Re: Kofu Bonsai Kai California Juniper Dig 2012

Vance Wood Mon Dec 03, 2012 12:42 pm

With all due respects I am not going to argue with you about this issue, you live in Belgium and I doubt you have first hand knowledge of what's going on in California. I love mother earth but I love people more.

Guest Mon Dec 03, 2012 12:50 pm

yup, please dont, but since you brought 'environmental gestapo' up... Wink

Vance Wood Mon Dec 03, 2012 2:18 pm

OH----it's the metaphor you don't like. I should have said the EPA----virtually the same thing but there you go. EPA it will be.

Guest Mon Dec 03, 2012 2:29 pm

Vance Wood wrote:OH----it's the metaphor you don't like. I should have said the EPA----virtually the same thing but there you go. EPA it will be.

no its not, its the whole thing ;-), even the socalled anecdote about the lizard vs tractor ;-). Not just the gestapo thing Wink

. that was a lot in 4 sentences to take Wink

.

You know this is an international forum, so you know what you post, and if you then dont care about explaining your point and just want to say 'gestapo' or a simplified story about a lizard; well thats your choice but dont be offended if another person wants to say the opposite. I'm more a fan of reason.

Case clased for me, like you put it i'm not going to make it an issue

Bugeye Mon Dec 03, 2012 3:22 pm

yves71277 wrote:
Vance Wood wrote:OH----it's the metaphor you don't like. I should have said the EPA----virtually the same thing but there you go. EPA it will be.

no its not, its the whole thing ;-), even the socalled anecdote about the lizard vs tractor ;-). Not just the gestapo thing . that was a lot in 4 sentences to take .

You know this is an international forum, so you know what you post, and if you then dont care about explaining your point and just want to say 'gestapo' or a simplified story about a lizard; well thats your choice but dont be offended if another person wants to say the opposite. I'm more a fan of reason.

Case clased for me, like you put it i'm not going to make it an issue

You already did.

**fiona** Mon Dec 03, 2012 3:26 pm

An appeal for a bit of calm please.

With due respect, this was a thread (started, incidentally, 9 months ago) whose intention was to show what a respected bonsai society had done during its annual event. There was no dissention on the topic then and I see no merit in dragging it down now.

We've had loads of debates on collecting, we know each country/state has different laws and yes we know some people don't always play nice with those laws. Please feel free to start a new thread on the ethics of running over anecdotal and quite possibly hypothetical lizards, but be warned that I shall be intervening to baffle you with bullshit over whether Vance's phrase was metaphor, synecdoche, metonym or whatever.

Smiley face Laughing

to show this is a polite request.

Guest Mon Dec 03, 2012 3:26 pm

Bugeye wrote:
yves71277 wrote:
Vance Wood wrote:OH----it's the metaphor you don't like. I should have said the EPA----virtually the same thing but there you go. EPA it will be.

no its not, its the whole thing ;-), even the socalled anecdote about the lizard vs tractor ;-). Not just the gestapo thing . that was a lot in 4 sentences to take .

You know this is an international forum, so you know what you post, and if you then dont care about explaining your point and just want to say 'gestapo' or a simplified story about a lizard; well thats your choice but dont be offended if another person wants to say the opposite. I'm more a fan of reason.

Case clased for me, like you put it i'm not going to make it an issue

You already did.

...any more, if that clears up the sky...

**fiona** Mon Dec 03, 2012 3:42 pm

The End

Al Polito Mon Dec 10, 2012 8:21 pm

I echo what Bob Shimon says. I was taught to leave as much foliage as possible, particularly when collecting a conifer. Deciduous trees can be more forgiving when collecting, depending on how they use and store energy, their relative vigor, and when you're collecting them. My friends and I have been collecting Subalpine fir, Mountain hemlock and Engelmann spruce up here in the cascades; I have yet to lose one tree (knock on wood). Let's see how the manzanitas I collected this fall will do though! We put them all in 100 percent pumice. For extra care, I run a misting system that gives about a minute of mist every hour, and I will cover the box or pot with plastic and not water it until the pumice has dried out, showing that roots are starting to absorb the water. Trying a less high-maintenance approach with my latest Engelmann spruce though.

As far as deciduous material goes, we have been collecting Vine maples up here too, and they can loose pretty much everything and will sprout new branches and roots when put in 100 percent pumice and kept hydrated.

Vance Wood Mon Dec 10, 2012 8:52 pm

Al Polito wrote:I echo what Bob Shimon says. I was taught to leave as much foliage as possible, particularly when collecting a conifer. Deciduous trees can be more forgiving when collecting, depending on how they use and store energy, their relative vigor, and when you're collecting them. My friends and I have been collecting Subalpine fir, Mountain hemlock and Engelmann spruce up here in the cascades; I have yet to lose one tree (knock on wood). Let's see how the manzanitas I collected this fall will do though! We put them all in 100 percent pumice. For extra care, I run a misting system that gives about a minute of mist every hour, and I will cover the box or pot with plastic and not water it until the pumice has dried out, showing that roots are starting to absorb the water. Trying a less high-maintenance approach with my latest Engelmann spruce though.

As far as deciduous material goes, we have been collecting Vine maples up here too, and they can loose pretty much everything and will sprout new branches and roots when put in 100 percent pumice and kept hydrated.

I am curious as to the nature of Manzanitas you have been collecting, are they the little young ones or the old, knarled, twisted driftwood type? I am also curious as to your success rate?

Al Polito Wed Dec 12, 2012 2:06 am

The two I collected (thought they were one tree but turns out two!) have trunk diameters of about an inch with very snaky movement and deadwood running along entire trunk length. Not big and gnarly. As for success, I won't know until probably next spring if they survive. This is my second attempt at manzanita; the first was a tiny kinnickinnick that didn't make it. Greg Brenden has had some success with them as have others.

kora Wed Dec 12, 2012 5:38 am

I think its high time to chime in on this topic: I have participated in a number of these digs with Kofu-kai, before my knees and other parts of my body gave out; The digs are on land, which is also cattle range land, in the mohavi desert-the owner is only too happy, to have some of the junipers removed-this gives his cattle more plant material-young shoots of desert grasses to eat-otherwise he'd have to pull out all the trees with a bulldozer-and another VERY IMPORTANT aspect of juniper collecting in the California desert, is the fact, that the main tree is rarely dug, it is usually the ground layered branch of the main tree, that is removed, while the main tree is preserved. The mohavi desert is an area which has also become a resting ground for hundreds if not thousands of airplanes, a former secondary landing site for the space shuttle and numerous other military and civilian testing sites. In addition there is at least one vast solar power station. The environmental impact, which these juniper digs involve is so minimal, that it is not even a matter of consideration, lest we all stop living! kora

abcd Wed Dec 12, 2012 6:06 am

AL POLITO, i think we are using the good technic for collecting trees, cutting no foliage or a minimum, turface (pumice ) is an amazing soil , and with a misting system for pinus or juniperus , i lost 1 or 2 % of trees only.
I use also oligos based components of seawater , that is very efficient.

Guest Wed Dec 12, 2012 9:27 am

kora wrote:I think its high time to chime in on this topic: I have participated in a number of these digs with Kofu-kai, before my knees and other parts of my body gave out; The digs are on land, which is also cattle range land, in the mohavi desert-the owner is only too happy, to have some of the junipers removed-this gives his cattle more plant material-young shoots of desert grasses to eat-otherwise he'd have to pull out all the trees with a bulldozer-and another VERY IMPORTANT aspect of juniper collecting in the California desert, is the fact, that the main tree is rarely dug, it is usually the ground layered branch of the main tree, that is removed, while the main tree is preserved. The mohavi desert is an area which has also become a resting ground for hundreds if not thousands of airplanes, a former secondary landing site for the space shuttle and numerous other military and civilian testing sites. In addition there is at least one vast solar power station. The environmental impact, which these juniper digs involve is so minimal, that it is not even a matter of consideration, lest we all stop living! kora

Fiona asked to put a rest to this discussion, but i see this reply has not been deleted.
Anyway, i dont see any cattle, space shuttles etc on the second picture...
i am informing myself, so when i get answers, i'll let you all know

**fiona** Wed Dec 12, 2012 10:17 am

yves71277 wrote: Fiona asked to put a rest to this discussion, but i see this reply has not been deleted.

Actually, I asked for an end to the silly part of the discussion. Kora actually gave us an informative response which will have allayed any lingering doubts that a minority of people may have had about this dig.

Now, can we let it go please, and just look forward to future posts on how well the trees did.

Guest Wed Dec 12, 2012 10:21 am

fiona wrote:
yves71277 wrote: Fiona asked to put a rest to this discussion, but i see this reply has not been deleted.
Actually, I asked for an end to the silly part of the discussion. Kora actually gave us an informative response which will have allayed any lingering doubts that a minority of people may have had about this dig.

Now, can we let it go please, and just look forward to future posts on how well the trees did.

well, like i also posted, i'm also informing myself, when i have anything to add (when i get reply) i'll clear it out.
bye

Guest Wed Dec 12, 2012 2:10 pm

fiona wrote:Whatever happened to trust.

its not that... its posting a topic about digging out without the poster being able to say anything about permits, nor replying to questions or remarks as such (not only from me fiona). I am willing to trust, but i am not willing, on a topic like this, to just knod and say yes i believe it all. because no one could actually tell us how the permits work, i am only informing myself now, like dorothy suggested in one reply.

i am not the devil, but i am willing to be nailed to the cross in this topic. If the reply i get is clear enough for everyone to understand why and how permits work, i'll stand corrected, you can bring on the nails :-).

greetings

rockm Wed Dec 12, 2012 2:18 pm

You're confusing two things.

THIS dig is on private land. The owner has given his enthusiastic permission for digging to take place.

As for permits needed to dig on PUBLIC land in the west, there are more than one kind of permit and more than one kind of federally-owned land. The National Forest Service, the Bureau of Land Managment can (and do) continue to issue collection permits. The number of permits can vary from site to site, depending upon local conditions.

In the eastern U.S., things are different still. National Parks don't allow collection of anything. National Forests DO, but it depends greatly on local officials.

coh Wed Dec 12, 2012 2:26 pm

yves71277 wrote:
fiona wrote:Whatever happened to trust.

its not that... its posting a topic about digging out without the poster being able to say anything about permits, nor replying to questions or remarks as such (not only from me fiona). I am willing to trust, but i am not willing, on a topic like this, to just knod and say yes i believe it all. because no one could actually tell us how the permits work, i am only informing myself now, like dorothy suggested in one reply.
greetings

I'm not sure what the fuss is about. It was clearly stated twice on page 1...before you even started posting on this thread...that these trees were dug with the owners permission on private land.

Guest Wed Dec 12, 2012 2:32 pm

rockm wrote:You're confusing two things.

THIS dig is on private land. The owner has given his enthusiastic permission for digging to take place.

As for permits needed to dig on PUBLIC land in the west, there are more than one kind of permit and more than one kind of federally-owned land. The National Forest Service, the Bureau of Land Managment can (and do) continue to issue collection permits. The number of permits can vary from site to site, depending upon local conditions.

In the eastern U.S., things are different still. National Parks don't allow collection of anything. National Forests DO, but it depends greatly on local officials.

So you are saying there's a law that anything what is private (like this mountain/hill), anything goes? you can visit the clubs site, its on the slopes, in the hills, on the mountains, not exactly in the direct surroundings of a farm, not exactly cattle land. I'm informing myself on that part, thats actually what i wanted to say. I just want to know about digging in an area thats likely to fall under some sort of nature protection, even if its private. Whatever happens in your garden offcourse i dont mind because i know thats a different thing.

On public land yes, i know permits can be issued but since everyone says its private land, i'm not informing myself on that part.

thank you anyway !

Vance Wood Wed Dec 12, 2012 2:47 pm

kora wrote:I think its high time to chime in on this topic: I have participated in a number of these digs with Kofu-kai, before my knees and other parts of my body gave out; The digs are on land, which is also cattle range land, in the mohavi desert-the owner is only too happy, to have some of the junipers removed-this gives his cattle more plant material-young shoots of desert grasses to eat-otherwise he'd have to pull out all the trees with a bulldozer-and another VERY IMPORTANT aspect of juniper collecting in the California desert, is the fact, that the main tree is rarely dug, it is usually the ground layered branch of the main tree, that is removed, while the main tree is preserved. The mohavi desert is an area which has also become a resting ground for hundreds if not thousands of airplanes, a former secondary landing site for the space shuttle and numerous other military and civilian testing sites. In addition there is at least one vast solar power station. The environmental impact, which these juniper digs involve is so minimal, that it is not even a matter of consideration, lest we all stop living! kora

You know that, I know that, anyone with a degree of common sense knows that, however; there are people inhabiting certain government agencies who believe that the truth is negotiable and for the most part what they say it is. So far we as bonsai growers are not in their sites----for now. To make the argument that this is private property is once more common sense but let me tell you what has been going on here in Michigan. For years people have been buying pieces of property in the northern part of the state. Their little holiday get-away cabin in the woods. They will get permits approved and signed off on, they pay their money for the property but once they start to build, and it has happened numerous times, the EPA comes along and tells the owner they cannot build because their field agent has just today designated their property a wet land. Private property rights? Just thought you should know this kind of thing does happen.

Guest Wed Dec 12, 2012 2:53 pm

Vance Wood wrote:
kora wrote:I think its high time to chime in on this topic: I have participated in a number of these digs with Kofu-kai, before my knees and other parts of my body gave out; The digs are on land, which is also cattle range land, in the mohavi desert-the owner is only too happy, to have some of the junipers removed-this gives his cattle more plant material-young shoots of desert grasses to eat-otherwise he'd have to pull out all the trees with a bulldozer-and another VERY IMPORTANT aspect of juniper collecting in the California desert, is the fact, that the main tree is rarely dug, it is usually the ground layered branch of the main tree, that is removed, while the main tree is preserved. The mohavi desert is an area which has also become a resting ground for hundreds if not thousands of airplanes, a former secondary landing site for the space shuttle and numerous other military and civilian testing sites. In addition there is at least one vast solar power station. The environmental impact, which these juniper digs involve is so minimal, that it is not even a matter of consideration, lest we all stop living! kora

You know that, I know that, anyone with a degree of common sense knows that, however; there are people inhabiting certain government agencies who believe that the truth is negotiable and for the most part what they say it is. So far we as bonsai growers are not in their sites----for now. To make the argument that this is private property is once more common sense but let me tell you what has been going on here in Michigan. For years people have been buying pieces of property in the northern part of the state. Their little holiday get-away cabin in the woods. They will get permits approved and signed off on, they pay their money for the property but once they start to build, and it has happened numerous times, the EPA comes along and tells the owner they cannot build because their field agent has just today designated their property a wet land. Private property rights? Just thought you should know this kind of thing does happen.

yes, that does/can happen. It happens everywhere, more so in europe where land space in some countries get smaller and smaller and smaller... more people you know, so every once in a while the laws about land status changes, has to be changed. Here the few pieces of nature thats left, have also been built with cabins, now they're slowly seeing what was done wrong in the past. Things like that always bring painful decisions, here mostly a compensation too except if its totally illegally built.
But generalising this is not a good thing

Guest Wed Dec 12, 2012 2:56 pm

on the other hand, big private investors and the very rich few who could enter politics as well (yeah sure i'm not naive), every once in a while put pressure to politicians to change laws, so they would benefit from a change of land status...lets say nature land or farming land with a certain ecological value, into lets say building land. Who's wrong in that case? And if you want to know thats true, well in the seventies we've had ourself a huge feast here and i'm talking of big areas, with also lots of smaller private owners so the protest would be mildered offcourse, no one complaining about that right

coh Wed Dec 12, 2012 2:57 pm

I'm not going to get involved in the political issues that have been raised (and I have no doubt "things" happen all the time), but I have spent a few moments looking up info on collecting plants on private and public land. It seems that, in general, there are few restrictions on collecting on privately owned land, even if the plant is considered endangered (which I doubt applies to junipers). For instance, from http://www.fs.fed.us/wildflowers/rareplants/conservation/lawsandregulations.shtml

Section 9 of the (Endangered Species) Act describes protections for endangered plants. One set of protections involves transport and trade. Import or export of endangered plants from the United States is prohibited, as is receipt, delivery, or sale in interstate or foreign commerce. Another set of protections involves collecting or damage. It is prohibited to remove and reduce to possession or maliciously damage or destroy endangered plants on Federal lands. For private lands, it is illegal to collect, damage, or destroy endangered plants in violation of a state law including state criminal trespass law. Very few states prohibit landowners from collecting or destroying endangered plants on their own private property, so endangered plants on private property have minimal protection. Protections for threatened plants are similar to those for endangered plants, but the protections were created through regulations published by the Fish and Wildlife Service rather than being stated directly in the Act.

Guest Wed Dec 12, 2012 2:59 pm

coh wrote:I'm not going to get involved in the political issues that have been raised (and I have no doubt "things" happen all the time), but I have spent a few moments looking up info on collecting plants on private and public land. It seems that, in general, there are few restrictions on collecting on privately owned land, even if the plant is considered endangered (which I doubt applies to junipers). For instance, from http://www.fs.fed.us/wildflowers/rareplants/conservation/lawsandregulations.shtml

Section 9 of the (Endangered Species) Act describes protections for endangered plants. One set of protections involves transport and trade. Import or export of endangered plants from the United States is prohibited, as is receipt, delivery, or sale in interstate or foreign commerce. Another set of protections involves collecting or damage. It is prohibited to remove and reduce to possession or maliciously damage or destroy endangered plants on Federal lands. For private lands, it is illegal to collect, damage, or destroy endangered plants in violation of a state law including state criminal trespass law. Very few states prohibit landowners from collecting or destroying endangered plants on their own private property, so endangered plants on private property have minimal protection. Protections for threatened plants are similar to those for endangered plants, but the protections were created through regulations published by the Fish and Wildlife Service rather than being stated directly in the Act.

thank you, i think its now best to wait and see what i get from reply. Sorry, that means i am/was allready informing myself outside this forum, in general terms no panic ;-). Its not only about a list of endengared plants, but ok thanks for the research

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Kofu Bonsai Kai California Juniper Dig 2012