When is a shohin no longer a shohin
+9
Billy M. Rhodes
JimLewis
Todd Ellis
marcus watts
yorasta
Mitch Thomas
DJSEND
Orion
Rob Kempinski
13 posters
Page 1 of 1
When is a shohin no longer a shohin
This Willow Leaf Fig (Ficus nerifolia) has been growing in this pot for the past 5 or 6 years. The roots are starting to conform to the pot so it's time for a big decision = put it in a larger pot and let the roots continue to expand beyond shohin size or find another suitable shohin pot and trim the roots trying to keep it a shohin.
![When is a shohin no longer a shohin 1_befo10](https://i.servimg.com/u/f45/13/55/60/08/1_befo10.jpg)
The trunk has fattened nicely and now takes up a larger portion of the front to rear distance in the pot. (BTW I made this pot).
![When is a shohin no longer a shohin 2_root10](https://i.servimg.com/u/f45/13/55/60/08/2_root10.jpg)
If I place this in a larger pot then the tree will capitalize on the extra space and soon outgrow its shohin dimensions.
Roots are definitely crowded.
![When is a shohin no longer a shohin 3_crow10](https://i.servimg.com/u/f45/13/55/60/08/3_crow10.jpg)
Out of the pot.
![When is a shohin no longer a shohin 4_out_10](https://i.servimg.com/u/f45/13/55/60/08/4_out_10.jpg)
Close up of the roots
![When is a shohin no longer a shohin 5_root10](https://i.servimg.com/u/f45/13/55/60/08/5_root10.jpg)
Bottom of root pad.
![When is a shohin no longer a shohin 6_bott10](https://i.servimg.com/u/f45/13/55/60/08/6_bott10.jpg)
First try, trying to squeeze it into a shohin silver slipper (made by John Ptt). Looks very tight.
![When is a shohin no longer a shohin 7_silv10](https://i.servimg.com/u/f45/13/55/60/08/7_silv10.jpg)
The root pad is resting on the top edge of the back of the pot. Why do I see one of Cinderella's sisters trying to wedge a fat foot into the glass slipper?
![When is a shohin no longer a shohin 9_shal10](https://i.servimg.com/u/f45/13/55/60/08/9_shal10.jpg)
How about this blue pot by Bellota Pottery (Paul Katich) of Jacksonville. Fits no problem. The tree would like this pot and probably really grow.
![When is a shohin no longer a shohin 8_blue10](https://i.servimg.com/u/f45/13/55/60/08/8_blue10.jpg)
Maybe this brown pot from a European potter that uses a beetle as a chop (can't recall the name of the potter)
![When is a shohin no longer a shohin 10_rec10](https://i.servimg.com/u/f45/13/55/60/08/10_rec10.jpg)
Plenty of room in this pot for the roots to grow.
![When is a shohin no longer a shohin 11_top10](https://i.servimg.com/u/f45/13/55/60/08/11_top10.jpg)
How about this Chinese magma and lava rectangle pot. Similar dimensions to the brown pot.
![When is a shohin no longer a shohin 12_chi10](https://i.servimg.com/u/f45/13/55/60/08/12_chi10.jpg)
Here's a shallow Sara Rayner, USA, square pot. Plenty of room for the root pad.
![When is a shohin no longer a shohin 13_sar10](https://i.servimg.com/u/f45/13/55/60/08/13_sar10.jpg)
View from above the Sara Rayner pot.
![When is a shohin no longer a shohin 14_top10](https://i.servimg.com/u/f45/13/55/60/08/14_top10.jpg)
OK, which would you choose?????
![When is a shohin no longer a shohin 1_befo10](https://i.servimg.com/u/f45/13/55/60/08/1_befo10.jpg)
The trunk has fattened nicely and now takes up a larger portion of the front to rear distance in the pot. (BTW I made this pot).
![When is a shohin no longer a shohin 2_root10](https://i.servimg.com/u/f45/13/55/60/08/2_root10.jpg)
If I place this in a larger pot then the tree will capitalize on the extra space and soon outgrow its shohin dimensions.
Roots are definitely crowded.
![When is a shohin no longer a shohin 3_crow10](https://i.servimg.com/u/f45/13/55/60/08/3_crow10.jpg)
Out of the pot.
![When is a shohin no longer a shohin 4_out_10](https://i.servimg.com/u/f45/13/55/60/08/4_out_10.jpg)
Close up of the roots
![When is a shohin no longer a shohin 5_root10](https://i.servimg.com/u/f45/13/55/60/08/5_root10.jpg)
Bottom of root pad.
![When is a shohin no longer a shohin 6_bott10](https://i.servimg.com/u/f45/13/55/60/08/6_bott10.jpg)
First try, trying to squeeze it into a shohin silver slipper (made by John Ptt). Looks very tight.
![When is a shohin no longer a shohin 7_silv10](https://i.servimg.com/u/f45/13/55/60/08/7_silv10.jpg)
The root pad is resting on the top edge of the back of the pot. Why do I see one of Cinderella's sisters trying to wedge a fat foot into the glass slipper?
![Twisted Evil](https://2img.net/i/fa/i/smiles/icon_twisted.gif)
![When is a shohin no longer a shohin 9_shal10](https://i.servimg.com/u/f45/13/55/60/08/9_shal10.jpg)
How about this blue pot by Bellota Pottery (Paul Katich) of Jacksonville. Fits no problem. The tree would like this pot and probably really grow.
![When is a shohin no longer a shohin 8_blue10](https://i.servimg.com/u/f45/13/55/60/08/8_blue10.jpg)
Maybe this brown pot from a European potter that uses a beetle as a chop (can't recall the name of the potter)
![When is a shohin no longer a shohin 10_rec10](https://i.servimg.com/u/f45/13/55/60/08/10_rec10.jpg)
Plenty of room in this pot for the roots to grow.
![When is a shohin no longer a shohin 11_top10](https://i.servimg.com/u/f45/13/55/60/08/11_top10.jpg)
How about this Chinese magma and lava rectangle pot. Similar dimensions to the brown pot.
![When is a shohin no longer a shohin 12_chi10](https://i.servimg.com/u/f45/13/55/60/08/12_chi10.jpg)
Here's a shallow Sara Rayner, USA, square pot. Plenty of room for the root pad.
![When is a shohin no longer a shohin 13_sar10](https://i.servimg.com/u/f45/13/55/60/08/13_sar10.jpg)
View from above the Sara Rayner pot.
![When is a shohin no longer a shohin 14_top10](https://i.servimg.com/u/f45/13/55/60/08/14_top10.jpg)
OK, which would you choose?????
Rob Kempinski- Member
Re: When is a shohin no longer a shohin
I like the Katich pot, but I'm not crazy over the color.
Orion- Member
Re: When is a shohin no longer a shohin
I like the Katich pot best for fit and I do like the color as well.
Cheers,
~ Jay
Cheers,
~ Jay
DJSEND- Member
Re: When is a shohin no longer a shohin
Rob
IMHO I prefer the Sara Raynor pot the best, with the beetle chop a very close second. Why? Hum, I guess the Paul katitch is very nice but I wish the blue was more of a pastel color. I think the blue is to over powering for this tree. The contrast between the pot and tree is to great and distracts me. Also I think it's still a little small. With the SR pot I like the negitive space between the nabari and the pot rim and also the earth tone glaze works better for me.
As far as the other question when is a shohin not a shohin? Well I guess when it's larger than the 9 to 10 suggested size. In my opinion you are coming close to sumo if it is not chopped soon or just go up to the next standard size. What would that be? Also to me shohin has a different set of standards as far as proportions and branch placement. This aspect alone may push you up to the next classification. Definitely food for tought.
Mitch
IMHO I prefer the Sara Raynor pot the best, with the beetle chop a very close second. Why? Hum, I guess the Paul katitch is very nice but I wish the blue was more of a pastel color. I think the blue is to over powering for this tree. The contrast between the pot and tree is to great and distracts me. Also I think it's still a little small. With the SR pot I like the negitive space between the nabari and the pot rim and also the earth tone glaze works better for me.
As far as the other question when is a shohin not a shohin? Well I guess when it's larger than the 9 to 10 suggested size. In my opinion you are coming close to sumo if it is not chopped soon or just go up to the next standard size. What would that be? Also to me shohin has a different set of standards as far as proportions and branch placement. This aspect alone may push you up to the next classification. Definitely food for tought.
Mitch
Mitch Thomas- Member
Re: When is a shohin no longer a shohin
the silver slipper (made by John Ptt) dis is the 1 color of the trunk matches with the pot
![ThumbsUp](/users/2614/30/78/28/smiles/754636.gif)
yorasta- Member
Re: When is a shohin no longer a shohin
Beetle chop european brown one for me.
I think a large percentage of shohin eventually move up in size - while you can reduce and regrow branches for many years you can't stop the trunk and nebari getting bigger and, as you show us here, eventually the lower tree is too big to make a true shohin tree. The highest quality chuhin trees I've seen are all grown up shohin ones due to the branch quality and beautiful attention to detail
Cheers Marrcus
I think a large percentage of shohin eventually move up in size - while you can reduce and regrow branches for many years you can't stop the trunk and nebari getting bigger and, as you show us here, eventually the lower tree is too big to make a true shohin tree. The highest quality chuhin trees I've seen are all grown up shohin ones due to the branch quality and beautiful attention to detail
Cheers Marrcus
marcus watts- Member
Re: When is a shohin no longer a shohin
Sara Rayner is my 1st choice. The Silver Slipper and Magma/lave are a tie for me. Great choices and
lovely tree Rob!
Todd
lovely tree Rob!
Todd
Todd Ellis- Member
Re: When is a shohin no longer a shohin
Of course, I'd always vote for keeping it small.
JimLewis- Member
Re: When is a shohin no longer a shohin
BTW, can anyone recognize this chop and distinctive pot hole? I know I should have paid more attention when I bought the pot - I think I got it at the Czech show in Prague.
![When is a shohin no longer a shohin 216](https://i.servimg.com/u/f45/13/55/60/08/216.jpg)
![When is a shohin no longer a shohin 127](https://i.servimg.com/u/f45/13/55/60/08/127.jpg)
![When is a shohin no longer a shohin 216](https://i.servimg.com/u/f45/13/55/60/08/216.jpg)
![When is a shohin no longer a shohin 127](https://i.servimg.com/u/f45/13/55/60/08/127.jpg)
Rob Kempinski- Member
Re: When is a shohin no longer a shohin
This is a close up of the flower in the background - in case you were wondering. A native iris. Unfortunately the flowers only last for a day or so and then are gone.
![When is a shohin no longer a shohin Img_2110](https://i.servimg.com/u/f45/13/55/60/08/img_2110.jpg)
![When is a shohin no longer a shohin Img_2110](https://i.servimg.com/u/f45/13/55/60/08/img_2110.jpg)
Rob Kempinski- Member
Re: When is a shohin no longer a shohin
I prefer the Sara Rayner pot because it allows a more correct placement, slightly off center and to the rear, the others would restrict you to another dead center placement.
Billy M. Rhodes- Member
Re: When is a shohin no longer a shohin
Shohin is below 30cm but above 15cm. At least for azalea. Categories are very well defined.
The size of the pot is selected to match the size of the tree. It should feel balanced. If the pot is too narrow, it will give the suggestion of the tree toppling over. If it is too wide, if will give the idea of the tree being too small. Same goes for depth. Ratio of dimensions is crucial here.
I don't think a brown pot(or rather a shade too close to the colour of the bark) for a decidious tree is a good idea. When there is no green, there are no colours at all. There should be some colour contrast if it is supposed to be shown in fall.
The size of the pot is selected to match the size of the tree. It should feel balanced. If the pot is too narrow, it will give the suggestion of the tree toppling over. If it is too wide, if will give the idea of the tree being too small. Same goes for depth. Ratio of dimensions is crucial here.
I don't think a brown pot(or rather a shade too close to the colour of the bark) for a decidious tree is a good idea. When there is no green, there are no colours at all. There should be some colour contrast if it is supposed to be shown in fall.
Last edited by Glaucus on Tue Mar 06, 2012 3:51 pm; edited 3 times in total
Glaucus- Member
Re: When is a shohin no longer a shohin
Hi Glaucus,Glaucus wrote:Shohin is below 30cm but above 15cm. At least for azalea. Categories are very well defined.
The size of the pot is selected to match the size of the tree. It should feel balanced. If the pot is too narrow, it will give the suggestion of the tree toppling over. If it is too wide, if will give the idea of the tree being too small. Same goes for depth. Ratio of dimensions is crucial here.
The quesiton was not really a matter of size but when to let a tree continue to grow to leave the shohin size category.
Rob Kempinski- Member
Re: When is a shohin no longer a shohin
For this tree, I decided to try to keep the tree a shohin (at least for a few more years) and to constrain the size by trimming the roots and by using the smallest pot that still had some room for the roots to spread. In a year or two, hopefully the roots will adopt a more oval shape. Therefore, I chose the John Pitt shallow oval. Ficus nerifolia can readily handle very shallow pots, heck they could probably live without soil.
![When is a shohin no longer a shohin 15_top10](https://i.servimg.com/u/f45/13/55/60/08/15_top10.jpg)
![When is a shohin no longer a shohin 16_tri10](https://i.servimg.com/u/f45/13/55/60/08/16_tri10.jpg)
Final image with soil and fertilizer
![When is a shohin no longer a shohin 2012_016](https://i.servimg.com/u/f45/13/55/60/08/2012_016.jpg)
Thanks for the input.
![When is a shohin no longer a shohin 15_top10](https://i.servimg.com/u/f45/13/55/60/08/15_top10.jpg)
![When is a shohin no longer a shohin 16_tri10](https://i.servimg.com/u/f45/13/55/60/08/16_tri10.jpg)
Final image with soil and fertilizer
![When is a shohin no longer a shohin 2012_016](https://i.servimg.com/u/f45/13/55/60/08/2012_016.jpg)
Thanks for the input.
Rob Kempinski- Member
Re: When is a shohin no longer a shohin
Glaucus wrote:Shohin is below 30cm but above 15cm. At least for azalea. Categories are very well defined
I see 25cm quoted a lot more for entries to shohin bonsai displays these days, (tree above soil) and talking to the real enthusiasts this is very much seen as the upper size limit - almost like trying to squeeze a few more years out of a tree that is ready to move onwards and upwards.
this tree still is in a sumo type proportion so looks ok squeezed in the little pot, but once the trunk base fattens a bit more the shohin days are gone and it will be ready to make a jump up in height and width - i think this is equally important as a chuhin tree 1cm into the catagory just looks like an overgrown shohin!
nice pot for the little tree, keep the bug one for a few years ttime
cheers Marcus
marcus watts- Member
Re: When is a shohin no longer a shohin
Sizes of tree really aren't that precise and Shohin fits into that theory too. Shohin is as much about the feel of a small tree as it is about size. Shame that Mark and Ritta Cooper is in Japan at the moment as he is far more articulate on this subject
will baddeley- Member
Re: When is a shohin no longer a shohin
Hi Rob, pot was made by Martin Ašenbrenner, czech potter and bonsai enthusiast.
Andreasdeutscher- Member
Re: When is a shohin no longer a shohin
Andreasdeutscher wrote:Hi Rob, pot was made by Martin Ašenbrenner, czech potter and bonsai enthusiast.
Hi Andreasdeutscher, Thanks for the info. I will make a note of that.
I did use the pot, with a chunky Chinese elm - What we call Drake Elm in Florida. This was collected by a club member a few years ago and sold at our club's annual auction. I made a massive chop and originally had it resting flat (rotated about 35degrees counter clockwise from the first photo.) Since roots were only forming on one side, I hollowed it out and tilted it. A friend named it "The Barnacle."
![When is a shohin no longer a shohin Elm_in10](https://i.servimg.com/u/f45/13/55/60/08/elm_in10.jpg)
The before shot several years ago.
![When is a shohin no longer a shohin Chines11](https://i.servimg.com/u/f45/13/55/60/08/chines11.jpg)
Rob Kempinski- Member
Re: When is a shohin no longer a shohin
Pardon me for saying so, but I saw a bit more potential before reducing the tree's height.
carlos- Member
Re: When is a shohin no longer a shohin
carlos wrote:Pardon me for saying so, but I saw a bit more potential before reducing the tree's height.
No problem, you want to buy it?
![Very Happy](https://2img.net/i/fa/i/smiles/icon_biggrin.png)
![Very Happy](https://2img.net/i/fa/i/smiles/icon_biggrin.png)
Rob Kempinski- Member
Re: When is a shohin no longer a shohin
Rob Kempinski wrote:carlos wrote:Pardon me for saying so, but I saw a bit more potential before reducing the tree's height.
No problem, you want to buy it?![]()
![]()
not really
carlos- Member
Re: When is a shohin no longer a shohin
carlos wrote:Rob Kempinski wrote:carlos wrote:Pardon me for saying so, but I saw a bit more potential before reducing the tree's height.
No problem, you want to buy it?![]()
![]()
not really
Shucks, I figured you could grow it in the ground for 5 or 10 years and recapture its potential. Oh well.
Rob Kempinski- Member
Re: When is a shohin no longer a shohin
The more I look at it, the more I like that little fatty warts and all.
Orion- Member
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