The fun of the use of sacrificebranches, when developing bonsai

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Re: The fun of the use of sacrificebranches, when developing bonsai

Post  leatherback on Sun Oct 14, 2012 10:17 am

As promised, some shots of the cornus in the earlier post

Whole plant


Close-up of this summers' sacrifice branch, which was cut off around august. Mainly to give to bulk to the whole main stem. I am not sure whether I would trim the main trunk back to the branchlet halfway down on this image. The plant is roughly 2 years old now (Found as seedling last summer)



Close up of the branches, left to grow as start for sacrifice branches next summer. If 2 emerginbg from one point may indeed result in reverse taper / bulges, I will trim one of. Probably the right one, to enforce the feeling of curvature in the trunk:


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Re: The fun of the use of sacrificebranches, when developing bonsai

Post  Guest on Mon Oct 15, 2012 7:53 am

Hi Leatherback

The tree is very young, and I dont know how big a bonsai you are planning to create...if you want a big tree can leave it to grow, and see what happens...two or more branches from the same point can give problems.
As you already figured out, is it a very good idea to cut off the one of the two branches who will give you the reverset taper...Yes, the right is a best to remove.....

but take care...the already heavy top, with many branches can give you big problems with inverted taper. it could be an idea to just cut ower the two branches that give you the reverset taper ( keep both), and leave the tree to grow again.
This is probably what I would do....but I need the tree in my hand to finaly decide.

Kind regards Yvonne

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Re: The fun of the use of sacrificebranches, when developing bonsai

Post  leatherback on Mon Oct 15, 2012 8:16 am

Thx Yvonne,

The idea is to create a tree which will be about 1/3 higher than current, as a slender semi-formal upright.

I will not allow it to develop much in the top; The reason for leaving foliage is to avoid the top to die off (With so much happening at the base, it might just stop living on top; As I see it, cornus is a shrub species, naturally willing to sprout at the base and develop those branches that get most light, rejecting area's that don't).

The development plant was: This winter lift the shrub, work on the roots, and re-plant it on top of the tile (It is now also on a tile). Let the lower branches (One at ground level, one half-way up the trunk and one of the two which we were discussing) grow out for all of next year. This should add about 2cm diameter by the end of next year. This combined with constand pruning of any top-growth should create taper. Then, the year after, I would allow another sacrifice branch to develop at about 1/3 of the current trunk height. At that point I think I would have a 4-6cm diameter base, ending at about 1cm main stem in the top. The year after I would put it in a training tray, and start developing the crown, and let the tree grow out the last third, which should help to heal any leftover large cuts?

Everything is based around the wish to create a tree with a minimum of large cuts. The cornus in itself is a boring tree when in leaf. Only in winter the tree could be nice, with radiant red branches (Cornus sericea ?). The aim therefor is for a tree with a nice winter structure, which will be hard enough with this fast-coarse-growing species I think? But I must admit: This really is an experiment (I have not come across cornus as a bonsai)

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Re: The fun of the use of sacrificebranches, when developing bonsai

Post  Guest on Mon Oct 15, 2012 8:40 am

Hi leatherback

You have a plan, that is nice......I will sit back, and enjoy your work, as soon as you post it... with the updates that will follow.
If have not met a cornus as bonsai...maybe some people who has, will post their experiences with this specie here....
For me...I never saw a cornus, I wanted to use, as they remind me of salix ( as far as I remember), and they are not to my taste, in growinghabits.... if I found a huge yamadori would use it.

Good luck with your tree.
Kind regards Yvonne

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Re: The fun of the use of sacrificebranches, when developing bonsai

Post  JimLewis on Mon Oct 15, 2012 8:53 pm

I have a Chinese elm that has a long (2 foot), fat 1/2 inch sacrifice branch growing out from near the base. I see no appreciable difference in the trunk below the branch.

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Re: The fun of the use of sacrificebranches, when developing bonsai

Post  papymandarin on Tue Oct 16, 2012 11:12 am

so your sacrifice branch is not yet big enough (2 feet is not so much, some of my sacrifice branches meant to increase trunk size are more than 2 METERS long, on trees supposed to be 40-50cm once finished)

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Re: The fun of the use of sacrificebranches, when developing bonsai

Post  Khaimraj Seepersad on Tue Oct 16, 2012 11:33 am

Papymandarin,

thank you very much for saying that.
Guess my leaving a visual on an elm was not enough visual proof.
Each tree type, needs an individual approach, different lengths to get results.
Later.
Nothing more to say on this topic.
Khaimraj

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Re: The fun of the use of sacrificebranches, when developing bonsai

Post  Guest on Tue Oct 16, 2012 11:43 am

Hi Jim

Could you post a photo....

kind regards Yvonne

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Re: The fun of the use of sacrificebranches, when developing bonsai

Post  marcus watts on Tue Oct 16, 2012 8:58 pm

my trident is (will be) 10" high, the sacrifice upper trunk is 72" high today. 24" sacrifice branches will add nothing more than a 16th inch total circumference really to a trunk

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Re: The fun of the use of sacrificebranches, when developing bonsai

Post  JimLewis on Tue Oct 16, 2012 10:03 pm

Turns out the branch is closer to 4 feet long. Still, I think all I'm gonna get out of it is an ugly scar. Here's a quick snapshot.


_________________
Jim Lewis - lewisjk@windstream.net - Western NC - People, when Columbus discovered this country, it was plumb full of nuts and berries. And I'm right here to tell you the berries are just about all gone. Uncle Dave Macon, old-time country musician

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Re: The fun of the use of sacrificebranches, when developing bonsai

Post  Guest on Wed Oct 17, 2012 7:51 am

Hi Jim

It looks to me like the tree has gained a little from the sacrificebranch....I would cut it back, and let a bud grow from under the scar, closer to the backside next year...repeat it all, as many years as it takes.....If you suddely want to take the tree to an exhibition, is it easy to remove, and start up again right after...I will show a photo later today.

Kind regards yvonne

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Re: The fun of the use of sacrificebranches, when developing bonsai

Post  papymandarin on Wed Oct 17, 2012 10:48 am

well that's the bad side of a sacrifice branch, it's very effective in increasing the size of the trunk (if left to grow enough, but this means that it has to grow at least untill it's the same girth or more of the section it is attached to, or there will be no or few effect on trunk girth), but it leaves a scar of course, ugly or not is a matter of where this scar will be and how it will heal.
look link below for example:
http://www.bonsai4me.com/AdvTech/ATrootoverrock2.htm




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Re: The fun of the use of sacrificebranches, when developing bonsai

Post  Guest on Wed Oct 17, 2012 11:34 am

Hi Papymandarin

I dont know if Jims tree has its roots by the surface....I hope so, othervise will it be a long drag, to bring the gird all the way dawn to the surface....but still is it possible the way I explained with ONLY keeping the buds I mentioned, and remove the sacrificebranch every year. It will just take many years....Nothing I would like to spend time on.
I will take a look at your link later.


My example is this applebonsai 22 cm tall...the nebari is 9 cm wide.

One of my learningproceses, in the isolated place I live...was, and still is to play with ideas, and try them out.
This apple have the nebari created from sacrificebranches, ower many years....now it wide enough, even for my taste, and need to have the space between the nebari and the actual trunk evened out...So, for the next years will I only keep buds placed in the "waistline" 5 buds has been detected arround the trunkline.....I expect they will do their job next year.
After this job is finished, will I just leave the tree to grow older, and hopefully will it one day be worth looking at.

Kind regards Yvonne

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Re: The fun of the use of sacrificebranches, when developing bonsai

Post  papymandarin on Wed Oct 17, 2012 1:07 pm

it's indeed an interesting technique too, but probably only useful for the nebari (in a way the very large nebari on japanese maple are sometimes made in a similar way, they fuse several plants together at the base and later only keep one trunk), higher on the trunk it will probably create a more ugly bulge with girth increase only at the point where the branches are grown/cut while a unique sacrifice branch will indeed left a bigger (but single) scar et will have increase trunk diameter all the way down the trunk below it

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Re: The fun of the use of sacrificebranches, when developing bonsai

Post  Guest on Wed Oct 17, 2012 1:25 pm

Hi Popymandarin

This tree is not made by fused plants.

Kind regards Yvonne

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Re: The fun of the use of sacrificebranches, when developing bonsai

Post  papymandarin on Wed Oct 17, 2012 2:35 pm

i know, but the result will give something similar regarding the nebari enlargment

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Re: The fun of the use of sacrificebranches, when developing bonsai

Post  MikeG on Wed Oct 17, 2012 3:00 pm

Hi all. Just wondering if anyone has any examples of sacrifice branches being used for other then trunk and branch enlargement, but for energy balance. I saw an article (can't remember where) where the author was developing a pine cascade. And to draw energy downwards to develop the lower half, and slow the growth of the apically dominant top half, a sacrifice was used.

Thanks, Mike

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Re: The fun of the use of sacrificebranches, when developing bonsai

Post  Poink88 on Wed Oct 17, 2012 3:41 pm

mgallex wrote:Hi all. Just wondering if anyone has any examples of sacrifice branches being used for other then trunk and branch enlargement, but for energy balance. I saw an article (can't remember where) where the author was developing a pine cascade. And to draw energy downwards to develop the lower half, and slow the growth of the apically dominant top half, a sacrifice was used.

Mike, I've seen/read an article about this too but cannot recall where.

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Re: The fun of the use of sacrificebranches, when developing bonsai

Post  Poink88 on Wed Oct 17, 2012 3:44 pm

papymandarin wrote:so your sacrifice branch is not yet big enough (2 feet is not so much, some of my sacrifice branches meant to increase trunk size are more than 2 METERS long, on trees supposed to be 40-50cm once finished)
Is it the length of the branch or the volume of the foliage in it that matters? I believe it is the latter and I plan on doing these with branched/ramified sacrificial branch. It will be farther out though so it won't cover & weaken the main tree foliage.

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New Information

Post  Khaimraj Seepersad on Tue Oct 23, 2012 9:30 am

Scroll down to about half way on this page, and it's the section on maples.
Khaimraj

Ebihara's maples - removing a large branch.

http://bonsaitonight.com/


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Re: The fun of the use of sacrificebranches, when developing bonsai

Post  papymandarin on Wed Oct 24, 2012 11:39 am

Poink88 wrote:
papymandarin wrote:so your sacrifice branch is not yet big enough (2 feet is not so much, some of my sacrifice branches meant to increase trunk size are more than 2 METERS long, on trees supposed to be 40-50cm once finished)
Is it the length of the branch or the volume of the foliage in it that matters? I believe it is the latter and I plan on doing these with branched/ramified sacrificial branch. It will be farther out though so it won't cover & weaken the main tree foliage.

my guess is that it is more related to the weight the branch has to support rather than just the lenght /ramifications /number of leaves, so the more the bigger anyway

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Re: The fun of the use of sacrificebranches, when developing bonsai

Post  Khaimraj Seepersad on Wed Oct 24, 2012 12:33 pm

It's the food passing through. More food, more repair more build.

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Re: The fun of the use of sacrificebranches, when developing bonsai

Post  manosvince on Thu Oct 25, 2012 10:40 am

And what if all the branches are used as sb ? tongue





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Re: The fun of the use of sacrificebranches, when developing bonsai

Post  my nellie on Thu Oct 25, 2012 10:57 am

Then,
Khaimraj Seepersad wrote:... ...More food, more repair more build.
and much more fun!

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Re: The fun of the use of sacrificebranches, when developing bonsai

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