Question for my triden maple

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Question for my triden maple

Post  Martin on Fri May 25, 2012 12:09 am





Would some one please tell me what is the problem for my triden maple.The edge of the leaves are look like burning. The trees only received morning sun. Thanks


Martin K Lau

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Re: Question for my triden maple

Post  drgonzo on Fri May 25, 2012 12:22 am

How often, and with what, are you fertilizing?

Top picture looks like a textbook example of nutrient burn (urea/Nitrogen toxicityor salt burn)
-Jay

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Re: Question for my triden maple

Post  Martin on Fri May 25, 2012 2:02 am

drgonzo wrote:How often, and with what, are you fertilizing?

Top picture looks like a textbook example of nutrient burn (urea/Nitrogen toxicityor salt burn)
-Jay

Hi Jay,
I fertilize once a month with Liquinox Fish Emulsion 5-1-1

Thanks

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Re: Question for my triden maple

Post  David Brunner on Fri May 25, 2012 2:17 am

Hello Martin Lau,

Your signature indicates Southern California, but I need to ask where in So Cal. Trident Maples don’t like very low humidity, so if you are inland it may be high temps and low ambient humidity. If you are coastal, it is likely excess salts in the soil solutions such as excess fertilizers as Jay suggests.

Davie B.

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Re: Question for my triden maple

Post  drgonzo on Fri May 25, 2012 2:38 am

MSDS data sheet for Liguinox fish emulsion lists it at being 94% Potassium Chloride! So i would conclude we're looking at a chloride toxicity from your "non burning" fertilizer...Plant roots dont easily exclude Chlorine so even small doses can be very toxic..but 94% !!! affraid
http://www.liquinox.com/PDF/msdsfish.pdf

Leach/drench with rainwater or distilled water to try to remove excess salts from the soil...and get rid of the fish emulsion!

-Jay


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Re: Question for my triden maple

Post  Martin on Fri May 25, 2012 2:59 am

drgonzo wrote:MSDS data sheet for Liguinox fish emulsion lists it at being 94% Potassium Chloride! So i would conclude we're looking at a chloride toxicity from your "non burning" fertilizer...Plant roots dont easily exclude Chlorine so even small doses can be very toxic..but 94% !!! affraid
http://www.liquinox.com/PDF/msdsfish.pdf

Leach/drench with rainwater or distilled water to try to remove excess salts from the soil...and get rid of the fish emulsion!

-Jay


I will Do that Embarassed Thanks

Martin
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Re: Question for my triden maple

Post  coh on Fri May 25, 2012 3:13 am

drgonzo wrote:MSDS data sheet for Liguinox fish emulsion lists it at being 94% Potassium Chloride! So i would conclude we're looking at a chloride toxicity from your "non burning" fertilizer...Plant roots dont easily exclude Chlorine so even small doses can be very toxic..but 94% !!! affraid
http://www.liquinox.com/PDF/msdsfish.pdf

-Jay

That can't be right! How can any fertilizer be 94% potassium chloride? It's got to be a misprint, missing a decimal (0.94%) or something, don't you think?

I know that's what is listed in the msds, but how is that even possible?

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Re: Question for my triden maple

Post  John Quinn on Fri May 25, 2012 3:14 am

Did you dilute as directed, 1/2-1 tablespoon per gallon?

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Re: Question for my triden maple

Post  drgonzo on Fri May 25, 2012 3:30 am

coh wrote:
That can't be right! How can any fertilizer be 94% potassium chloride? It's got to be a misprint, missing a decimal (0.94%) or something, don't you think?

I know that's what is listed in the msds, but how is that even possible?

I had the same thought Chris. Something is wrong here somewhere or maybe not. It must be that those chemicals are suspended in water (non hazardous Material and thus not listed in the MSDS) still your looking at 94% of the active ingredient being a metal halide salt, 5% liquid Urea, 1% non soluble fish. No wonder the leaves burned! i think I remember reading a while back that cheap fish emulsions supplement the mix with KCl in order to artificially raise the potash content.

Either way I have found there are much better sources of nutriment for Bonsai then using fish emulsions, in fact when I tried them out exclusively on some of my trees as an experiment I also encountered leaf tip and margin burns and was told it was due to the high salt content of these fertilizers, an ingredient generally not listed on the bottle.
-Jay

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Re: Question for my triden maple

Post  Martin on Fri May 25, 2012 4:51 am

John Quinn wrote:Did you dilute as directed, 1/2-1 tablespoon per gallon?

Yes, I did as the label say.

Martin Lau

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Re: Question for my triden maple

Post  coh on Fri May 25, 2012 5:19 am

drgonzo wrote:

I had the same thought Chris. Something is wrong here somewhere or maybe not. It must be that those chemicals are suspended in water (non hazardous Material and thus not listed in the MSDS) still your looking at 94% of the active ingredient being a metal halide salt, 5% liquid Urea, 1% non soluble fish. No wonder the leaves burned! i think I remember reading a while back that cheap fish emulsions supplement the mix with KCl in order to artificially raise the potash content.

Either way I have found there are much better sources of nutriment for Bonsai then using fish emulsions, in fact when I tried them out exclusively on some of my trees as an experiment I also encountered leaf tip and margin burns and was told it was due to the high salt content of these fertilizers, an ingredient generally not listed on the bottle.
-Jay

It would seem to me that if 94% of the active ingredient was KCl, then the K number of the fertilizer would have to be a lot higher than "1"...unless I've forgotten more chemistry than I realized! In any event, something is fishy here...

Someone should send an email to the company requesting clarification!

coh
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Re: Question for my triden maple

Post  marcus watts on Fri May 25, 2012 7:06 am

mmmm,

potassium cloride is 0: 0: 60
pure fish emulsion 4: 5: 2 - but every batch will be different as it is made with different fish over the year - carp, salmon, waste sea fish ect

As above if you added 94% it is impossible to end up with :1 - i think some labels are made up rather than doing the accurate calculations.

The trouble is outside the trade you can not get true pure liquid fish emulsion (i mean the raw ingredient) - it rots, ferments, smells ect as it is nothing more than old liquidised fish. Then most makers heat treat, then the FE has to be preserved - with lots of sulphuric acid to a ph of 3.5 !......- on a label (of the raw ing) they may say 'stabilisers' rather than acid preservative. Once the ph is controled the fermenting and rotting is held at bay and the product can be packed and shipped - then it gets bought buy blenders, manufacturers, re-bottlers etc and the initial FE often becomes just an ingredient in the finished product - i think lots are watered down as the pure stuff is very thick and quite 'gloopy'. We have 2000 liters of prawn emulsion on route for work (fish feed comany) atm but one drip wont go near my trees as the stabiliser is salt - a lot of salt ! 50%+.

When it came to the new fertiliser project a pure fish was needed, but due to the high levels of additives in ordinary FE we sourced an alternative manufacturing plant that breaks down the bulk fish with enzymes and then makes a spray dried powder - because it is bone dry no acids or preservatives are needed and more importantly no heat treatment - this product is in a league of its own and is very proven in 'high end' horticulture - this goes on my trees as foliar feed and as an ingredient in my bag recipe - the trees have never been better

there is 10 months between the 2 pictures - from purchase to now


Not all garden or farm fertilisers are totally suitable for culture in a bonsai pot.

cheers Marcus

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Re: Question for my triden maple

Post  coh on Fri May 25, 2012 1:32 pm

Marcus,

Thanks for the additional insight. I think I may have posted this link about the process of making fish emulsion on another thread, but I'll add it here because it gives more information. The link makes it sound like only "tiny" amounts of acid are required to get the emulsion to the proper pH...of course, "tiny" is a relative term. I think I'll stay away from the stuff...too many unknowns.

coh
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Re: Question for my triden maple

Post  drgonzo on Fri May 25, 2012 3:10 pm

Ahh Marcus, a man who knows his emulsions. Thank you for all the information and background.

The Beni is looking awesome!
-Jay

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Re: Question for my triden maple

Post  lordy on Sun May 27, 2012 1:48 pm

Chemistry and I dont relate, but something did occur regarding fish used for emulsion. There are numerous warnings regarding eating too much fish due to contaminants that they consume over time which taint the meat. Mercury comes to mind. So what happens to all that bad stuff with respect to the emulsion that results? I cant imagine that it is refined to rid the emulsion of hazardous waste?

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Re: Question for my triden maple

Post  drgonzo on Sun May 27, 2012 2:36 pm

Methyl-mercury poisoning or contamination is only an issue in high end or terminal food chain fish. That is the fish that eats the fish that eats other fish and so on, a classic example is swordfish. The methyl-mercury accumulates in the tissues growing more concentrated in larger predators as it moves up the food chain as the chemical is not purged from the fishes body. As such most emulsions are made from much smaller fish or 'junk fish' as there are more profitable uses for the "big" fish rather than grinding them into fish emulsions. So its probably not an issue here.

Disclosure: five long years in the Seafood department at a Whole foods. We had to know all about contaminants and PCB's and Mercury in fish and such.

-Jay (recovering Ex-fishmonger)


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Re: Question for my triden maple

Post  Russell Coker on Sun May 27, 2012 2:59 pm

David Brunner wrote:Hello Martin Lau,

Your signature indicates Southern California, but I need to ask where in So Cal. Trident Maples don’t like very low humidity, so if you are inland it may be high temps and low ambient humidity. If you are coastal, it is likely excess salts in the soil solutions such as excess fertilizers as Jay suggests.

Davie B.

I'd be willing to bet that humidity - or lack thereof in this case - has a lot to do with it. That, and terrible tap water. I remember seeing satsuki suffering at George Yamaguchi's nursery because of these two issues.

I'm not saying that fertilizer isn't the problem, but my thinking is that the cause is bigger than that and the fertilizer is just making it worse. What other species in your collection are suffering the same way?

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Re: Question for my triden maple

Post  drgonzo on Sun May 27, 2012 3:39 pm

Russell Coker wrote: That, and terrible tap water I'm not saying that fertilizer isn't the problem, but my thinking is that the cause is bigger than that and the fertilizer is just making it worse.

I had this same initial thought as the damage is so extensive that I'm not sure a "once monthly" treatment of fish emulsion could be the sole culprit. The more I look at this it seems to be a heavy salt burn. Is your tap water softened, i.e. do you have a water softener? or are you on municipal tap water?

-Jay

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Re: Question for my triden maple

Post  Martin on Sun May 27, 2012 7:10 pm

Jay
I use municipal tag water.

Russell,

I live in inland, and this tree is the only one have this problem. the rest are fine.and i used the same for the green maples too they don't have any problem. Thanks

Martin Lau

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Re: Question for my triden maple

Post  Peter E. on Sun May 27, 2012 9:28 pm

marcus watts wrote:mmmm,

potassium cloride is 0: 0: 60
pure fish emulsion 4: 5: 2 - but every batch will be different as it is made with different fish over the year - carp, salmon, waste sea fish ect

As above if you added 94% it is impossible to end up with :1 - i think some labels are made up rather than doing the accurate calculations.

The trouble is outside the trade you can not get true pure liquid fish emulsion (i mean the raw ingredient) - it rots, ferments, smells ect as it is nothing more than old liquidised fish. Then most makers heat treat, then the FE has to be preserved - with lots of sulphuric acid to a ph of 3.5 !......- on a label (of the raw ing) they may say 'stabilisers' rather than acid preservative. Once the ph is controled the fermenting and rotting is held at bay and the product can be packed and shipped - then it gets bought buy blenders, manufacturers, re-bottlers etc and the initial FE often becomes just an ingredient in the finished product - i think lots are watered down as the pure stuff is very thick and quite 'gloopy'. We have 2000 liters of prawn emulsion on route for work (fish feed comany) atm but one drip wont go near my trees as the stabiliser is salt - a lot of salt ! 50%+.

When it came to the new fertiliser project a pure fish was needed, but due to the high levels of additives in ordinary FE we sourced an alternative manufacturing plant that breaks down the bulk fish with enzymes and then makes a spray dried powder - because it is bone dry no acids or preservatives are needed and more importantly no heat treatment - this product is in a league of its own and is very proven in 'high end' horticulture - this goes on my trees as foliar feed and as an ingredient in my bag recipe - the trees have never been better

there is 10 months between the 2 pictures - from purchase to now


Not all garden or farm fertilisers are totally suitable for culture in a bonsai pot.

cheers Marcus

The pot size also doubled Marcus.
could this have had some effect on the growth ?.

Peter E.
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