Brazilian Raintree Flat-top Progression. Lots of Pictures - please wait to load

Please do. Make sure you get a picture of his big flat-top raintree for me

My angle was if you have more than 1 you can always experiment to see what your growing conditions can create. I have 3, this one, a small cascade cutting (off this flat-top) and a "broom form" seedling that I'm going to make into a large tree.

I'll put together a program and start a thread. Lighting is the killer. In my photos there are 3 studio strobes with a 4th on standby that we didn't use. The key light was 750W and the 2 fill lights from the side were 600W each. All lights at full power, camera was D750 at f18, ISO 100 at 1/125. These ridiculously high settings were required for the Depth Of Field.

I'll do some work on my end and keep you updated

Have a great trip!!!!
Sam

LanceMac10 wrote:Hey Kevin, can anyone else chime in? Or are you specifically interested in Sam's take? And Sam, how tall is your fine tree? 20-25 inches?

Please do chime in Lance.

I actually haven't measured it. I'll drop a tape on it tonight. I'm thinking 20" max

thanks sam !
and i'll try to remember the pic of eric's brt

and sheeee-it, lance, of course you can throw your 2 centavos in !
but now i might not see it for a day or 2

I had to bring my Raintrees in earlier than I liked, around the end of September. I cycle home for lunch and noticed the leaves would still be closed until 12:30, 1:00 o'clock. A little cooler weather than normal suggested the trees were a little stressed so I brought them in. No T-5s for the 25", but the little two trunk get's tucked under a T-5 with my small ficus'. I only defoliate to beat the inevitable leaf-drop when the tree is brought in for the winter. I'll usually wait a coupleafew weeks until the tree acclimates to leaf-prune.
Nothing was done on the smaller tree under the lights. It still dropped some leaves and slowed growth for a few weeks. About a month and a half ago, it really took off (and still crankin'!). It's already been cut back twice (only so much room!). I'll feed any indoor tree in the winter if it shows signs of growth. So, yes, my living room can be a little odorous!!! My old-lady isn't a fan, but we've got a 21 month old son, (don't laugh) whom always smells like pooh. What's the diff ? I also use liquid fert once or twice a month in addition to the granular fert from Bonsai West here in the USA.
The larger one was defoliated after observing lots of fresh buds behind the fading growth. Sam's right, make sure you have those before you do any leaf-pruning. I was expecting to wait 3-4 weeks to see some movement. Well....uhhhh...it took all of EIGHT WEEKS.....uhhhh.....panic.....remain calm...I pulled back on the water, maybe once a week or every 5th or 6th day. All the while watching latent buds to see if they stayed a "Hey, I'm still alive here!" green. My normal routine then consists of adding granular fert in addition to beginning a liquid fert regimen. Upped watering to twice a week about two weeks ago. Buds FINALLY started to swell around the same time. PHEW....did I say tough trees ? Really picking up steam now, fat buds poppin' all over. YIPPEEEE!!!!!

I have a BRT that I keep inside the house to overwinter. In a south facing window, with ordinary shop florescent fixture above. I've never had it defoliate, and it normally grows steadily all winter. I feed it low dose liquid fert every watering all winter long. Sometimes it'll have a growth spurt, and put on as much as 6" in a couple weeks. Other times it seems to just rest. It enjoys it's water! That's the only time I've seen it sulk is when it gets dryish.

I like your tree Sam it's very nice.

I'd love to see you put up a thread on photog. as I'm still trying to learn how to photograph my trees well.

Hey Sam, removing that low branch on the viewer's right really cleans up the image. Great photography as well, really nice presentation.

well sam, as embarrassed as i am to post these, here you go...
(disclaimer: i only had my pea-shooter, it was cloudy day and absolutely no way to get a clean shot w/o a cluttered background)







and a couple of up-skirts





again, appy polly loggies for the lack of quality, but i am sure you have seen good pictures of this and were curious about it's current state of affairs... per erik and andrea, it is awaiting a new slab after it grows a while in the deep pot for further development...

Thanks Kevin!!! It's amazing how much that tree has changed over the past 5-6 years.

I use it as a what to do and actually what not to do. The more I study it the more I love some things and would change others.

The beauty of bonsai is in the difference in different artists

What did you think of it?

it was kind-of funny because i was picking out a few trees before allowing my self the leisure of perusing the specimen trees, but my mom kept finding me to say i gotta go check out this one super cool tree... my mom, who has only a passing interest in what is keeping me off the streets, kept bugging me to see it... and sure enough, it was the BRT that had her worked up into such a senior lather  

as far as what i thought of it...?
well the canopy was impressive and the trunk of course had nice musculature...
i kind of think that the smaller tree is at odds with the larger one though (only in movement)
and the main tree almost had some reverse taper going along with some unappealing bulging
(but i think thats just what you get with a BRT)

i think the last couple things i mentioned might be why it is off the slab and back in a pot...
hopefully to improve the base and bring it in line with the rest of the tree.

but thats only my opinion...

still though, all in all, a very impressive tree !

I haven't seen the Wigert BRT in person, but have seen photos over the last decade or two. There is a phases of development for bonsai, from nursery stock to pre-bonsai (or freshly collected yamadori). Then these both yamadori and nursery material move from the pre-bonsai state to bonsai, they become exhibit worthy. Most spend decades in this phase, some of the Japanese species may spend half a century or more in the exhibit worthy phase. Then at some point they all enter a phase of "post-maturity", in Japan this is when a tree that may have been a Kofukuten winner 2 decades earlier, finds its way into the hands of an artist like Kimura, and then it undergoes a radical restyling. I suspect the Wigert BRT is approaching this phase. Because BRT grows so rapidly, it may have arrived there a century earlier than say a JWP, but I think this tree has matured beyond the style it is currently in. It will be interesting to see what it becomes in the future.

If the Wigert's BRT were mine, I would consider a massive restyling. But having never seen it in person, I could be wrong. It does have the key features of age, there is no substitute for time. A venerable worthy tree. How to show it to its best?

Great response Leo and really my only beef with Erik's tree. Reverse taper is super common so that doesn't bother me at all. And, I also agree with Kevin's wife. I've been there multiple times when non bonsai artists go nuts over the tree; it's very stately and extremely striking. Hands down one of my favorite trees. If you look at Luis Nel's (RIP) Buddleja Saligna in the Pierneef style, that's more of what I'd like to see on mine and what I'm striving for. Time will tell if it can be done but it might be that the Raintree can't hold that shape. I'd be happy if mine looked like Erik's but I would prefer some separation between the foliage.

If we could just figure out how to move a tree from pre-bonsai to bonsai, I think we in the US could advance a great deal.

Have a great week!!!
Sam

hey Sam awesome tree and post love the way it looks. I was wondering if I could ask you a few questions. I've only been in the world of bonsai for 6 months and I'm still learning. an I recently received a Brazilian rain tree. do you know of any good websites or books that cover this tree beyond the basic info. an my biggest question is pruning and styling like how does react to being cut does it branch out Into  two new branches form the original cut. ect....  
thanks alot I know i'm asking a lot of questions
Thanks Brandon

You're not asking too many. Ask more if you need to

As far as books, I actually can't help you there because I don't know. Wigerts Bonsai sells the Tropical Green Sheets and I've heard they're good but I haven't read them myself. BRT's are actually very easy to grow. Mine prefer to be on the moist side but not sopping wet.

They don't bifurcate the way maples do. Basically, get a branch, set it in position and then let it elongate to get some girth. Don't let it get too thick though because the other branches after it will also add to the thickness. The bark is very thin so be careful with wiring, don't let it bite in.
Once the branch is the right width if you don't have a secondary branch where you need it you'll have to cut the branch back to get it to induce budding. You then let that bud elongate so it can eventually turn into a branch. It sounds complex but it really isn't, these trees back-bud like crazy. Wire them in place and repeat the process

Have a great week!
Sam

sweet great info. now I'm just waiting for things to warm up. you say get a branch, set it in position and then let it elongate to get some girth. Don't let it get too thick though because the other branches after it will also add to the thickness. how do you stop it from getting thicker?
thanks brandon

Kevin in response to your asking for photo-ing information. Sam along with one of, if not the primer bonsai photographers has posted an article on the Triangle Bonsai Society web site. Check it out. Sam's how to photograph article

deepbonsai wrote:sweet great info. now I'm just waiting for things to warm up. you say get a branch, set it in position and then let it elongate to get some girth. Don't let it get too thick though because the other branches after it will also add to the thickness. how do you stop it from getting thicker?
thanks brandon

Basically wire it loosely when it's green and elongating. Don't touch it afterwards, in order for it to lengthen and thicken to your hearts content then cut it back when you think it's thick enough. Cut back to above the bud you want to keep, this is the only hard rule with BRT. If you don't cut to a node you will suffer dieback to the next node. Sometimes it'll go to the trunk, so to avoid that, again, cut to a node/bud. I play it safe and cut as far away from the bud as possible; most of the time cutting just underneath the last bud/node I'm removing. I'm working on this tree with Boon in a couple of weeks, I'll try to remember to take some pictures so I can explain that part better.

Does that help?

Thanks!
Sam

Doug, did you sign up for Boon? It looks like the workshop is sold out

No I did not sign up for Boon this year. And you need to be careful -- you may end up with a stick on a slab. And take pictures before and after.

PS cannon is coming out with a EOS Rebel t6, looks pretty good for a high entry level. Check it out.

I trust Boon quite a bit

I used a Rebel for about 6 months and REALLY liked it. A lot. Enough to make me question my loyalty to Nikon. Ultimately, I had too much money invested in Nikon to switch but it was really close. I even wrote a pros and cons list a la Breaking Bad style. The 5d Mark III is a beast

DPreview rates it very highly. That'd be good enough for me.

http://www.dpreview.com/previews/canon-eos-rebel-t6s-t6i

doug !
thanks for the link !

used to be a nikon guy when i was film...
now i'm canon

Basically wire it loosely when it's green and elongating. Don't touch it afterwards, in order for it to lengthen and thicken to your hearts content then cut it back when you think it's thick enough. Cut back to above the bud you want to keep, this is the only hard rule with BRT. If you don't cut to a node you will suffer dieback to the next node. Sometimes it'll go to the trunk, so to avoid that, again, cut to a node/bud. I play it safe and cut as far away from the bud as possible; most of the time cutting just underneath the last bud/node I'm removing. I'm working on this tree with Boon in a couple of weeks, I'll try to remember to take some pictures so I can explain that part better.

Does that help?

Thanks!
Sam

yeah I believe I get what your saying About die back. I tried do as much research as I could online. After you cut and it dies back do you cut back what died or do you leave it? Will cutting it cause more die back. Thank you
Brandon
P.S. You'be helped me alot thanks

deepbonsai wrote:

Basically wire it loosely when it's green and elongating. Don't touch it afterwards, in order for it to lengthen and thicken to your hearts content then cut it back when you think it's thick enough. Cut back to above the bud you want to keep, this is the only hard rule with BRT. If you don't cut to a node you will suffer dieback to the next node. Sometimes it'll go to the trunk, so to avoid that, again, cut to a node/bud. I play it safe and cut as far away from the bud as possible; most of the time cutting just underneath the last bud/node I'm removing. I'm working on this tree with Boon in a couple of weeks, I'll try to remember to take some pictures so I can explain that part better.

Does that help?

Thanks!
Sam

yeah I believe  I get what your saying About die back. I tried do as much research  as I could online. After you cut and it dies back do you cut back what died or do you leave it? Will cutting it cause more die back. Thank you
Brandon
P.S. You'be helped me alot thanks

Hey Brandon,

On page 3 of this thread you'll see a progression with dates. Look at the right side, lowest branch. At one time I thought to leave that branch to eventually fill in on the design but the more I looked at it the less I liked it. I didn't take a picture of it during this process but I cut it back very hard, about 1.5 to 2 inches from the trunk because there was a node there. That node sprouted from there and I just kept weakening it by rubbing the buds off and taking the leaves off because I knew eventually it would go away but I couldn't risk cutting it to the trunk. It eventually did die back beyond the node but was still green close to the trunk and I cut it right at that point which is what you see as a little nub in my latest picture with the black background. It's now turned brown all the way to the trunk and the branch collar has revealed itself. I could cut it back to this point right now, but I'm taking it to work on it with Boon on Monday and I'll probably cut it back then. Because it's brown all the way to the trunk, it is now safe to remove like you would any other tree and it will heal over in the future.

Unfortunately, this long process is the way to work with Brazilian Raintrees or you'll suffer severe die back. For example, if I had removed it from the beginning (when I knew it wasn't going to be kept) and cut it all the way to the trunk like a Maple, it would have died back quite a bit on the trunk. I'm not sure where that die back would end but I wouldn't want to find out on this branch and on this tree. I learned on the roots the hard way.

For those wondering why use this species for bonsai with this weird issue, the answer is very simple. This tree grows ungodly fast; you can almost see trunk and branches fatten as you sit in front of it Because of that, designs can be achieved much quicker so it's very rewarding in this slow game. For me anyway

If someone else has different experience please chime in. I'm also learning with BRT's and would appreciate the input.

Have a great week!
Sam

Hey thanks for all of the info you gave me back in march Sam. Now with the info you gave me and the research I did its a lot easier to care for the tree. An it is doing great. I have it in a training pot  right now and it is begining to flower again much to my surprise. Thanks Brandon.

Good progress. thank you for sharing.