The fun of the use of sacrificebranches, when developing bonsai

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Re: The fun of the use of sacrificebranches, when developing bonsai

Post  Guest on Thu Oct 25, 2012 11:33 am

manosvince wrote:And what if all the branches are used as sb ? tongue





It will give you too fat branches on a skinny trunk....

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Re: The fun of the use of sacrificebranches, when developing bonsai

Post  Khaimraj Seepersad on Thu Oct 25, 2012 12:59 pm

Manosvince,

joking aside and I did belly laugh.

If I remember elms correctly, you need a branch of at least 6 feet [ 2 m ] to get a slight thickening, maybe 0.50 of a cm.
If you do what you are doing the entire plant might thicken evenly like a pencil.
Maybe you should trim all back to 1 leaf save the bottom branch, and allow that one to grow to say 4 m.
Perhaps a pot about 10 times that size but same depth?
Later.
Khaimraj


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Re: The fun of the use of sacrificebranches, when developing bonsai

Post  manosvince on Thu Oct 25, 2012 1:11 pm

Untill now, by letting the branches grow that long, and cut them back, and let them grow again, in one and a half year of development I can see thicker trunk and thicker primary branches. Which was the goal.

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Re: The fun of the use of sacrificebranches, when developing bonsai

Post  Guest on Fri Oct 26, 2012 1:49 am

Hi people.

i am a bit confused here. scratch

For me, the perfect example of sacrificial branch which is true to its purpose and healthy for the trees development is the Texas ebony posted by my LLB Khaimraj.

Again this is just my idea so maybe I could be wrong as well: but sacrificial branch/ branches were most of the time done on a single or at most two branches to be effective. otherwise, keeping the entire branches of the tree unchecked is "letting it grow wild" and not a "sacrificial branch".
Sacrificial branches purpose most of the time is used to thicken the primary branches. Mostly for the lower branches, to let it catch up with a thicker upper branches or to let the lower branches gain vigor. Almost all trees got the "apical dominance", which means that the tree got the growth strongest on the upper portion of the tree, and without controlling the apical dominance the lower portion would lost its balance. In nature it is not a problem, as the tree will compensate the balance of the lower branches by extending out further to catch the sunlight. this is the reason why trees got wider lower foliage/branch mass.
But on bonsai-if you would let the apical dominance took control by letting all the branches grow the lower branches would not be benefited by this technique, and in extreme cases would eventually result in branch die backs.
We often see see very good balanced bonsai with thickest branch on the lowest portion and as the branches ascend they become thinner, this is where the sacrificial branch technique would come into play. This is mostly done one or two branches at a time to concentrate/focus the energy of the growth on a particular branch targeted for this purpose.
We often see advice or suggestions, to let the tree grow wild in the ground, this technique is not "sacrificial branch" technique. but entirely different one but beneficial in gaining trunk growth.


regards,
jun Smile

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Re: The fun of the use of sacrificebranches, when developing bonsai

Post  Guest on Fri Oct 26, 2012 7:40 am

Hi Jun

Well said.

Kind regards Yvonne

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Re: The fun of the use of sacrificebranches, when developing bonsai

Post  my nellie on Fri Oct 26, 2012 10:03 am

I also understand sacrificial branches role exactly as Jun and Yvonne said.
That's the reason I have replied to Manosvince's post in the same kidding tone (perhaps the emoticon he used produced this impression...)
But it seems there was a misunderstanding (from Manosvince's part) which has now been addressed.

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Re: The fun of the use of sacrificebranches, when developing bonsai

Post  JudyB on Fri Oct 26, 2012 12:45 pm

Thank you Yvonne, and jun for this lesson in sacrifice branching application. It is one thing to hear about techniques, but there is no substitute for seeing the process and results in pictures!

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Re: The fun of the use of sacrificebranches, when developing bonsai

Post  Guest on Fri Oct 26, 2012 12:46 pm

Thank you JudyB

Kind regards Yvonne

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Re: The fun of the use of sacrificebranches, when developing bonsai

Post  Guest on Fri Oct 26, 2012 4:19 pm

I have a little addition to all theese sacrificebranches.......
The tree is a Acer Campestre yamadori, who can be followed on a another tread of mine....but this update is perfect on this tread.....later will this tree continue on the other.



The black arrow show a regular branch that was pinned dawn 2 years ago, while it was thin and new....This years did it create roots, and as soon as the long branches who kept it going, had grown the new "root" fat enough, were they cut off, later this winter will they be trimmed back to look like a nice root ( absolutely no buds will be kept)....

The red arrow show a second sacrificebranch who made the taper better than it already was ( as I have said....never stop improove the tree ) this branch is now about 70 cm long....it will be cut back, and a new will be started up in the spring, comming from the same spot....on the side, in the back of the tree.

All taper arround the two branches is new Smile

Higher up is 3 white arrows...tree buds from this year, will be let to grow for a while.....pretty soon will the 2 highest up be removed, the lowest of the 3 will stay longer, as taper can be grown here too. No need to say, they will not grow unchecked Smile .



The last photo is from a diffrent angle...the bud, to the left, from this year, can maybe add a little to the taper....must make shure it does not grow big, as I dont really want scars in the front, I will leave it for a while and see what happens.

Kind regards Yvonne


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Re: The fun of the use of sacrificebranches, when developing bonsai

Post  adam1234 on Sat Oct 27, 2012 3:53 am

From this discusion

JimLewis wrote:I have a Chinese elm that has a long (2 foot), fat 1/2 inch sacrifice branch growing out from near the base. I see no appreciable difference in the trunk below the branch.

marcus watts wrote:my trident is (will be) 10" high, the sacrifice upper trunk is 72" high today. 24" sacrifice branches will add nothing more than a 16th inch total circumference really to a trunk

The reason for the above two is that sacrifice branches...

papymandarin wrote: it's very effective in increasing the size of the trunk (if left to grow enough, but this means that it has to grow at least untill it's the same girth or more of the section it is attached to, or there will be no or few effect on trunk girth

In that case early trunk chopping was the problem for trees that are using sacrifice branches to gain trunk girth, better stick it in the ground and let it grow wild till the desired trunk size and same for trunk taper. I'd like to think for medium to large trunk trees even primary branches and taper need to be developed in the ground. I also think "Sacrificial branches purpose most of the time is used to thicken the primary branches" as Jun said but with the understanding that unless the sacrifice branch has reached the same girth as the branch it is attached to, there would be no appreciable difference in girth below the branch. It has to catch up to make a difference.

If I am wrong please correct my thinking.

Cheers,
Adam

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Re: The fun of the use of sacrificebranches, when developing bonsai

Post  Khaimraj Seepersad on Sat Oct 27, 2012 4:39 am

Perhaps someone might wish to expand this topic into ground or field growing ?

http://www.bonsai4me.com/AdvTech/ATfieldgrowing.htm

Later.
Khaimraj

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Re: The fun of the use of sacrificebranches, when developing bonsai

Post  JudyB on Sat Oct 27, 2012 2:10 pm

Yvonne, will that pinned down branch ever actually become a root? Or will it always be a branch and continue to sprout? Just wondering...

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Re: The fun of the use of sacrificebranches, when developing bonsai

Post  Guest on Sat Oct 27, 2012 2:21 pm

Hi JudyB

My plan is to remove every option for a domant bud on the end of the branch branch....then it will/can not shoot.
The end of the branch is the first internode on the branch, so it will only be able to shoot by the trunk.

Kind regards Yvonne

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Re: The fun of the use of sacrificebranches, when developing bonsai

Post  JudyB on Sat Oct 27, 2012 4:37 pm

Thank you Yvonne for the explanation. Neat little trick!

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Re: The fun of the use of sacrificebranches, when developing bonsai

Post  Guest on Thu Aug 29, 2013 4:36 pm

I have a Little update on the rose from page 1....after seeing a another members sweet rosebonsais, did I decide, the small kusamono had to be a future shohin...for shure....

This is how it look today, the trunk have pushed off/lost the old bark...new will develope...maybe not eassy to see on the Photo, but the trunk is fatter Smile 

This one 1.5 m long sacrificebranch, has done a good job sinse middsummer, and still does...the tip.. 10 cm...is still soft and growing....the tree gave me 3 flowers during summer...cant complain.

Kind regards Yvonne

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Re: The fun of the use of sacrificebranches, when developing bonsai

Post  Leo Schordje on Thu Aug 29, 2013 7:14 pm

Love it, that is one heck of a sacrifice branch. But necessary! Thanks for showing us.

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Re: The fun of the use of sacrificebranches, when developing bonsai

Post  Guest on Thu Aug 29, 2013 8:41 pm

I hope I can show you one more next year...and a even fatter trunk Smile 

Kind regards Yvonne

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Re: The fun of the use of sacrificebranches, when developing bonsai

Post  tbarkley on Thu Sep 12, 2013 11:45 pm

I purchased this Japanese Maple in early July 2013. The first pic is how it looked then, the other 3 were taken on 9/12/2013. For some reason, one of the uprights took a sharp turn for about 3 inches, then went straight back up (you can see it in the last pic). I have no idea why. I was told by Brent @ EvergreenGardenWorks (where I bought the tree) just to repot it this fall in a bigger but shorter pot and let it continue to grow wild till about May 2014. Then trim it back towards original shape (but larger) and let it grow wild till about June/July and trim again. Does that sound about right? Remember, I'm a newbe and need all the help I can get. Fall of 2014 I can start planning how I want to shape it.




I don't mean to give a plug, (well I guess I really do) but Brent @ EvergreenGardenWorks is a really good guy to work with, lots of help.

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Re: The fun of the use of sacrificebranches, when developing bonsai

Post  Marty Weiser on Fri Sep 13, 2013 4:22 am

Good advice on the wider, shallower pot. I have also read that you get the most thickening on maples if the terminals are untouched - i.e. growing long versus branching. However, this can cause issues with winter storage.

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Re: The fun of the use of sacrificebranches, when developing bonsai

Post  Guest on Fri Sep 13, 2013 7:44 am

Hi T Barkley

It is ok advise the seller gave you....as soon as the branches stop growing in the tip, can you cut them back to a more handy shape.
In late Winter or early spring, is it a good idea to pot the tree in a more shallow pot to improve the flat rootsystem.
Find the front ( if you can) and show the tree to IBCmembers, or 4 Photos, and the front can be found...this must be before the leafes is open, then will it be posible to trim the Growth, and cut back unwanted branches, before the tree is left to grow "wild" Again for the summer.

Kind regards Yvonne

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Re: The fun of the use of sacrificebranches, when developing bonsai

Post  tbarkley on Fri Sep 13, 2013 10:40 am

Marty, Yvonne,
Thanks for the feedback. Looking forward to seeing the fall colors and the what the tree looks like with no leaves.
The leaves are so thick, its hard to see what's in the middle.
At that time, I will post 4 pics for help in finding the front. I want to see if I agree with every one else. Smile

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Re: The fun of the use of sacrificebranches, when developing bonsai

Post  Brian Van Fleet on Fri Sep 13, 2013 11:26 am

Tony,
Brent is one of the good guys for sure! He's not wrong, but I'd be inclined to wait to do the repotting until spring...just as the buds are swelling. Then, the goal should be to get the roots flat, shallow, and radial.
http://nebaribonsai.com/Nebari_Bonsai/Projects_files/Evolution%20of%20Jap%20Maple.pdf

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Re: The fun of the use of sacrificebranches, when developing bonsai

Post  Nigel Parke on Fri Sep 13, 2013 3:15 pm

Brian Van Fleet wrote:Tony,
Brent is one of the good guys for sure!  He's not wrong, but I'd be inclined to wait to do the repotting until spring...just as the buds are swelling.  Then, the goal should be to get the roots flat, shallow, and radial.
http://nebaribonsai.com/Nebari_Bonsai/Projects_files/Evolution%20of%20Jap%20Maple.pdf
Brian,

Excellent progression, thanks a lot for sharing this knowledge. This is a good reference tool.

Can't really add much to the discussion Tony as I don't have a Maple, love them immensely though, its my aim to have one in the future. Two friends of mine do but where they live is a bit cooler than where I do. All the best with it though.

Regards,
Nigel

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Re: The fun of the use of sacrificebranches, when developing bonsai

Post  Guest on Fri Sep 13, 2013 4:26 pm

Hi Brian

It is a very nice link you have send...I enjoyed it wery much.

Kind regards Yvonne

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Re: The fun of the use of sacrificebranches, when developing bonsai

Post  tbarkley on Fri Sep 13, 2013 4:59 pm

Thanks for the link Brian, very good, I'll keep the .pdf for reference.

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Re: The fun of the use of sacrificebranches, when developing bonsai

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