Indoor Bonsai under LED lights.

Ryan wrote:

Ryan, is this your current setup? Sorry if it is not, this thread is so massive its hard to grasp. I believe those lights are just fine. It would be nice to hear what is the lux value where the trees are. I would guess its less than 10 000 lux. Lamps seem to be really high. If you half the distance, trees will get 4 times more light. I would put them even closer.

JWT wrote:

Ryan wrote:

Ryan, is this your current setup? Sorry if it is not, this thread is so massive its hard to grasp. I believe those lights are just fine. It would be nice to hear what is the lux value where the trees are. I would guess its less than 10 000 lux. Lamps seem to be really high. If you half the distance, trees will get 4 times more light. I would put them even closer.

I do need to get a good lux meter. I'll look into that.

This is my current setup. Everything I was told from the company was that 2 feet is the normal distance for these lights. They're intense, powerful lights that could burn the leaves if too close to the plants. That's why I have them where they are right now.

This is an idea I got several years back. After Chrismas all kinds of lanters are very cheap. They come in all colours, shapes and sizes.



I have made these little indoor greenhouses with CFL before, but this is where LED spots really shine!

I bought LEDs from ebay, from seller brillight. This is same seller as adengsolo, sells Brillight products, that are of good quality. Here's a link to the product.



I made a separator to the lantern:


Roof has holes for ventilation:


From below (could be better :


Heres older picture before I painted back glass matte black, just to show the bigger picture.



These are Sharp COBs, 4W nominal power. I measured how much they actually draw, and its only 15W, instead of 24W. I was slightly disappointed, and contacted the seller, who told me its better this way. Leds are driven with lower current to keep them cool. They are supposed to last longer. Other specs, 25 degrees beam angle, cool white, 5000 Kelvins.

In the bottom there is a "box" made of rubber. There is water much of the time, hence also algae.

After half a year I am quite pleased with this setup. My old untrusted humidity meter says it between 80-85%. Initially humidity was 100%, but I thought this was too much for the wooden structure. I drilled some holes to the separator. 2 holes are open, and now there is no fog on the glasses. Leds heat the air in the roof, this air raises and new air is sucked from where the plants are.

Light intensity is about 100 Kluxes at the top of the tree. At the lowest branch there is about 50Kluxes. Values depend a lot of where the meter is. Even illumination is not at all necessary.

This is Carmona. For ficus I would try to arrange lights so that there is more light on the lowest branches, and less in the top. This is because ficus are apically dominant. There is a lot of new growth in the bottom branch too. I don't know what that accent is . Came with one ficus. I put it there just fun, but actually it looks quite nice there. There should be third very small accent low right, I think. Little cramped display, for sure, but fun nevertheless.

I am surprised how well this little thing is doing under just 15W of light. What matters here is the intensity. Tree is actually developing - I have to cut new growth back, make the tree simpler etc, just like an outdoor tree. Tree was under metal halides before, it had 70W lamp for its own. Growth was better, for sure, meaning leaves were smaller and internodes shorter, but its ok now too.

JWT, curious...when you were using the metal halides, did you ever measure the resulting light intensity reaching the trees? If so, how did it compare to the values you are getting now?

Chris

coh wrote:JWT, curious...when you were using the metal halides, did you ever measure the resulting light intensity reaching the trees? If so, how did it compare to the values you are getting now?
Chris

It is 100 Klux. I adjust light distance so that it is same intensity as sun. Or close to it.

How did you get that intensity with metal halides without burning the foliage? I dug up an old light meter, I have no idea how accurate it might be but it measures 4000-5000 footcandles at the tops of my trees. It appears that is equivalent to 43000-53000 lux. I don't feel I can get the trees any closer to the lights because of the heat from the mh bulb. Still, I would think I'm probably providing more light than many who grow indoors, yet not getting great results.

When branches grow towards the light, it seems to me they first get burned by light intencity, not heat. (Edit - with spot lights.) This Carmona was less than a meter away from the light. Beam is 12 degrees only, really narrow spot light. It is not too warm there.

coh wrote:How did you get that intensity with metal halides without burning the foliage? I dug up an old light meter, I have no idea how accurate it might be but it measures 4000-5000 footcandles at the tops of my trees. It appears that is equivalent to 43000-53000 lux. I don't feel I can get the trees any closer to the lights because of the heat from the mh bulb. Still, I would think I'm probably providing more light than many who grow indoors, yet not getting great results.

For what its worth, I share my experiences with metal halides. I once had an open system with 3 150cm fluorescent tubes. At the time I had about 10 aquariums. Atmosphere was really, really tropical in the whole apartment. Ficus grow very well. Then I moved, got rid of all aquariums and purchased 2x400W metal halides. System was still open. I lost almost all growth. It took me several years before I finally admitted growth was better under fluorescents. I got rid of the MH, and made closed wooden light boxes with fluorescents. Again i got good growth. This is what I got at the time:



I thought at the time MH are no good, because I got better results with fluorescent. I was wrong. Reason for no growth was I ruined the conditions for the plants. Air was too dry, and hot metal halides did not help. That was the case with me, I can not say if this applies to you. Could be pests or something else.

40-50 Klux should give you adequate growth, I agree. I have measured 10-25 Klux values under fluorescents, and growth has been ok. Putting those lights closer is probably not the answer.

Thanks for the additional reply, that was what I was trying to get at with my previous post.

I've added a humidifier and also ordered an onyx...going to give that a try. After this season I will evaluate whether I want to continue trying to grow tropicals indoors. I will be considering building an enclosure so I can effectively keep the humidity higher...as I noted earlier, I tried that a couple of years ago but it may not have been tight enough to really hold enough moisture to make a difference.

Very odd to me that 2 trees (the jabot and the brush cherry) are doing so well under the same conditions as the willow ficuses, which are really starting to look pretty ragged. I mean, they are literally side by side. There are no critters on the foliage. Could be something in the ficus root systems (either bugs or some kind of disease).

Anyway, thanks again...will update when I have more info.

Chris

If you bag the ficus, like Iris has told , you will know soon enough if humidity is the issue. Just put the tree far enough from the MH, otherwise it may get really hot. That and a few Provado sticks, just in case.

A friend of mine did a great job and calculated how many LED spots are needed for a given size tree to get lighting levels comparable to natural conditions. LINK to his blog. I can not fully follow the maths , but results are very believable. Those calculations only work for spot lights.

JWT wrote:This is an idea I got several years back. After Chrismas all kinds of lanters are very cheap. They come in all colours, shapes and sizes.



I have made these little indoor greenhouses with CFL before, but this is where LED spots really shine!

I bought LEDs from ebay, from seller brillight. This is same seller as adengsolo, sells Brillight products, that are of good quality. Here's a link to the product.



I made a separator to the lantern:


Roof has holes for ventilation:


From below (could be better :


Heres older picture before I painted back glass matte black, just to show the bigger picture.



These are Sharp COBs, 4W nominal power. I measured how much they actually draw, and its only 15W, instead of 24W. I was slightly disappointed, and contacted the seller, who told me its better this way. Leds are driven with lower current to keep them cool. They are supposed to last longer. Other specs, 25 degrees beam angle, cool white, 5000 Kelvins.

In the bottom there is a "box" made of rubber. There is water much of the time, hence also algae.

After half a year I am quite pleased with this setup. My old untrusted humidity meter says it between 80-85%. Initially humidity was 100%, but I thought this was too much for the wooden structure. I drilled some holes to the separator. 2 holes are open, and now there is no fog on the glasses. Leds heat the air in the roof, this air raises and new air is sucked from where the plants are.

Light intensity is about 100 Kluxes at the top of the tree. At the lowest branch there is about 50Kluxes. Values depend a lot of where the meter is. Even illumination is not at all necessary.

This is Carmona. For ficus I would try to arrange lights so that there is more light on the lowest branches, and less in the top. This is because ficus are apically dominant. There is a lot of new growth in the bottom branch too. I don't know what that accent is . Came with one ficus. I put it there just fun, but actually it looks quite nice there. There should be third very small accent low right, I think. Little cramped display, for sure, but fun nevertheless.

I am surprised how well this little thing is doing under just 15W of light. What matters here is the intensity. Tree is actually developing - I have to cut new growth back, make the tree simpler etc, just like an outdoor tree. Tree was under metal halides before, it had 70W lamp for its own. Growth was better, for sure, meaning leaves were smaller and internodes shorter, but its ok now too.

That's what i am talking about!

Your different setups are so very inspiring, i really love the well thought out design and functionality of this one.

JWT wrote:
.

That's just crazy!

Like i said in the previous post, so very very inspiring!

When my trees are no longer in the same need of the larger space for unrestrained growth and are more in the refinement stage of there development, and i also have a better sense of there final size, then i will definitely build me something like this, maybe with a black background, that would look killer!

Got the onyx veg light and set it up yesterday. Very nice white light, very bright. Replaced a weaker CFL fixture with it so now I have a 400 W metal halide and the onyx side by side. Set the willow ficuses and a couple of other trees under the onyx, far enough that the light intensity is not too much higher than it was previously. Will gradually lower the light to increase the light intensity. We'll see what happens.

One negative is that the fan is rather loud, though I think I can get used to it (the set up is in my office where I work several hours a day). Also didn't realize the power supply had its own fan which is even louder...not on all the time but often enough.

Thanks everyone for sharing ideas and experiences.

Chris

coh wrote:Got the onyx veg light and set it up yesterday. Very nice white light, very bright. Replaced a weaker CFL fixture with it so now I have a 400 W metal halide and the onyx side by side. Set the willow ficuses and a couple of other trees under the onyx, far enough that the light intensity is not too much higher than it was previously. Will gradually lower the light to increase the light intensity. We'll see what happens.

One negative is that the fan is rather loud, though I think I can get used to it (the set up is in my office where I work several hours a day). Also didn't realize the power supply had its own fan which is even louder...not on all the time but often enough.

Thanks everyone for sharing ideas and experiences.

Chris

If i remember correctly i noticed a small sound reduction when removing the fan/heatsink cover on the Onyx, it will also make for better cooling of the unit so its a no brainier really, and it will not void your warranty since RapidLED where the ones who told me about it.

Keep us updated.

Nice photos/trees

How high above the trees is the Onyx Chris?

Ryan wrote:How high above the trees is the Onyx Chris?

Roughly 32" right now.

What a great post!
I have needed to fave pages in my bookmarks to keep notes to compile all the important points made. It helps me personally a lot to because I need to figure out a system of artificial lighting if I am to take on Bonsai seriously. It is ridiculous googling plant lighting since everyone has something to say, test, facts on top of every manufacturer claiming to have the best 'scientifically proven' product.
Finding truth in an avalanche of pseudo-science factology is looking for chicken in a McNugget
I have this huge rectangular shaft <- 4ft long -> 1.5 Wide and 4 foot space to the roof. I figured if I rigged low heat lighting (yet to decide type) with a gentle fan breeze could work as a propagation booth maybe? I need to do a lot more research to see if its worth attempting.

Anyway this post helps as a guide to the right direction
Cheers Jay

Bonsai Jay wrote:What a great post!
I have needed to fave pages in my bookmarks to keep notes to compile all the important points made. It helps me personally a lot to because I need to figure out a system of artificial lighting if I am to take on Bonsai seriously. It is ridiculous googling plant lighting since everyone has something to say, test, facts on top of every manufacturer claiming to have the best 'scientifically proven' product.
Finding truth in an avalanche of pseudo-science factology is looking for chicken in a McNugget  
I have this huge rectangular shaft <- 4ft long -> 1.5 Wide and 4 foot space to the roof. I figured if I rigged low heat lighting (yet to decide type) with a gentle fan breeze could work as a propagation booth maybe? I need to do a lot more research to see if its worth attempting.

Anyway this post helps as a guide to the right direction
Cheers Jay

Jay, i would say a 4ft x 1,5ft and 4ft of headroom is plenty area to have several trees in, even bigger ones! with the right lights for that size area and everything tuned then it can become a killer setup IMO.

I have found that when it comes to horticultural LED lights its meaningless to read anything on the company's sites except for what parts the light consist of, LEDs(and bins), drivers, optics and so on, off course you need to know what is good and bad brand LEDs(bins), drivers and all other parts as well.. and also what current the LEDs are driven at means much, IMO its a lot of stuff one need to have knowledge of to make a informed purchase.
But if you keep in mind this, then you can rule out MANY MANY company's!
If a company don't have anything to say on there site except for how great and cool there lights are, magic spectrum and bla bla bla without anything to back it up, then its time to move one right away since they are most likely to sell rebranded low quality lights from Chinese factory's that has no real quality control what so ever, in other words, over priced crap!

If you need help in deciding on what lights may fit your area and budget, just let me know and ill be glad to give you some advice on quality products.

Hi,
Thanks for your reply. I have never spent a load on lighting because I simply have no idea what is genuine, actually works, or quality lol. I bought some cheap lighting hoping to see if it works at all before investing in a a upgraded one. Heres my first test product

45W Hydroponic Plant Grow 225 LED Light Lighting Panel Indoor Growing Bulb Lamp
Brand: Excelvan
Color: 165 pcs Red and 60 pcs Blue MPN: Does Not Apply
LED Type: 2835 SMD leds Type: LED (Light Emitting Diodes)
Model: PG02 Wattage: 45W
Number of LEDs: 225 pcs EAN: Does Not Apply

I have it on a timed sequence of 6Hrs ON 6Hrs OFF repeated. Its placed just over 1 foot above 8 (12 cell) propagation trays of planted seeds with a steady temp of between 18c and 22c

Jay, the light you described is a very very low output light, ~0,2 watts per LED, it will probably work ok for seedlings or maybe even very small plants, if you are not using it as a supplemental light in a window then it has to be placed very close to the plants, the problem with keeping it to close is that the light from the blue and red LEDs don't get the distance it needs to mix properly before hitting the plants, but would think the performance you will see is maybe in the same ballpark as a CFL light of equal Watts.. hopefully.. its good that it was cheap.

Lights hours for seedlings or any non flowering plant of any size really should be somewhere around 16-18 hours lights on and 6-8 hours off, can even go full 24 hours of lights on if you want to, but it somehow fells best to let plants sleep a little.

I wish you the best with the new light, but in all honesty, don't expect much... you can always add some CFL's to get a little better performance and coverage of light.

It was a cheap light set to see how it worked and hopefully learn what kind of lighting im looking for. What do you suggest powerwise? and any brand recommendations? I also have a 12W Red Blue LED Light Bulb Led Ratio: Red(660nm 3pcs; 620~630nm 6pcs): Blue(460nm 3pcs). - No idea what any of that actually means.

Bonsailess Jay wrote:It was a cheap light set to see how it worked and hopefully learn what kind of lighting im looking for. What do you suggest powerwise? and any brand recommendations? I also have a 12W Red Blue LED Light Bulb Led Ratio: Red(660nm 3pcs; 620~630nm 6pcs): Blue(460nm 3pcs). - No idea what any of that actually means.

I think we can find you some good alternatives, but before i can give you any advice i need to know some stuff.

You said its a 4x1.5 feet area with 4 feet of headroom you want to effectively cover with artificial lights, right?

What size trees/plants will be in this area?

What is your budget for lights?

Some photos of the planed grow area would also be good to determine what light/lights will work the best for you.

Me and JWT agreed on moving the light conversation from his 'LED spotlight thread' here, this way we have most light related info in one place and its much easier for members that are interested to follow, so i took the liberty to answer your post from that thread in this one instead, hope that's cool for both of you.

Bonsailess Jay wrote:300w CFL "Dual Spectrum" Low Energy Grow & Flower Lamp, Bulb with Euro Barn Dimpled Finish Reflector
by Omega
4.9 out of 5 stars    12 customer reviews  | 4 answered questions
Price: £49.85 FREE UK delivery.
In stock.
Estimated delivery 12 - 16 Mar. when you choose Express Delivery at checkout. Details
Dispatched from and sold by Homewith Bargains Ltd.
LOW ENERGY - HIGH LUMEN OUTPUT - COSTS LESS THAN 2p PER HOUR!
6400/2700k Spectrums (Grow & Flowering Stage)
Self-Ballasting Lamp - Just plug & grow, no need for expensive heavy ballast.
8,000hrs active life - 4 x longer than HPS Lamps
CFL Euro Barn Dimpled Finish Reflector with 5m Cable, fitted UK 3pin plug

Would not waste money on that light (even if its not much), you can get even better performance and way better even light coverage for your given area with normal T5HO fixtures using less power, and it would be much cheaper using such a fixture in the long run to, CFL type lights lose there "growing power" rather quick, your eyes will not notice it, but you plants sure will!
So after around half a year to a year that light will be maybe at half its original output (for plants), so when going with CFL type fixtures its best to use fixtures with replaceable tubes, and new tubes are cheap.