uninvited virtuals and image alterations

Page 1 of 2 1, 2  Next

View previous topic View next topic Go down

uninvited virtuals and image alterations

Post  kevin stoeveken on Thu Feb 05, 2015 1:05 pm

arthur joura's comments in his arboretum thread got me to thinking about the act of taking someone else's design and/or images and creating a "virtual" or altered image without being invited to do so by the original poster...

i may or may not have interpreted his comments correctly and being a public figure i imagine he needs to employ a high degree of subtlety when making a point that others may take an unreasonable offense to...

but regardless of that, i believe that taking the liberty of changing someone else's posted image should be done only when invited to do so, such as when directly asking for design suggestions etc...

we need to keep in mind that the altered image can go on to have a life of its own, both on and off this forum, all without the original artists consent or knowledge (and that is only 1 potential downside to the practice)

i believe this is a simple matter of common courtesy and respect of another's work...

and of course, this is only my opinion.



_________________

AAC Original Milwaukee Wi. Chapter - North America

aka beer city snake
link to ARBOR ARTS COLLECTIVE BLOG

kevin stoeveken
Member


Back to top Go down

Re: uninvited virtuals and image alterations

Post  kevin stoeveken on Thu Feb 05, 2015 3:42 pm

per a PM i rcvd, i want to stress again, that this is only my opinion and is not meant to condemn nor condone the practice.

that is why i used phrases like "i believe..."
and "this is only my opinion"


_________________

AAC Original Milwaukee Wi. Chapter - North America

aka beer city snake
link to ARBOR ARTS COLLECTIVE BLOG

kevin stoeveken
Member


Back to top Go down

Re: uninvited virtuals and image alterations

Post  jgeanangel on Thu Feb 05, 2015 4:11 pm

I agree with you Kevin and I have made this same, or similar, argument on several occasions in the past here and else where...  Beyond virtuals, I think this also applies to textual critiques as well.  There are certainly times when I invite feedback but there have been other times that I am only trying to provide information.  Unfortunately, the general response has always been these are public forums and so people can just do as they please...if you don't like it, don't post.  Not exactly a desirable response when you are trying to build a community of diverse members.  And, perhaps one of the main reasons I post so little now....

Personally I don't think being public should exclude civility....but who am I:)

John

jgeanangel
Member


Back to top Go down

Re: uninvited virtuals and image alterations

Post  appalachianOwl on Thu Feb 05, 2015 4:23 pm

I could see how one could interpret these as mildly offensive, but not to myself. We have opportunity everyday to learn from others, to see things in a "different light" than ourselves. I personally respect one's truthful opinion; may not be something I like/agree with/or want to hear. As apposed to just telling me what I want to hear and not being truthful. Criticism is great; one might lead one somewhere one needed to be, but not have got there other wise. Either way take it or leave it, why care what others think anyway? -Jacob

appalachianOwl
Member


Back to top Go down

Re: uninvited virtuals and image alterations

Post  kevin stoeveken on Thu Feb 05, 2015 4:34 pm

thanks john gee Beaurangel

i wish you would reconsider sharing with us...
from what little i have seen on youtube, i for one would enjoy seeing you post more...

and JACOB !!!
finally a name to go with the face...
or at least part of a face peeking above a log Wink

note: i did not mention the practice being "offensive"
i personally just find it discourteous and not every one will agree and that is fine.

and just so this doesn't get blown out of proportion, i realize that the majority of the time, the poster is asking for advice...

but sometimes they are not
(to which a moderator might say "well, thats what the galleries are for" and indeed they are)

_________________

AAC Original Milwaukee Wi. Chapter - North America

aka beer city snake
link to ARBOR ARTS COLLECTIVE BLOG

kevin stoeveken
Member


Back to top Go down

Re: uninvited virtuals and image alterations

Post  Richard S on Thu Feb 05, 2015 10:17 pm

Having already commented in a previous thread (you virtual was very good by the way Kevin Wink) I won't add much except to say that firstly, I agree with Jacob's comments and secondly I can't see how producing a virtual image of someone's tree to illustrate a point you're are trying make is any more offensive or disparaging than making the point in the first place.

So, unless we are all going to stop offering our opinions on other peoples work for fear of causing offence I can't see any need to stop offering virtual images to help elucidate those opinions. Of course there is no excuse for being blatantly rude but that's not something I've noticed much of on this forum I'm pleased to say. Constructive criticism of course is another matter.

Constructive criticism is just that, constructive!

Of course I also realise that some people may feel that making any comment on someone else's work amounts to being rude or discourteous but while I can respect that view I can't agree with it.

After all, what is the point of a bonsai discussion forum if we are not going to critically discuss the bonsai people post? As a novice I positively want constructive criticism. I'm labouring under the assumption that it might ultimately improve my output!

Anyhow it's an interesting question so thanks for raising it Kevin.

Regards

Richard

Richard S
Member


Back to top Go down

Re: uninvited virtuals and image alterations

Post  appalachianOwl on Thu Feb 05, 2015 11:12 pm

I had interpreted "uninvited" as "offensive", should have chosen my wording better. Civil criticism a possibility John Wink? It is though so difficult to really communicate, other than just plain hard information, on the old inter web. Trying to be more personable Kevin, and all Wink. -Jacob

appalachianOwl
Member


Back to top Go down

Re: uninvited virtuals and image alterations

Post  leatherback on Fri Feb 06, 2015 7:17 am

I personally look at fora like these as a place to get input on my own plants (Granted, I do not post too many, as I think they are not worthy yet) and to "tune" my ideas with thos of people in other places. As such I will also provide un-called for virtuals of a direction a tree might take.

For me, I consider this just a starting point for discussion (You have done this; Have you considered the alternative route here). It does not substract value of the work done by the owner, but can often quite easily convince people that the alternative is viable too. As bonsai is at ,least in part, organically alterating art a virtual is, imho, suitable way of showing what you mean.

I do not think it is rude, offensive, .. to offer a virtual without being asked. But of course, it depends on how the virtual is then presented whether the original poster may take offense.

leatherback
Member


Back to top Go down

Re: uninvited virtuals and image alterations

Post  Khaimraj Seepersad on Fri Feb 06, 2015 10:15 am

General Comment.

It never hurts to first ask.

Having drawn a good many designs for folks over the years on this forum, just ask.

As to critiques, some will be over eager to share, and depending on the level of seeing, will offer ideas, that may not work for the poster - just use some patience.

In the Art forums, you start with, No critiques please, and just show. So the poster has some amount of responsibility to the viewer.

No big problem really.
Laters.
Khaimraj

Khaimraj Seepersad
Member


Back to top Go down

More general comment...

Post  Bolero on Fri Feb 06, 2015 11:25 am

These forums are not sancro sanct and should not be taken as such...

Altering anothers picture or drawing without permission... Sure, as long as it is done in an instructive offering alternative way of the subject.

Leatherback how about showing some of your Bonsai Gardening Efforts,,, no one cares if it or they are not mature finish Bonsai...maybe we could offer some alternatives >>>???

Chas

Bolero
Member


Back to top Go down

Re: uninvited virtuals and image alterations

Post  leatherback on Fri Feb 06, 2015 11:40 am

Bolero wrote:
Leatherback how about showing some of your Bonsai Gardening Efforts,,, no one cares if it or they are not mature finish Bonsai...maybe we could offer some alternatives >>>???

Not really wanting to hijack this thread.. Have a look at the forum, I DO have some trees online.
e.g.
http://ibonsaiclub.forumotion.com/t15735-little-olive-that-got-smaller
http://ibonsaiclub.forumotion.com/t15739-airlayer-carpinus
http://ibonsaiclub.forumotion.com/t16275-pot-for-tamarix
http://ibonsaiclub.forumotion.com/t16084-cedrus-deodara-to-be-bonsai

leatherback
Member


Back to top Go down

Re: uninvited virtuals and image alterations

Post  kevin stoeveken on Fri Feb 06, 2015 12:42 pm

wow... point being missed by several replies so i will quote myself, but with a slightly larger bold italicized font Wink

note: i did not mention the practice being "offensive"
i personally just find it discourteous and not every one will agree and that is fine.

and just so this doesn't get blown out of proportion, i realize that the majority of the time, the poster is asking for advice...

but sometimes they are not


i was really hoping to just make a very small point in regards to courtesy...

and now in an effort to lighten the mood of this unintendedly deepening thread,
this invited virtual by andre was HILARIOUS !!!

Andre Beaurain wrote:
beer city snake wrote:

now, if someone wants to do a virtual for me of a nicely rounded crown flowing down along that left side with all the foliage filled in
and the right side pulled down more and filled in with foliage (keeping some of the negative space), i would be ever so grateful.

You mean something more like this.....

Legend:  Dark green  - foliage
             Light green - negative space...



Hihihih hi hihihihihihihihihihihiihihiihih hii hiii

Ps  Drawing birds is not that easy I have found....

_________________

AAC Original Milwaukee Wi. Chapter - North America

aka beer city snake
link to ARBOR ARTS COLLECTIVE BLOG

kevin stoeveken
Member


Back to top Go down

Re: uninvited virtuals and image alterations

Post  augustine on Fri Feb 06, 2015 3:02 pm

Jgeanangel's statements above illustrate a point that I have tried to make in several posts over the last few years. That is, impolite, offensive and generally stupid posts tend to alienate experienced bonsai artists that really help the community.

I've seen people disagree and spar with the likes of William Valavanis and Walter Pall. My question is how many folks on this forum are more qualified. We need to respect our seniors (not referring to age but our seniors in the art of bonsai). When dealing with true experts we shouldn't say anything but thank you unless asked to do otherwise. (Of course legitimate questions are appropriate.)

For example, we are very fortunate that Mr. Valavanis and Mr. Joura still hang out to help us but where is Walter Pall? Based on some of his posts over the years I bet he feels that American forums are not worth his time.

Another pet peeve of mine are posts that start out as " I am new and really don't know what I'm doing but this is my opinion..."

Anyway... I extend my thanks to Jgeanangel and other experience bonsai artists that share their knowledge.

Best regards to all,

Augustine

augustine
Member


Back to top Go down

Re: uninvited virtuals and image alterations

Post  fiona on Fri Feb 06, 2015 3:53 pm

augustine wrote: I bet he feels that American forums are not worth his time.
What, you mean like this one - the one that is registered in Wales?  Very Happy Twisted Evil Wink  

A lot of bonsai folk right now are plying their trade on Facebook and through their personal blogs/websites and I think that is taking a bit of traffic away from forums in general.  

I personally like to keep my options open. Facebook groups have good points as do forums, but a well-populated and knowledgeable blog is a goldmine of information - Walter Pall's being a case in point.  I have a number I read regularly and they have been giving me more inspiration and advice that I have got even from IBC.  

Incidentally, the one plus (in my opinion) of IBC forum over the IBC Facebook group is that at least on here we see people's actual trees and are not inundated with shared images of someone else's, or worse, ones taken at random from the internet.

_________________
"Espouse elucidation"
_____________________________________

my website

fiona
Member


Back to top Go down

Re: uninvited virtuals and image alterations

Post  JimLewis on Fri Feb 06, 2015 4:00 pm

Well, Walter logs in fairly often. So he's around. I'm in touch with others who have left, and the reasons vary. Many just get tired of forums; others have too much else to do, and others as we have said, seem to find Facebook a better approach. A few simply get pissed off at someone. As one who has taken the IBC from a stand-alone USENET Newsgroup, though an e-mail Listserv, then though linking the News Group and the ListServ, and through five different iterations as a Web Page, I can see that time marches on. I'm just too damned tired to march on with it.

But, to the matter at hand.

This thread has gone the way I predicted, alas.

The long-standing philosophy here has been that we ASSUME anyone who posts trees here would welcome polite comments - pro or con. And any of us who receive those comments are 100% free to ignore them -- totally. Any traffic generated by a comment also can be ignored, if we want.

I THOUGHT we all understood that the Gallery section is intended for pictures of trees, WITHOUT any follow-up comments -- but I delete several each week from the tail end of various galleries. I use to send the culprits a PM asking them to read the red text on the main page, but a lot of people seem not to have seen it so I quit that. These days, the posts just vanish.

I think we are polite enough that if someone posted a tree in Bonsai Discussion and asked that we not suggest, comment, or do a virtual, most of us would honor that -- if perhaps with a raised eyebrow. After all, there are no perfect bonsai.

_________________
Jim Lewis - lewisjk@windstream.net - Western NC - People, when Columbus discovered this country, it was plumb full of nuts and berries. And I'm right here to tell you the berries are just about all gone. Uncle Dave Macon, old-time country musician

JimLewis
Member


Back to top Go down

Re: uninvited virtuals and image alterations

Post  JimLewis on Fri Feb 06, 2015 4:11 pm

augustine wrote: I bet he feels that American forums are not worth his time.

Fiona wrote: What, you mean like this one - the one that is registered in Wales?

Well, you know us Colonials. We tend to think the world revolves around us.

_________________
Jim Lewis - lewisjk@windstream.net - Western NC - People, when Columbus discovered this country, it was plumb full of nuts and berries. And I'm right here to tell you the berries are just about all gone. Uncle Dave Macon, old-time country musician

JimLewis
Member


Back to top Go down

Re: uninvited virtuals and image alterations

Post  fiona on Fri Feb 06, 2015 6:00 pm

JimLewis wrote:    
augustine wrote: I bet he feels that American forums are not worth his time.

Fiona wrote: What, you mean like this one - the one that is registered in Wales?

Well, you know us Colonials.  We tend to think the world revolves around us.

Haha. Thought that was the English. JOKING!!!!

_________________
"Espouse elucidation"
_____________________________________

my website

fiona
Member


Back to top Go down

Re: uninvited virtuals and image alterations

Post  Richard S on Fri Feb 06, 2015 6:53 pm

Now, now Fiona!

You had your chance to divorce us but you decided to stay Wink

Regards

Richard

Richard S
Member


Back to top Go down

Re: uninvited virtuals and image alterations

Post  fiona on Fri Feb 06, 2015 7:00 pm

Razz Some folk may have.

_________________
"Espouse elucidation"
_____________________________________

my website

fiona
Member


Back to top Go down

Re: uninvited virtuals and image alterations

Post  Richard S on Fri Feb 06, 2015 7:23 pm

Somehow Fiona I thought you might say that.

Anyhow, joking aside I think Jim summed it up very well.

That's certainly how I assumed the forum was intended to work when I joined and I personally don't see a problem with that (check out the "what the forum is for" thread).

I would of course respect anyone's wishes if they specifically asked people to refrain from comments/virts but that is just common courtesy isn't it.

Still, this thread has left me a little disheartened. I genuinely can't see what it is that people find rude, offensive or discourteous about discussing each others tree (which after all no was forced to post in the first place). If as some people appear to be suggesting even the act of simply offering the suggestion of a possible alternative design constitutes rudeness then it doesn't leave much scope for "bonsai discussion" does it? silent

Mind you I'm pretty much a novice (by the standards of this forum) so according to some I'm not actually entitled to an opinion anyway.

Oh well, there you go.

Regards

Richard (the Sasanach)

Richard S
Member


Back to top Go down

Re: uninvited virtuals and image alterations

Post  coh on Fri Feb 06, 2015 8:35 pm

Richard S wrote:

Still, this thread has left me a little disheartened. I genuinely can't see what it is that people find rude, offensive or discourteous about discussing each others tree (which after all no was forced to post in the first place). If as some people appear to be suggesting even the act of simply offering the suggestion of a possible alternative design constitutes rudeness then it doesn't leave much scope for "bonsai discussion" does it? silent

Mind you I'm pretty much a novice (by the standards of this forum) so according to some I'm not actually entitled to an opinion anyway.

Richard (the Sasanach)

Yeah...this is pretty much how I feel about the issue, and one of the main reasons I no longer participate regularly on any forums (including facebook). No matter what you say or do, you offend someone.

If someone posted a photo of a tree and explicitly requested "no critiques" or "no virts", then I wouldn't offer any. But the forum would get pretty boring (and useless, really) if everyone did that. And really, what's the harm? Even if someone requests no virts, perhaps there is someone on the forum who will put up a virt that gives the original poster an idea they hadn't thought of...or spark someone else's imagination.

Chris

coh
Member


Back to top Go down

Re: uninvited virtuals and image alterations

Post  kevin stoeveken on Fri Feb 06, 2015 10:56 pm

arrrgh Mad

the simple point about posted images is being repeatedly missed and expounded upon to the point of ridiculousness...  
the point had nothing to do with written suggestions as to style, design, etc

i guess i understand that the general mentality is that every image posted (outside the galleries) is fair game for anyone to alter and repost as they wish even when it is not asked for and that the original poster must proactively ask others not to alter and repost their images... (and to try and not sound like a snob in making said request)

got it.

jim - you were right and i'm sorry i brought it up.   Rolling Eyes

_________________

AAC Original Milwaukee Wi. Chapter - North America

aka beer city snake
link to ARBOR ARTS COLLECTIVE BLOG

kevin stoeveken
Member


Back to top Go down

Re: uninvited virtuals and image alterations

Post  Vance Wood on Fri Feb 06, 2015 11:20 pm

Just remember:  The world is populated by ass-holes and lunatics like myself.  If it weren't for people like me all of you would wind up exploding because you became so full of shit  and personal hubris you simply became unable to contain yourselves and what you have become.

Vance Wood
Member


Back to top Go down

Re: uninvited virtuals and image alterations

Post  Precarious on Sat Feb 07, 2015 12:24 am

Boom

Precarious
Member


Back to top Go down

Re: uninvited virtuals and image alterations

Post  M. Frary on Sat Feb 07, 2015 4:05 am

Vance Wood wrote:Just remember:  The world is populated by ass-holes and lunatics like myself.  If it weren't for people like me all of you would wind up exploding because you became so full of shit  and personal hubris you simply became unable to contain yourselves and what you have become.


Hahaaahahahaha!

M. Frary
Member


Back to top Go down

Re: uninvited virtuals and image alterations

Post  Sponsored content Today at 10:09 am


Sponsored content


Back to top Go down

Page 1 of 2 1, 2  Next

View previous topic View next topic Back to top


 
Permissions in this forum:
You cannot reply to topics in this forum