Pinus elliottii var. densa

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Pinus elliottii var. densa

Post  dorothy7774 on Sun Nov 25, 2012 10:25 pm

Not so easy material, Slash pine - Pinus elliottii var. densa. I was cleaning up the tree today and decided to post it here. This tree is an ongoing process of controlling the growth, or the "outbursts" I should say. The pine is about 30 inches tall. In training since 9 years scratch (The tree or me, that's the question..).



Also, I need suggestions on how to fill in the first branch area:



Thanks!

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Re: Pinus elliottii var. densa

Post  Zach Smith on Sun Nov 25, 2012 11:25 pm

If the tree were mine, I'd eliminate the first two branches. I don't think they really add anything to this tree (which is very nice, by the way, for a difficult species).

For what it's worth.

Zach

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Re: Pinus elliottii var. densa

Post  Todd Ellis on Sun Nov 25, 2012 11:32 pm

Hi Dorothy,
I am no expert, but my first thought was to get rid of the 3 (?) smaller lower branches; like Zach said. Then work with the upper half of the tree. That large left branch is dramatic. Nice bark on this tree.
Best,
Todd

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Re: Pinus elliottii var. densa

Post  Zach Smith on Sun Nov 25, 2012 11:38 pm

Todd Ellis wrote:Hi Dorothy,
I am no expert, but my first thought was to get rid of the 3 (?) smaller lower branches; like Zach said. Then work with the upper half of the tree. That large left branch is dramatic. Nice bark on this tree.
Best,
Todd
Yeah, just saw that third branch hiding behind the tree. Good eye, Todd.

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Re: Pinus elliottii var. densa

Post  Todd Ellis on Mon Nov 26, 2012 12:02 am

Of course Dorothy may be leaving these branches on to thicken the lower trunk... pretty pine!

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Re: Pinus elliottii var. densa

Post  Billy M. Rhodes on Mon Nov 26, 2012 12:07 am

Can you safely thin the top more to allow more light to the lower branches, or mount a reflector on the bench to reflect more light on the bottom. (Not as satisfactory, but something to try if you can't thin the top.

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Re: Pinus elliottii var. densa

Post  Peter Woosley on Mon Nov 26, 2012 2:23 am

Are you able to get a chisel into the spot where that thickish branch exists the trunk and partially snap it to bring it much lower Dorothy? Alternatively you could graft, but the thick bark on this species may make it impossible. I have been working on one of them myself for a few years and i treat them exactly the same as the JBP with the exception of fertilizing and watering, the Ellioti gets watered once every three days and NO fertilizer at all. Mine is starting to conform, i dont know if the needle size will ever be as short as i would like but it has come down from the original 6 or so inches to around 2 inches so i guess there is hope for it. They are in plentiful supply here so it would be great to work them out.

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Re: Pinus elliottii var. densa

Post  -Daniel- on Mon Nov 26, 2012 5:58 am

Wow, beautiful. There are technical in order to increase the low branches but personally I would cut the two copper low (to make jin) and hold the high part of the plant, like from mine virtual.



Best regards Daniel Very Happy

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virtual tree

Post  abcd on Mon Nov 26, 2012 6:19 am

I think that the first branch is still too high and to big, but it's only a virtual tree with a photography , we don't see the other faces off the tree.
[img][/img]


[img][/img]


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Re: Pinus elliottii var. densa

Post  Khaimraj Seepersad on Mon Nov 26, 2012 9:37 am

Dorothy,

thanks for the inspiration. I have such a battle ongoing with a Honduran/Caribbean pine.

No advice to offer, but a few questions, height and average length of needles ?
Also, anything to offer on cultivation - soil mix, when to pinch etc.

Apologies for picking your brains/experience.
Thanks in advance for anything.
Khaimraj

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The Slasher..

Post  dorothy7774 on Mon Nov 26, 2012 1:08 pm

Thank you guys! Bringing down the heavy branch is most likely the way to go, I agree. The first branch used to be a sacrifice branch to fatten up the trunk, and it did.
Billy, the reflector idea is pretty interesting. Never thought of that, thanks! Yes, I can thin out the top more, definetly.
Peter, I treat the Slash pine like a JBP too, with the exemption that the Slash pine grows much faster. I have the third set of candles on the tree right now and got rid of some of the strongest ones yesterday. I do feed a lot like all my trees. I am hesitant to underwater at my location. I see lots of Slash pine (bonsai) not making it because they dry out easily around here or get fungus.

Khaimraj, the tree is about 30 inches tall. Needles have been cut yesterday. I cut the needles twice a year, once in fall to get a good aeration for the pine and once in early summer (after decandling and getting the new growth) to get more backbudding on the branches. It works very well. The pine never had a fungus problem and I do water with an overhead watering system. Cultivation is identical to JBP. However, the timing is different. I do as needed, tree sets out at least 3 sets of new growth. I water a lot and therefore feed a lot. Tree is an anorganic soil. Do you have any pictures from your Pine?

Best,
Dorothy

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Re: Pinus elliottii var. densa

Post  Khaimraj Seepersad on Mon Nov 26, 2012 2:07 pm

Thank you very much Dorothy.

Image of my tree -------- want to die laughing. If I feel brave enough a little later on in the week, but don't get your hopes up. Laughing Embarassed Embarassed

* Candling for me is none stop. In frustration I tried cutting the needles short as well. This is a lumber tree and from seed and it tries to grow straight up continuously.

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Re: Pinus elliottii var. densa

Post  ogi uyehara on Tue Nov 27, 2012 7:37 am

For me I will use the second branch but it will take time to be proportion to the other branch........Only my opinion ......[img][/img]

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Re: Pinus elliottii var. densa

Post  Guest on Tue Nov 27, 2012 8:45 am

dorothy7774 wrote:

sorry for the bad virtual, but it gives an idea... i abstracted the foliage pads so you could get a good idea of what i suggest. Offcourse the compacted foliage pads i could not really create very good, in the final design it would be more foliage offcourse.
I only used existing branches i could see on your picture, marked in RED in my virtual...and then lower them (in blue).
Then i deleted lots of foliage, get everything more compacted nearer towards the trunk, a long-term project except if you could give it some help allready with wiring existing twigs.

But in order to keep it compact in the long run, and get an interesting trunk thickness compared to weight of branches and foliage i would loose lots of branches, but not sure if that can be done because i dont see the tree on all sides. I would aim for a longterm goal, like on my virtual. Its a bit 'classic', but its not really a tree with thousands of options for a very different kind of styling. I left two jings in the design, to not overkill it.

Have fun with the tree


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Re: Pinus elliottii var. densa

Post  Xavier de Lapeyre on Tue Nov 27, 2012 9:14 am

Wow cheers
I was going to say that I was giving pinus elliottii a try too at bonsai.
But you just badly shame me with yours.
Well if it took you 9 years to get something this good, I can keep hoping that one day I might get something out of one of my slash pines too.

For your first branch area:
I dont have any virtual/graphic software right now, so I am just gonna try to explain what I have in mind.
The upper region seems pretty well established.
So I think you might leave it alone and concentrate on the middle and lower sections.
I'm guessing, but I have the impression that the three bottom branches are all branching out in the same direction [ towards the left ], I dont have a top view to confirm that.
In the middle section, the long thin branch on the left could be wired and angled [ 45-85 deg ] towards the front.
In the lower section:
1. you could allow the first branch completely at the bottom to grow freely for one or two cycles, that should thicken it sufficiently to allow it to be turned into a jinn.
2. The second tiny branch at the bottom should be taken into more consideration if it is growing out in the same direction of the branches above and below it. It could be redirected to grow in another direction or removed completely ?






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Re: Pinus elliottii var. densa

Post  Khaimraj Seepersad on Tue Nov 27, 2012 3:41 pm

Ok Dorothy,

Will see about getting an image of my pine to this section of the forum.
AND thank you.
Khaimraj

First the excuses -
[1] Can't see the image clearly
[2] This is a design, based on a flat image.

I saw an ancient tree, slowly bending down to eventually rest on the ground, perhaps near a small river, but in a sheltered valley.

The attempt -
[1] Increased the negative spaces.
[2] Raised roots where needed
[3] Suggested some expansion
[4] Perhaps a classic unglazed oval, brown reddish?
[5] Jin and back branch removal at the base.



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Re: Pinus elliottii var. densa

Post  dorothy7774 on Sun Jan 20, 2013 3:14 pm

Thank you for the drawing, Khaimraj. Certainly an additional way to go.

-Dorothy

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Re: Pinus elliottii var. densa

Post  dorothy7774 on Sun Jan 20, 2013 3:19 pm

Here are the results from decandling the strong shoots in the top (done as needed) and pulling & cutting needles:












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Re: Pinus elliottii var. densa

Post  sunip on Sun Jan 20, 2013 3:59 pm

Hello Dorothy,
When i look at the tree it is all about the decision if you want to see that thick branch as a branch or as a second trunk.
Does he want to be guy wired down?
Sunip Wink

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Re: Pinus elliottii var. densa

Post  dorothy7774 on Fri Mar 01, 2013 6:02 pm

sunip wrote:Hello Dorothy,
When i look at the tree it is all about the decision if you want to see that thick branch as a branch or as a second trunk.
Does he want to be guy wired down?
Sunip Wink

Hi sunip, I did not notice your post, sorry. The big branch will have to go and be replaced by another branch growing nearby. It is very thick, so I am starting the process to wean it off.

Here are the uptates on the Slash pine. The bottom branch has exploded with growth and diameter! Usually a Slash pine will try to abort the low branch(es) in order to grow tall. I have been constantly keeping the top weaker this year and that is what I got, a nicely thickening low branch and a very healthy tree! I am quite surprised about the low branch and believe I have found a way to nurture lower branches of Slash pines to not only catch up with the tree, but to also keep the entire vigor of the tree going.

If any of you has had success growing lower branches on Slash pine, please post. Slash pines are readily accessible in Florida and we should be able to grow more Slash pine bonsai! Fortunately I did not discard of some prebonsai candidates located in our backyard. I never thought I could get those low branches to grow like that.




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Re: Pinus elliottii var. densa

Post  Xavier de Lapeyre on Fri Aug 30, 2013 9:07 am

Images have disappeared Sad

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Re: Pinus elliottii var. densa

Post  AlainK on Fri Aug 30, 2013 9:11 am

I can see them... scratch 

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Re: Pinus elliottii var. densa

Post  dorothy7774 on Fri Aug 30, 2013 2:30 pm

Xavier de Lapeyre wrote:Images have disappeared Sad
Can you see this one? That's a picture from this morning btw:


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Re: Pinus elliottii var. densa

Post  Xavier de Lapeyre on Fri Aug 30, 2013 3:22 pm

Yes I'm seeing the images now.
Only the images in thread #131419 are still broken in my browser.
http://ibonsaiclub.forumotion.com/t12073p15-pinus-elliottii-var-densa#131419

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Re: Pinus elliottii var. densa

Post  Twisted Trees on Fri Aug 30, 2013 6:43 pm

Leave the bottom branhces...unless you want a tree that looks like every other tree that follows the rules. I think they help the lowwer trunk.

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Re: Pinus elliottii var. densa

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