings - one big and one small - seemed to be fine. I had them in that little black containers, also in peat. But last weekend the smaller one started to get dry as well.
I do not know what exactly happend in this case - maybe the root system were small and could not feed the plant appropriatelly and after some sun (I had them placed by western window - so there was some sun in late afternoon) it just did not make it.
But the last one is doing great  Very Happy  He started to grow, so I guess the roots are developed and everything will be OK.
So obviously I did some mistakes, but at least I have also some success.

Today I made another decision  Cool I performed that repotting.
I did not feritilised the plant before repotting (because I read wrong last comment with that advice  Rolling Eyes ), I chosen the weakest of my older plants - if it will make it, then it can grow better in airpot with appropriate soil. If not, then I will be sad again, but I will definetely get another experiences.
I put it in 7 parts inorganic which is half zeolit and half silica gravel, 3 parts organic which is peat soil for tropical plants. It could be OK.
When I took the plant out of old container, I found out that it had long twisted root, which is quite thick and tough. I had doubts about it, but finally I decided to cut it little bit.
I took off the thin long part which were rotating around the pot. Maybe I could cut it more, maybe I should not cut it. I do not know.
See the photos and let me know what to do in such case next time.
In my plan is (if it stays alive  Smile ) after one year cut it back and also cut of that twisted rot. Hopefully it will develop new thinner roots above that twisted part until next year.

It was twisted on the bottom.


Quite long rorating root...


After I cut it. Should I cut it more or not tu cut it at all?


Here is the result - I really really hope it will be fine.
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Re: My very first plant - tamarind

Post  Khaimraj Seepersad on Sun Jul 01, 2018 7:10 pm

Okay Jan,

so you got 10 air-pots -------- yeah----- experiments.[ teasing ]
Will be watching to see how the air-pot works for you.
Laters.
Khaimraj
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Re: My very first plant - tamarind

Post  JanG. on Fri Jul 06, 2018 10:02 am

Well,
so far it is not about containers, but mostly about my skills.
The replanted plant does not look good Sad  See photo... Maybe I should be more careful with the rootball in a future.
I have already started to fertilise another plant which I want to replant next time - I just want to put them in that airpots...

I will keep taking care for the one which I have already replanted, we will see, if it will get better.

Hmm..  Neutral
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Re: My very first plant - tamarind

Post  Khaimraj Seepersad on Sat Jul 07, 2018 3:38 pm

Jan,

what you might be missing is that Tamarinds, don't grow surface roots.

They use a modified trunk that fills and swells.

So when we start them in small plant containers or styro cups.
To transfer to air-pots we just replant everything,
The soil mix I use, was checked some 30 years ago. It encourages,
fine roots and there were no thick roots to be seen.

There is no shock to the seedling, since there is no barerooting.

A 30 something old trunk grown from a 3 leaf seedling.
The projections rose out of the soil and will in time continue to swell, naturally,
nothing was done to interfere with root system.

[url=https://servimg.com/view/19002756/163][/url

laters
Khaimraj

P.s the seedling might just drop some leaves and re-adjust, a little time perhaps.
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Re: My very first plant - tamarind

Post  JanG. on Sat Jul 14, 2018 9:42 pm

Hello Khaimraj,
no, I am not missing that tamarind don't grow surface roots. You wrote it several times I think Smile (Well, I can be only missing what exactly does it mean in terms of cultivating process.)
But that twisted root concerned me. I did not wat to cut any roots - as I wrote before. But I read that this central long thick root should be removed. I read that any of thick deep growing roots should be removed in fact - because you need only fine roots in a pot. An article where I found it was about root system care in general.
For example, if you gonna collect oak sapling (oaks are common in my climate), you should dig it around and let it grow in natural terrior until it is ready for picking up. And oaks also has deep growing root which you need to cut off anyway, because it just does not fit to shallow bonsai pots.
The information that soil also effects which roots are developed is interesting to me. I started my plants in kind of peat soil (just peat with humus and some fertilisation additives) - without any inorganic parts. Only one of them I planted in peat soil and sand (construction sand - like the construction gravel, but with all kind of parts, from very fine sand to coarse sand) 1:1. I am curious if there will be differences in root system between this one and the others. I will find out during replanting.  Smile

So I am still learning.

That replanted tamarind seems to be getting better. These yellow leaves are dropping and that fine leaves on tip seems to be fine and slowly continue to grow.
Which is great. I was afraid that I will loose this one.

However - what to do with that thick roots, which can be also twisted. I think that it must be removed. Shall I remove it later, when the saplings are older?
Should I cut off that thick root when I will cut back the green part in a future? It would make sense to me - because it should be done in the same way to ensure balance between root system and green part.

Thank you,
Jan
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Re: My very first plant - tamarind

Post  Khaimraj Seepersad on Sun Jul 15, 2018 5:32 pm

Jan,

the mix I use, after 30+ years, the tamarind shown with the biggest trunk, had nothing
but fine feeder roots.

I am working on an idea that certain soil mixes discourage the formation of thick roots.
Thus far, not one of my trees over 30 years has anything but fine feeder roots.
I am lazy you see.

There is another technique you can try, but the pot takes up a great deal of space.
Use a saucer of say 41 cm [ 16 inches ] and no deeper than 7.5 cm [ 3 inches ].
This will force the roots to grow downwards.
When you trim for repotting, thick root formation will be shortened when you
remove 2.5 cm [ 1 inch ] of soil underneath.

As you gain experience you can remove 5 cm [ 2 inches ] but much less on the
on the outside.
I will send an image later on in the week, to help explain.
Laters.
Khaimraj






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Re: My very first plant - tamarind

Post  Khaimraj Seepersad on Tue Jul 17, 2018 1:33 am

Jan,

had an idea ---- can you get Celtis
Until
Khaimraj
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Re: My very first plant - tamarind

Post  JanG. on Thu Jul 19, 2018 10:02 am

Hello Khaimraj,
I have been checking some internet shops in my country. Well, I could get Celtis. Not super easily, but I could.
But it has quite large leaves - from 6 to 12 cm (from 2,36 in to 4,72 in). But seems to be easygrowing also in my climate.

Now, as I fertilise with NPK two older plants before planned replanting, could I fertilise also that already replanted one? The one which looks terrible?  Smile
Could NPK help it?

Thank you,
Jan
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Re: My very first plant - tamarind

Post  Khaimraj Seepersad on Sun Jul 22, 2018 10:26 am

Jan,

when you in any way interfere with the roots, bare root or trim for repotting, it is
considered better to not fertilise and to leave alone for one month .
Additionally, if the plant does not look healthy, you should not fertilise.

If when you do fertilise, try 1/2 or 1/3 strength.

The celtis can be grown from seed or seedling, and as I have celtis, we can learn
together, share notes [ Alexandra id you are reading, same idea ]

Here is an idea to help with tap root formation.
This is a Fustic [ Chlorophora t,] in a saucer, UV resistant.
The idea is simple roots grow out, and you can easily lift, removing the tap root.

Secpnd image, how to do it with a tamarind [ I removed 10 leaves so you could see
the plant.]
Laters
Khaimraj

Fustiic -

[/url

Tamarind




Out of pot

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Re: My very first plant - tamarind

Post  JanG. on Sun Aug 05, 2018 4:52 pm

Hello Khaimraj,
that idea to grow in flat pots is interesting. I will think about it (generally I have less space, but 20 cm diameter should not be an issue).
Else I am still waiting for that new airpots - they are out of stock, so I am not sure when I get these.

As next, I decided to replant that smaller sapling - the one of which I cut under cotyledons and grow from that cutting. Today I got an information about a rule that you should do only one major thing with bonsai tree in one year. Rolling Eyes  So it seems like I have missed something again, or forgotten...  Nothing I can do, I have already replanted it. I had it in small container, which is reason why I did it. I really shall grow plants in larger containers from the very beginning in a future.
Now it is in small deep bonsai pot and I will see, if it will survive my effort. I am feeling horrible now, because I am concerned again.

Well, I will see  Neutral

Here is the result - now it will have enough space for roots. I hope it will be fine.


Here is actual photo of the plant I have in airpot. It has quite light green leaves, should I fertilise it? Because I thing I should (but now I am not sure about anything  Very Happy  ). Now it is more then one month after replanting.
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