The fun of the use of sacrificebranches, when developing bonsai

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The fun of the use of sacrificebranches, when developing bonsai

Post  Guest on Wed Oct 10, 2012 11:21 am

Hi Everybody

Is this a long sacrificebranch?....or is it just a long sacrificebranch.

This little shohin "japanese wild rose" grew this 112 cm long branch ...and it is still growing....since after midsummer....the branch has added nicely to the trunks diameter.....next year will I let it do it all ower again.


This " spiraea nipponica" is quikly gaining a taper with this sacrificebranch....during the winter will it be cut back quit a lot, and the new apex will soon be nice.


This is how the tree looked in early summer, as it was newly started up as a shohin.

Please show us your sacrificebranches here Smile

Kind regards Yvonne

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Re: The fun of the use of sacrificebranches, when developing bonsai

Post  my nellie on Wed Oct 10, 2012 1:47 pm

Hello, Yvonne!
I hope more members add their own sacrifice branches here. Maybe a useful discussion will arise...
May I ask a question, please
Yvonne Graubaek wrote:... ... This " spiraea nipponica" is quikly gaining a taper with this sacrificebranch....during the winter will it be cut back quit a lot, and the new apex will soon be nice... ...
It seems that you will attempt to grow secondary branching at later stages after the sacrifice has been cut off or am I wrong? Is there any way to develop at the same time secondary branching while growing the sacrifice branch which in most cases will have long internodes?
Thank you in advance.

my nellie
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Re: The fun of the use of sacrificebranches, when developing bonsai

Post  Guest on Wed Oct 10, 2012 3:06 pm

Hi Alexandra

The good thing abot waiting with the secondary branches on the top, is.... that they will not grow too heavy, but still have thin branches when allowed, leaving the lower branches even stronger.

After I posted the photo, and said, I would cut it back in the winter, did I think, it was maybe better to wait untill midsummer, as the top then would gain better/even taper with the trunk, before letting the new branches develope.

It can wery well be the best solution for this tree...but it is growing fast, and I will cut when I can see it is time to do it.
Hope it helps, or please ask again Smile

Kind regards Yvonne

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Re: The fun of the use of sacrificebranches, when developing bonsai

Post  my nellie on Wed Oct 10, 2012 5:18 pm

Thank you, Yvonne.
I understand what you mean.

I like very much your new suiseki avatar!

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Re: The fun of the use of sacrificebranches, when developing bonsai

Post  Khaimraj Seepersad on Wed Oct 10, 2012 9:01 pm

For the effort Auntie,
Hiya Alexandra,

Texas Ebony, but the branch extension has seed pods so I can't cut until they mature.
Later.
Khaimraj


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Re: The fun of the use of sacrificebranches, when developing bonsai

Post  Khaimraj Seepersad on Wed Oct 10, 2012 9:03 pm

Leave the avatar to meeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeee

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Re: The fun of the use of sacrificebranches, when developing bonsai

Post  leatherback on Wed Oct 10, 2012 9:10 pm

Yvonne Graubaek wrote:
Please show us your sacrificebranches here Smile

Nothing quite as extreme as your 1+ meter side branch. but still a nice progress for one season:

Early July


September

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Re: The fun of the use of sacrificebranches, when developing bonsai

Post  Khaimraj Seepersad on Thu Oct 11, 2012 3:27 pm

Here is another one for Auntie.
Later.
Auntie



I am healing two major cuts which you can get an idea of, see the arrows.



I love the ironwood because the leaves seem to float.



The trunk at near actual size.



The wound



The wound - close-up





Last edited by Khaimraj Seepersad on Sat Oct 13, 2012 7:36 pm; edited 1 time in total (Reason for editing : added in more information)

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Re: The fun of the use of sacrificebranches, when developing bonsai

Post  Guest on Thu Oct 11, 2012 4:14 pm

I find Sacrifice branches a very effective way to train trunks and sometimes even branches. Below are some of my starter projects (in spring they will be potted in larger pots).

Chinese Quince:



Trident Maple:



One thing I noticed from one of the previous pictures is two sacrifices growing from the same point on the trunk. In most cases this will create a reverse taper.

- S

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Re: The fun of the use of sacrificebranches, when developing bonsai

Post  Guest on Thu Oct 11, 2012 4:23 pm

One thing I noticed from one of the previous pictures is two sacrifices growing from the same point on the trunk. In most cases this will create a reverse taper.

- S[/quote]

Surburbia is right about this one.....I think this one is for you Leatherback, better do something about it.

It is a joy to see theese usefull sacrificebranches, also on the older tree, never stop improove a tree...hope to see more....

I will post a bigger photo of my avatar in my gallery...happy you like the stone.

Kind regards Yvonne

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Re: The fun of the use of sacrificebranches, when developing bonsai

Post  Leo Schordje on Thu Oct 11, 2012 6:28 pm

Yvonne
Great idea for a thread, during my first 20 years of dabbling with bonsai I was in the self taught phase where I thought I could learn it all from books, and the internet. I never really learned about 2 key elements in developing bonsai. The first was to start with stock MUCH bigger than the final design, for example, if you want a bonsai with a 4 inch (10 cm) diameter truck and the finish tree about 12 inches tall (33 cm) you really need to be looking at nursery stock in the 5 to 8 ft tall section of the nursery. I am in the heart of an urban jungle, so generally collecting yamadori from the wilds was not possible. I now seek out 'urban' yamadori, but back then it didn't occur to me.

The second key element I never got was sacrifice branches, and your thread illustrates nicely how and where to use them. Thank you for this post. It nicely demonstrates their use.

After 20 years in the 'self taught' wilderness, I finally joined a club ten years ago, and now I am really beginning to learn something about the actual mechanics of creating bonsai.

my Pyracantha might have mis-spelled it. (Fire Thorn)
I intend to finish this somewhere less than 10 inches tall, or for the rest of the world, less than 25cm tall.
please ignore the shoddy background, fall clean up has not happened yet.



Last edited by Leo Schordje on Fri Oct 12, 2012 1:57 am; edited 1 time in total

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Re: The fun of the use of sacrificebranches, when developing bonsai

Post  leatherback on Thu Oct 11, 2012 7:23 pm

Yvonne Graubaek wrote:One thing I noticed from one of the previous pictures is two sacrifices growing from the same point on the trunk. In most cases this will create a reverse taper.

- S

Surburbia is right about this one.....I think this one is for you Leatherback, better do something about it.
[/quote]

How would that create inverse taper? (Can't do too much about it right now, with the night-time frost and the plant still full in leave, I prefer to leave it alone till winter really hits, before I do real trimming)

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Re: The fun of the use of sacrificebranches, when developing bonsai

Post  Guest on Thu Oct 11, 2012 7:47 pm

Hi Leo

Yes, lets hope many more will show their sacrificebranches, and what they hope to gain.

Hi leatherback
Could you send a photo or two from the lowest part?. It could be usefull for you, as some may give you ideas, for what to do next year.

Kind regards Yvonne

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Re: The fun of the use of sacrificebranches, when developing bonsai

Post  bucknbonsai on Thu Oct 11, 2012 8:06 pm

yvonne, how would placing a sacrifice branch at the top produce taper, it would only produced homogenous thickness. I use multiple sacrifices at different levels to get taper.

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Re: The fun of the use of sacrificebranches, when developing bonsai

Post  MrFancyPlants on Thu Oct 11, 2012 8:11 pm

You are right in the sense that the branch will, more or less, thicken everything below it, but since there is already a lot of taper, this is not a bad thing. The sacrifice branch at the top also helps to heal wounds below it and begins the thickening process for the new apex.

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Re: The fun of the use of sacrificebranches, when developing bonsai

Post  marcus watts on Thu Oct 11, 2012 10:51 pm

bucknbonsai wrote:yvonne, how would placing a sacrifice branch at the top produce taper, it would only produced homogenous thickness. I use multiple sacrifices at different levels to get taper.

the tree in question visibly has obvious great taper in the mid / lower section, then a poor step down to the new apex - It would be fair to say the upper sacrifice branch is creating smooth taper between the lower and upper tree, therefore being in the perfect position for the required job. Understanding where taper is needed dictates where the branches are kept as Yvonne certainly knows, hence the various well placed branches in this thread

i'll get the camera out - but I've cut several off this month already !

cheers Marcus




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Re: The fun of the use of sacrificebranches, when developing bonsai

Post  Khaimraj Seepersad on Thu Oct 11, 2012 11:30 pm

Sacrifice branches, and the placement for removal and then the healing of the wound left after removal of the sacrificial branches, that's the thought for the day.
Later.
Khaimraj

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Re: The fun of the use of sacrificebranches, when developing bonsai

Post  Guest on Fri Oct 12, 2012 4:40 am

One more interesting thing I have observed about sacrifices is that wherever it grows, the trunk tends to flatten a little at that point (an extreme case is Brazilian Raintree). Maybe that is why some people grow multiple sacrifices close to each other (not at the same point). This way the trunk will grow a little rounder and not oval-ish.

- S

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Re: The fun of the use of sacrificebranches, when developing bonsai

Post  leatherback on Fri Oct 12, 2012 7:37 am

Yvonne Graubaek wrote:
Hi leatherback
Could you send a photo or two from the lowest part?. It could be usefull for you, as some may give you ideas, for what to do next year.

I'm off for the weekend (Brussel Here I come!). But next week I will have a close look, camera in hand.

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Re: The fun of the use of sacrificebranches, when developing bonsai

Post  Khaimraj Seepersad on Fri Oct 12, 2012 9:00 am

If you are smart the sacrifice branch will be a branch to just shorten and keep. Say the bottom/first branch, then you don't have to grow another sacrifice branch to heal that one and so on, and so on.

Additionally, if you spend some time experimenting and observing [ say at least 3 to 5 plants ] you can calculate using the first/second/third branch......... the size of the trunk you will end up with.
This is why I work with seeds and small cuttings.
Later.
Khaimraj

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Re: The fun of the use of sacrificebranches, when developing bonsai

Post  Guest on Fri Oct 12, 2012 9:03 am

Really nice to see the interest in this subject.

Hi Leo....A firthorn is one of the trees , I absolutely would want to find with a already usefull trunk, as they grow slow. and give a poor taper.....I have a shohin from garden nursery....the trunk does not change, and sacrificebranches is of no use on this tree....the trunk has to be "perfect" from the start.

Hi Bucknbonsai
Mrfancypants allready wrote to you, a part of my answer...saved me from crafting it...thanks mrfancypants.
BUT.....Having this sacrificebranch in the top to even level, and still say it gives taper, is right.....I have a sharp eye on it, and it will be removed in the seond the design does not benefit from it any more....a sacrificebranch can become a curse, that will do no good, if not used/placed in the prober way, or removed in time....
With leaving this topbranch untill summer, will the lover parts of the tree grow stronger, compared to the new apex later, with the many leaftips growing....the new short apex will not begin to push out new branches, before it is cut back.....delayed.

For plants who need to grow a trunk before becomming bonsaimaterial is grow up and cut back the best way for me.

For material that is about to become a bonsai, is sacrificebranches in diffrent levels no good, and will not give taper....you have to beginn in the lowest part of the trunk right ower the roots, and not ower each other, but side by side.....later can you, for giving the branches diffrent thickness, keep a sacrifice or two, on the 3 lowest branches, not up higher. Later can you do much more, as the tree developes.

Many thanks Marcus....I will be looking for photos....sacrificebrances add right up to the winter starts.

Hi Khaimraj....I place sacrificebranches on the backside of the trunk, and on the backside of branches...use them preferably only one season, as the scars become too big....if I want a sacrificebranch at the same spot next year, do I insteadt of removing it completely, leave a short end, to let a new bud grow from here, VERY close to the trunk/branch....I remove constant unwanted buds in this area, and when the selected bud is in growth, can the rest of last years branch be removed.

Hi Surburbia....it sound like the grow up, and cut back stage to me....it is not a problem I see in Denmark, but maybe someone else have something to say in this matter.

Look forward to photos leatherback

Kind regards Yvonne

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Re: The fun of the use of sacrificebranches, when developing bonsai

Post  Khaimraj Seepersad on Fri Oct 12, 2012 12:13 pm

Hello to All,

I was asked to try and explain a few of my points that I have made in this topic.

Okay, firstly, my approach to doing Bonsai is a little different to most folks, because I started young and have had enough time to experiment on one plant type [ I take notes ] and from seed or small cutting.
So for example - the Tamarind - I started with found seedlings, and just put them to grow, because I knew if I cut back a tamarind very low, it would re-sprout.

[1] That is one known property - plant will easily resprout.

Secondly, since I grew so many tamarinds from seeds, I discovered how to use the abundant shoots that come with extreme cut downs.

This then led to me drawing an idea of a Tamarind tree, using only 6 branches.
So you plant say 10 seeds and then cut back to the cotyledons. This causes a resprout.

When you have done this enough times, you can actually draw a tamarind tree and place all 6 branches. Going back to your victims, apply the removal of sprouts and allow others to lengthen.
[ I am presently testing to see just how small one can grow a tamrind tree, can we say mame' or shohin.]

Since you can more or less predict the areas with buds and thus place the 1st/2nd/3rd and so on branches, life is easy.
Tamarinds don't normally show roots, so you can bypass that stage.

If you have envisioned a 6" [ 15 cm ] tree, a 1' [ 2.5 ] trunk will be good enough for visual balance.
Tamarinds are naturally straight, and will fit to be this way until they become extremely old, probably over 10 or 20 years.

So you work out on paper where your branches are to be and try to average the branch lengths needed to trunk thicken say up to 3/4 of what you need.
When you cut these long [ sacrifice ] branches, buds will appear again, and you can start the secondary branches.

If you are trying for a lot of movement in your tree, it will require more thinking.

So A, I have adapted the idea of the sacrifice branch to hopefully leave a tree with no scars.
Preserve health always.

In fact I tend to use the - normal - sacrifice branch only on trees that can heal very well.

You may wish to test the above adapted idea on Punica, Olea, Pinus t., Ilex, Ulmus, Celtis, Podocarpus.
Note I have suggested plants that have the ability to really bud.

Please feel free to ask any questions.
Later,
Khaimraj

Oh and the above works best if you continuously get the plant to pot bind and then move to a pot 2.5 cm larger all around, and when pot bound go to another container 2.5 cm larger. Normally when you get to 15 cm deep, go wider but not deeper.
You can get good results 'quickly ' if the max height is under 30 to 38 cm.

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Re: The fun of the use of sacrificebranches, when developing bonsai

Post  Guest on Fri Oct 12, 2012 3:46 pm

Hi Khaimraj

It could be interesting to follow a tree of yours right from the beginning.....are you taking photos?

Kind regards Yvonne

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Re: The fun of the use of sacrificebranches, when developing bonsai

Post  Khaimraj Seepersad on Sat Oct 13, 2012 12:08 pm

Auntie,

I can show you examples with trees, but I don't have a digital camera and as such never imaged a tree from beginning to end.
Let me see what I can do.
Until later.
Stay Well.
Khaimraj

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Re: The fun of the use of sacrificebranches, when developing bonsai

Post  Khaimraj Seepersad on Sat Oct 13, 2012 8:02 pm

I don't know if this will help, but here goes.
Khaimraj

Sageretia t. from seed maybe a year and a half old, normally does not heal wounds, though I did get some healing. First branch is the ' sacrifice branch' Height about 6 inches [ 15 cm ] end of branch has flowers to come.



close up -



Tamarinds

About 8 inches [ 20 cm ]


About 10 inches [ 26 cm ] branch extended to thicken the trunk and itself.
This one is under a second test, soil is only sifted stone, and the cut leaves are left to decay on the soil.



About 14 inches [ 35 cm ] branch extended though the soil is spent.



This how a tamarind responds to dramatic pruning about 8 inches [ 20 cm tall ] buds coming in



Guava type showing the 'sacrifice branch', branching and thickening the trunk.



Ficus p. showing the effect of the first branch on the trunk.



Close-up



Ficus at the beginning stage of training about 14" tall [ 35 cm ] note this tree naturally weeps.














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Re: The fun of the use of sacrificebranches, when developing bonsai

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