General comment on collected trees

Folks,

you see a tree in the wild, and the shape is beautiful. You must have it.

BUT do you think it through to twenty years ?

Do you dress the tree in toothpick thick branches and add a canopy ---------- the green hat ?

When you try for a natural taper, how much does the growing on of the branches affect the shape of the trunk you liked so much ?
Does the trunk thicken and go more straight in quality?
Do you lose the empty / negative / birds to fly through spaces, that you put on to hold the attractive canopy --- your green hat ?

The situation is simply ------------ not just an immediate attractive shape freshly dug ---------- but a balanced shape some ten / twenty years down the road.

When you leave twigs leading to a canopy instead of branches leading to a canopy, you confuse the viewer.
Big trunk ------ tree close to you.
Twig branches ------ tree in the distance.

Anyhow, this is the problem I keep seeing to collected trees shown to early.
Still takes time to balance the appearance of the tree.
Later.
Khaimraj

* Extend to me a little patience, and I will try to give a visual example. Thank you.

Khaimraj,
Thank you for these words to ponder. To me, this separates the advanced artist from the beginners and intermediate artist. I am in the intermediate stages and during the past two years realized that I really don't know how to grow a good top.
Best,
Todd

Thanks Todd.
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Okay here is an example of a 18 " [ 49 cm ] tall collected tree. It is a fustic, and was saved from being destroyed because it grew in the wrong place, a wire fence. Permission was requested and given for the removal.
About late 2009 or so in a large amount of soil.

Notice the first branch. Been cut back 3 times and grown to a length of 6 feet or so each time. It also sub-branches as it extends, lots of leaves.

So far for the tree, no other work has been done. This year to come I will tidy the wounds and see about the first branch, before drifting onto the second.

Comments yay or nay as you wish.
Khaimraj

This one is an example of a tree I have grown for masses/domes and sinks as we have trees down here [ mango for example ] However, I still have to correct the branches for taper as they extend from the tree.

Note the first branch, I am going to extend for thickening and it may end up thickening the trunk as well. Say branch = 3/4 the size of the trunk.

Fukien tea. This tree came from China via Miami as only the trunk with tiny weird branches. Seeds never germinate.
For you to see the sinks I have to change the direction of the light and tighten the pruning.
Khaimraj

Now I want you to ask yourself, the mallsai from China, with the extreme curves.

What if those trees were only the excess plants being dumped after the better ones were chosen for growing on to trunks of say 2 to 10 inches.

How much of the curve would the branch extensions absorb through length to trunk expansion ?

Overheard conversation when I was a dragonfly in a Chinese plant nursery.

' So Guan, we have culled the best trees for on-growing masterpieces what do we do with the rest?'

'Meng, ship them to the West as - Chinese Bonsai - he chuckles.'

Later.
Khaimraj

Khaimraj Seepersad wrote:Now I want you to ask yourself, the mallsai from China, with the extreme curves.

What if those trees were only the excess plants being dumped after the better ones were chosen for growing on to trunks of say 2 to 10 inches.

How much of the curve would the branch extensions absorb through length to trunk expansion ?

Overheard conversation when I was a dragonfly in a Chinese plant nursery.

' So Guan, we have culled the best trees for on-growing masterpieces what do we do with the rest?'

'Meng, ship them to the West as - Chinese Bonsai - he chuckles.'

Later.
Khaimraj

hehe
But i dont think there's anything disturbingly wrong with those folks trying to sell their excess. In the West, most bonsai enthousiast get the idea of whats behind that...commercial reasons...and some offcourse fall in love with these magic looking cute little trees. I dont see that as an evil thing, if the West can be capitalistic and rich, well the East can trick the Westerners and sell 'em there excess as 'bonsai'

many things, and markets and economies are built on as high an economic gain you can get with as little as possible expense; why should the bonsai "industry" be an exception.

And some may try to grow these 'mallsai' into an actual prebonsai or bonsai, yes, thats a fact too. I've never put effort into it though

As for an overall comment, i agree with todd... it takes time and experience to see what needs to be done to achieve taper, to achieve a good branching, a good trunk size, etc. Also, its not always necessary for all folks to aim for the highest goals. Some may be satisfied with less as an end result, even if they know about taper and know that their tree lacks it. I think the set idea of a super tapered bonsai (in trunk and in all branching) is not a strict rule anymore as it used to be (and i'm in favour of that, and i dont mean you should do the opposite now)... I see it like this: i know trees in nature can be really impressive in a way that has nothing really to do with taper, but with other things too... so what would be wrong in a "bonsai" (lets limit that to 'tree in pot') that has not perfect taper but has a convincing image to sell to the viewer).

And yet, i also understand what you are saying too, its also true offcourse, collecting a tree that looks good, but is then grown with hardly more effort than producing a broom, is just a lack of either enthousiasm or experience. Or yes, one wants to sell it rapidly as a 'bonsai' hahahaha

greetings !

General Response-

The idea behind this topic, was to make folk aware of certain facts with regards to collected specimens.

I don't how many times one extracts a perfect object, or just a stump with potential.

However, when regrowing the branches they have to taper to be believable as a tree. Within this shape you are trying to achieve, you have the canopy, the branches and negative spaces. As the branch fattens to balance into the design, the negative spaces will change and may fall out of harmony.

So the stump you started off with, most probably will be different after the branches / branchlets have come into harmony with the trunk.
AND it may not be pleasing, and there is a good chance it will be much bigger as a tree.

I am talking about a -----believable--- and hopefully attractive, eye catching design.

If you just want a stump with a top dressing, as long as you like it, more power to you.
Later.
Khaimraj

nice topic,....

There does seem to be this incredible rush to want to show many trees that are barely half done, or styled to have the final outline but poor inner branch structure. I am showing a deciduous tree (elm) for the first time next Feb at a proper bonsai show (not only the trees first outing, but the first of my deciduous i've ever thought good enough for anything more than a club table day). I got the tree 21 years ago and it has taken this long to be ready.

originally i wanted to dig up anything and everything.........then i put most of them back again - as you realise a stump needs 15 years or more of work to look convincing - now if i wanted something similar I'd buy one that was started 10 years ago and was ready for refining. It needs realism when you look at a tree that can be collected rather than viewing through rose tinted spectacles though - if it cant be a convincing bonsai in the time period you want to invest then leave them where they are.

The real eye opener is going to shows where really good trees are displayed - then it dawns on us how much work there is to do at home. The final choice is personal of course - many growers get all the pleasure from their trees as they are, and are just happy to maintain them.

cheers Marcus

Thank you Marcus.
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A few points -

[1] Even when doing a hobby, one should put the best foot forward, and strive to better your best.

[2] As we say in Fine Art, a bad drawing will not kill the model [ anatomically ,] and thus because Bonasi is not at the level of surgery, badly done who will die [ the tree ] but more importantly ------ historically who will care?
Even the trees in so-called Museums, will not quite be the same in 100 years ---> 1000 years.

So it is just a case of personal pride [ point 1 ]

This is why I can try to make folk aware of design, time, trunk/branch thickening, changes in negative spaces [ where the birds fly through ] and sales scams.

Then I will simply just go away.

It is just graden craft, no matter the hype.
Who really cares?

Only those of us with personal pride and integrity [ spine ]
Later.
Khaimraj

[quote="marcus watts"]nice topic,....

There does seem to be this incredible rush to want to show many trees that are barely half done, or styled to have the final outline but poor inner branch structure. I am showing a deciduous tree (elm) for the first time next Feb at a proper bonsai show (not only the trees first outing, but the first of my deciduous i've ever thought good enough for anything more than a club table day). I got the tree 21 years ago and it has taken this long to be ready.

originally i wanted to dig up anything and everything.........then i put most of them back again - as you realise a stump needs 15 years or more of work to look convincing - now if i wanted something similar I'd buy one that was started 10 years ago and was ready for refining. It needs realism when you look at a tree that can be collected rather than viewing through rose tinted spectacles though - if it cant be a convincing bonsai in the time period you want to invest then leave them where they are.

The real eye opener is going to shows where really good trees are displayed - then it dawns on us how much work there is to do at home. The final choice is personal of course - many growers get all the pleasure from their trees as they are, and are just happy to maintain them.


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Just my view,

.....Maybe if we talking about "KokufuTen" or The likes of "Taiwan Bonsai creators exhibition" type of displays, maybe, just maybe all of the trees that should be displayed should be in its completed state.
But, if we are talking something like a local club show (even some national shows) I think you'll be lucky enough to see 3 trees in a completed or nearly completed stage. meaning, an exhibition will be lucky enough to have a single tree to be displayed.


Showing trees in uncompleted stage is not bad, One of the benefits of this is to show people the stage a tree must take to be a finish bonsai, another thing is to show what a good material is and how it is being dealt with by the artists....like the one posted recently by Walter Pall, To be honest, I'll rather see a tree in this stage with a very visually determined good future, rather than seeing a finish tree that was/is poorly designed or finish tree that got a very poor foundation.
If a person is trying to learn to perfect the techniques in creating high quality trees, ( I mean they will built it on their own from scrap not the bought semi finish tree/s), trees in a semi finish stage like (again) the one posted by Walter Pall would be the best trees to learn from. and if you would find the artists and manage to ask the next steps to be taken on the trees it would be an extra bonus to learn a thing or two....from a real bonsai creator that is


regards,
jun

Khaimraj Seepersad wrote:General Response-

The idea behind this topic, was to make folk aware of certain facts with regards to collected specimens.

I don't how many times one extracts a perfect object, or just a stump with potential.

However, when regrowing the branches they have to taper to be believable as a tree. Within this shape you are trying to achieve, you have the canopy, the branches and negative spaces. As the branch fattens to balance into the design, the negative spaces will change and may fall out of harmony.

So the stump you started off with, most probably will be different after the branches / branchlets have come into harmony with the trunk.
AND it may not be pleasing, and there is a good chance it will be much bigger as a tree.

I am talking about a -----believable--- and hopefully attractive, eye catching design.

If you just want a stump with a top dressing, as long as you like it, more power to you.
Later.
Khaimraj

yup, i DID get that but also wanted to add some other views to it.

and to me, bonsai is 'not only' about the purists, or about the folks that want perfectness into high detail. For many it will stop at a certain point, and they will be satisfied. Maybe the better the collected material is, the more effort you will want to put into it, because people who dont know jack sh... about bonsai, will hardly understand what is good raw material and never come to digging one up, no?

You also have folks like me, there is a purist in me, but i know with what kind of material i have the chance of working with (miracle finds or opportunities not calculated), what opportunities i now have or in short future will have, and can afford (by effort or means), and so i try to be as purist as possible with the material i get. Sometimes and with some plants/trees you must decide what to do then and where to end (if it ends at all) with a reasonable result. I'm not talking about creating brooms here regardless of what material you get or you are working with.

Also, no one has the right to reserve the hobby only to the ones who set themselves the highest standards or who have a very set mind on what a real good bonsai is or should be (no matter what styling rules you think are the right rules). In all hobbies there are people who practice it in a different way, with different material, the majority will be happy with SOME taper etcetera. Imho there's no need to mystify the hobby into a purist-only hobby. And please understand, i am not talking about people that only put a dug up tree in a pot and produce a broom in the rapidest way possible, i did mention that didnt i?