When is a Bonsai not a Bonsai?

Just adding to the thread, as it appears, we have hit the 100th reply

I found this regarding the spelling of the word whisky/whiskey.

http://www.whiskydistilled.com/whisky-basics/whisky-whiskey-spelling/

It appears both are correct, depending on the origin of the "sauce".

I am falling on the sword with this one.

http://www.giantbonsai.com/index.htm

Outstanding web page. My postage stamp yard wouldn't allow for it, but the trees are awesome.

Thanks,

Nice link Gary, but I always understood the training of garden trees in Japan to be called Niwaki. as in this book link

http://books.google.co.uk/books?id=dR9074_8QioC&dq=niwaki&printsec=frontcover&source=bn&hl=en&ei=V4RgSpW7EM3MjAfkiOm0Dg&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct=result&resnum=8

I wonder if anyone can clear up what the difference is for us?

forbey wrote: It appears both are correct, depending on the origin of the "sauce".

As one who has done a bit of journalism, i have to fall back on the tradition of never revealing my sauces!

Kev Bailey wrote:Nice link Gary, but I always understood the training of garden trees in Japan to be called Niwaki. as in this book link

http://books.google.co.uk/books?id=dR9074_8QioC&dq=niwaki&printsec=frontcover&source=bn&hl=en&ei=V4RgSpW7EM3MjAfkiOm0Dg&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct=result&resnum=8

I wonder if anyone can clear up what the difference is for us?

My guess is Niwaki is a term strictly for the process of training a tree by fukinaoshi that is growing in the ground.
Ueki no te ire is more of the big picture, the care of shrubs, trees in the landscape.
My only problem with the use of the word Niwaki for me is that sometimes it could bounce into the topiary side of training and tree sculpture. So when I see 'a natural' (bonsai natura) tree in the woods or in a garden, I still call it a bonsai form. Everyone understands.
If I tell my friends I saw a tree with Niwaki potential, they will take my beer away.

__gary

Garykk wrote:Shinjuku gyoen ike bonsai goryotei
Imperial Park Japanese Garden Pond Bonsai

Well....I guess that just leveled the playing field

Comps to photo pass Japan.com

__gary

Sorry, but this is not a bonsai. Though you can make the argument it could be transplanted that does not make it anymore a bonsai than a tree growing on the side of a mountain that you or any other collector can perceive as being collectible. In my analysis of portability the idea of harvesting did not enter into the equation. A thing is not portable unless it can be picked up directly without going through a procedure like transplanting.

Contact photpassjapan.com Mr. wood, I am sure they will love to here they don't know what a bonsai is. I didn't label the picture dude.

__gary

Garykk wrote:Contact photpassjapan.com Mr. wood, I am sure they will love to here they don't know what a bonsai is. I didn't label the picture dude.

__gary

I'm sorry that you found it necessary to be rude in your reply but that doesn't change anything. This tree is not a bonsai. I don't care if the Emperor called it a bonsai---it is not a bonsai-----dude. The tree is planted in a Japanese garden, it is trained bonsai style but it is not a bonsai. If you call this a bonsai I can show you some trees planted in the Japanese Tea Gardens that are sixty-feet tall trained to look like bonsai but guess what? They are not bonsai. The Japanese can call this tree a cow if it pleases them but guess what----? It's not that either. The thing about photpassjapan; they are wrong, this is not a bonsai. The sad thing is that you don't know the difference and have found it necessary to be nasty about it.

Kev Bailey wrote: ... I always understood the training of garden trees in Japan to be called Niwaki.
I wonder if anyone can clear up what the difference is for us?

Vance, Gary also drew our attention in an earlier post re this tree in the pond to something called Ueki no Te Ire (obtained from a website called giantbonsai.com), which then prompted Kev's question quoted above. Are you able to shed any light on this, please?

In any event, I'm still secure in a definition of bonsai which includes tree(s) and recognised bonsai Container(s), irrespective of size.

fionnghal wrote:

Kev Bailey wrote: ... I always understood the training of garden trees in Japan to be called Niwaki.
I wonder if anyone can clear up what the difference is for us?

Vance, Gary also drew our attention in an earlier post re this tree in the pond to something called Ueki no Te Ire (obtained from a website called giantbonsai.com), which then prompted Kev's question quoted above. Are you able to shed any light on this, please?

In any event, I'm still secure in a definition of bonsai which includes tree(s) and recognised bonsai Container(s), irrespective of size.

And I am still secure in my understanding that a bonsai must be portable or give the impression of being portable. I would like to hear what one of the Japanese Masters like Kimura would have to say on this. Would he consider this tree a bonsai; if so why,-- if not why not? Quoting web sites, blogs and Ebay is not really a good and credible source for reliable information. When all of the bonsai books every written by all the masters and master-wanna-be's for the last sixty years hold one thing in agreement; A bonsai is a tree in a container. We can argue around and around this point---and have done so for many pages, but still we find the bonsai in a container. Unless you want to define the entire planet as a container.

Boys and Girls:

This has been a fun debate/discusion/thread, please let us keep it as such. No need to allow the comments to become excessively negative or mean spirited.

forbey

Vance Wood wrote: And I am still secure in my understanding that a bonsai must be portable or give the impression of being portable. I would like to hear what one of the Japanese Masters like Kimura would have to say on this. Would he consider this tree a bonsai; if so why,-- if not why not? Quoting web sites, blogs and Ebay is not really a good and credible source for reliable information. When all of the bonsai books every written by all the masters and master-wanna-be's for the last sixty years hold one thing in agreement; A bonsai is a tree in a container. We can argue around and around this point---and have done so for many pages, but still we find the bonsai in a container. Unless you want to define the entire planet as a container.

Vance, I'd be really disappointed if the the touch of irateness I detected in your response was either intended or aimed at me as I believe we have been pretty much in agreement over this issue. All I was really trying to do was ask the question if your knew what the differences between what I understand to be Niwaki (a term which to me sums up a lot of the trees proffered on this thread) and something I had never heard of called Ueki no Te Ire. Please accept my apology if you felt I was getting at you - the absolute opposite was intended as I asked because I felt you had expert knowledge or at the very least a far superior knowledge and understanding to my own.

However. If we want now to have a discussion about the merits (or otherwise) of Niwaki, perhaps it's time to start a new thread. As the original poster on this thread, my own curiosity has been satisfied and I really do feel we need to put this one to bed now. Obviously people's opinions will vary and that can enhance debate. But we're really just going over the same old ground now and joking apart about thread records, this one now needs to be retired. Let's call it a day, draw a line under it, call it quits or any other stock phrase/cliche we can think of.

Many thanks for all your contributions; for the most part I've enjoyed the debate and have gained one or two valuable insights on the topic.

Over and out

Fiona

LOCKED! And we threw away the Key!

But not before it surpassed "Some pots for the new gallery"...