monster hawthorn

discussed on a previous thread - someone asked me to post a picture. Can't remember the name of the thread but it was something about the north of england. this is the beast (about 30 years old) I howked out of my neighbour's garden for them. There's about another two feet beneath the soil. It's sulking badly at the minute but I keep giving i a blasty of seaweed extract because someone told me to avoid feeding it at root level because I might scorch them. It was moved about three months ago and I was planning to start clarting about with it in the autumn, or do people think I should leave it longer? Incidentally, it's about four feet high.

and another:

Monster? It looks pretty young to me, maybe it´s a misconception of scale? Put a bottle of your favourite whisky next to it

No no send the botle to me and it will become a monster

Serious now, I believe that it is a young tree, google for hawthorn bonsai and visit my friend Tony Tickles webpage http://www.yamadori.co.uk/ there you wil find some monster examples.


Kind regards
Peter

the tree was planted by my neighbours when they moved into the house 30 years ago. It was cut back quite dramatically before I dug it out (much to my annoyance - how dare they interfere with my evil schemes)and like I said, there's another couple of feet below the surface. would people consider the amount of foliage on it reasonable in the circumstances - ie howked out of the ground three months ago?

Hi,

Love your "pooch" ! Is his name littlebobby ? Just a quick question about your collected tree ... what did you mean that "there's another couple feet under the surface"?

Norma

the dog is called nelly - she is a three legged (front right missing) boxer / great dane cross who I got from a rescue centre 18 months ago. very nervous and timid despite her size at first, but has matured into a wonderful dog - lots of patience and firm boundaries required though.

RE: the hawthorn - because it's tall and I had to use a hatchet to cut the very thick tap roots out in order to get it up, I thought it wise to plant it into a deep hole for stability. I plan to dig a trench around it and fill it with sand - a boffin of my acquaintance said that it would encourage lots of fibrous root growth for when I lift it and pot it.

Little bobby is a reference to an old comedian from the north east of england called bobby thompson. genius but very regionally specific. You can find him on youtube but I suspect you'd find it very hard to understand a word he says - most people in the uk can't get our accent.

That tree is planted way too deep, which may explain the poor foliage. Transplanted trees should be planted at approximately the same depth that they were growing prior to being dug. Staking the tree to improve stability would have been better.

Dave

oh b*gger. should I dig it up and replant it?

Exactly what I was thinking also , Dave. I did a web search to find out how long this tree could remain buried before damage to the trunk but found nothing. All I know is the warning garden specialists give about homeowners who build up walls around their trees for flower beds. All of the tree transplanting sources did stress that the tree should be planted at the same depth as the previous location. Some even suggested root flair should be a bit higher than ground level to accommodate settling. If you wanted new root formation from the trunk an airlayer procedure would be advisable.

How tough are hawthorns? I think I would replant and stake the tree for stability.

Good luck.. !!

Norma

cheers folks. I'll sort it out at the weekend.

Just in case Nelly can't manage (tho' she does look like the intrepid sort), I'll send my feller, Buddy, round to help with the excavation. He's got a black belt in Xtreme Diggin'.

I'm diggin your dawg. watching young Nel did is comedy experience beyond my capacity to describe.

littlebobby wrote:cheers folks. I'll sort it out at the weekend.

I'd seriously think about not replanting it in the ground. Yes, the ground is the safest / best place for it - but you are creating more work for yourself some years down the line when you need to dig it up again.

In your position I'd replant it in a large growing box (think a couple of feet across) filled with a very good growing medium (coarse, granular). Tie the tree in to the box securely to prevent trunk movement.

Don't do any pruning, fiddling, poking or whatever for a couple of years - benign neglect while the roots establish is the order of the day.

Good luck...

cheers. That sounds like a plan.

actually - one last question. I will knock a training box together at the weekend. This is far too big to wire in. How to I secure it?

I use a U shaped fencing staple in the top at each of the 4 corners of the box. Then using fairly thick wire, with some padding (aquarium air line or similar) to prevent the bark from scarring, I wire from a staple up and over a branch junction to the diagonally opposite corner staple. Pull itght and secure. Repeat using the other 2 staples. I can lift my trees wired in thus by the trunk and the box is securely attached to the roots, and I have many huge trees in development grown like this.

I've been advised not to do anything with it after I lift it and pop it into a training pot. Going to know the box up tomorrow from an old set of shelves. However, Since I don't plan to have it as a four foot tall bonsai, I'm planning on cutting the tall trunks down by about two thirds when I lift it. Is this ok or would folks advise I leave it alone altogether?

On the advice above, I knocked together a training box last weekend and potted the fella up. I had to cut some of the growth off because it would not be possible to keep it stable otherwise. I also had to chop back some of the big roots for the same purposes.







as you can see, very poor fibrous root development. Kill or cure methinks. In it's new home. The barbeque skewers are a cunning device to prevent the wife's cats from using it as a litter tray The potting mix is as recommended by Corin Tomlinson from Greenwood Bonsai in Nottingham - one part John Innes, two parts peat, two parts grit. Also threw in some vermiculite for nutrition purposes and a little acadama because I ran out of grit.

You must be kidding. This is the WORST time to dig this tree up. It has almost no chance to survive. What did you think? The only time you should do this is at the beginnging of April. What sort of advide is this when the blind man is helping the lame one? The internet is full of bizzarre folks

A little harsh I think mynheer. I'm learning as I go, and don't know much about these things. Alas I did not leap from my mother's womb the complete bonsai artiste. I had assumed that the advice to put it into a training pot was the way to go forward, since I was also told I would do the tree harm in the circumstances it was in before. Thanks for your kind words.

Under normal circumstances of course you are right, Walter. But to be fair to the chap (and to those who gave him advice on here) these were not "normal circumstances" and he was not actualy "digging it up" in the sense of "Collecting" it. What he had done was make an earlier mistake of burying a large section of trunk underground at the point (funnilly enough round about April) when he DID dig it up as we would understand it. The advice given was on the basis that the tree would most surely die if most of its trunk was submerged. Everyone, inlcuding the poster, knew it was a gamble to do what he has now done, but as the tree didn't cost him, he was happy to take the risk. I hope it has a happy ending.

Oh, the thing I forgot, Littlebobby. Apart from commending you for your boundless enthusiasm and courtesy on the forum, can I just ask something that's been bothering me: the thread is called "Monster Hawthorn" yet I'm not seeing the tree as a Hawthorn. Is there any chance of you posting a close up pic or two of the leaves? Either it's not a Hawthorn or I'm needing to go to Specsavers. And I'm most certainly not discounting that latter as the more likely. Humour me though please.
regards

Fiona

BTW if that brill box is what you can make out of a set of shelves, any chance you could come to my gaff and make me some shelves out of an old box. Him Indoors is useless at that sort of thing.

fionnghal wrote:Oh, the thing I forgot, Littlebobby. Apart from commending you for your boundless enthusiasm and courtesy on the forum, can I just ask something that's been bothering me: the thread is called "Monster Hawthorn" yet I'm not seeing the tree as a Hawthorn. Is there any chance of you posting a close up pic or two of the leaves? Either it's not a Hawthorn or I'm needing to go to Specsavers. And I'm most certainly not discounting that latter as the more likely. Humour me though please.
regards

Fiona

BTW if that brill box is what you can make out of a set of shelves, any chance you could come to my gaff and make me some shelves out of an old box. Him Indoors is useless at that sort of thing.

thank you for your kind words on both posts. Especially the compliment on my box. This is the first time I've ever engaged in even elementary carpentry, and I was very pleased with my efforts., as I was always informed that I was utterly yackless at practical skills Incidentally, I covered the drainage slots with plasterboard repair mesh tape which was recommended again by the mighty Corin - very efficient.

I was reliably informed by the person from whose garden I retrieved it from that it's actually a blackthorne not a hawthorn. I thought the leaves looked a bit odd for a hawthorn.

I must apologise for my response to Walter. I've invested a lot of time and effort doing things for this project, and it's my first effort at creating something from scratch, so I was a little deflated when I read your (his) post. This is not an excuse for getting irritable and being rude however, so I apologise without reservation.

littlebobby wrote: I was reliably informed by the person from whose garden I retrieved it from that it's actually a blackthorne not a hawthorn. I thought the leaves looked a bit odd for a hawthorn.

Thank Gawd for that! I thought I was one of the "blind" that Walter was referring to for a minute. On that topic - altho' I've only met him just once (and very briefly) I have Walter down as one of the bonsai greats and I'm sure he's had plenty folk having a much more severe pop at him over the years and wont be away running on his sword. As I said a couple of posts ago, the advice he was giving was correct in the normal run of things. Yours just weren't normal circmstances.

Re your monster Blackthorn: Maybe I'm biased because I'm a member of the British Shohin Association, but my gut feeling is that if it survives, you have potential for a decent tree there, but as one of the saller sizes such as Shohin or Chuhin. Anyway, have you considered going to a workshop in the future with it? Why not have a look at Tony Tickle's Yamadori website and see if you fancy coming along to the Burrs event. It is good fun, good company, loads of assistance and I suspect it would suit your sense of humour. Need to book soon. And no, I'm not on commission for him.

BTW if you can find it on here, have a look at what the Dragon boys (Uro and Chris) did with a blackthorn in the Avalon Dream post from around March.