Walter Pall at the Carolina Bonsai Expo

1.My point is very simple. People make all sorts of generalised comments due to their lack of knowledge and information. We don't have to look far to know that the bonsai universe is much larger than Japanese bonsai. Just have a look at some of the fantastic bonsai the Tawanese quietly created.

2.Jim, how much do u know about me and my bonsai collection ?

3.BTW, I neither hate nor am I against Walter. I appreciate what Walter is doing in pushing the boundaries of bonsai. I don't see any reason why I should be envious of Walter. Those who know me will understand. I only take offence at some of his generalised comments which I feel is not warranted had he known more about the bonsai universe out there.
Cheers, CJ.

newzealandteatree wrote:Walter: Quote Azaleas are almost always styled to look like an ideal pine trees with flowers. Unquote.

Does this azalea bonsai of mine looks like pine ?
There is a saying " Those who speak do not know and those who know do not speak. "
Cheers, CJ.

Interesting tree CJ. Seems like it was designed to show the flowers, have you ever had a full canopy of blooms, would look really good then I bet. What type of azalea is it?

I did note that Walter did say "almost always".

Rob Kempinski wrote:

newzealandteatree wrote:Walter: Quote Azaleas are almost always styled to look like an ideal pine trees with flowers. Unquote.

Does this azalea bonsai of mine looks like pine ?
There is a saying " Those who speak do not know and those who know do not speak. "
Cheers, CJ.

Interesting tree CJ. Seems like it was designed to show the flowers, have you ever had a full canopy of blooms, would look really good then I bet. What type of azalea is it?

I did note that Walter did say "almost always".

Hi Rob, I had over 300 flowers this year. The picture was taken towards the tail end of the bloom. I am still trying to find out what type of azalea it is. Sure point noted on "almost always".

Cheers, CJ.

fiona wrote:

will baddeley wrote: I fail to see a great deal of change in the above Scots demo, other than a thin out and bending down or spreading of branches.

I don't see how we can criticise him (or anyone else) for that, given that a recurring comment on the forum is how demos are contrived and damaging to tree health because they do too much at one sitting. Perhaps we have gone too far in the direction of "entertainment" in demos and less down the road of how to take a tree and start it on a long journey towards what the artist sees as its end result.

I think this is a good observation. I've spent some time browsing Walter's website, and from what I can tell, many of his trees don't really look "refined" or finished, whatever term you want to use, for many years. A lot of times, after the early styling, they look very rough. In reality, this is the way most of us work on trees - gradually over a period of years, not all in one 2 hour session. It's kind of like it is with painting - most paintings go through an "ugly" stage, an underpainting that looks very little like the eventual finished piece of artwork. Sometimes not, just as with trees - some trees are much closer to "finished" at the start than others.

As for the end result being naturalistic or whatever term...I don't see any problem with there being a range of interpretations of "bonsai". Some will prefer/gravitate toward the more traditional Japanese style, others will choose to push the envelope in a different direction. That's typical of the art world in general, and something that should be embraced.

Chris

One thing I've noticed with the "demo" tree we often see pictured at an expo; They may commit holy hell on the branches and trunk, but often the roots are left undisturbed and I think thats how you get away with so much work in one siting.

I have not done bonsai for very long (4 seasons now) but what I find catches my eye now are imperfections, cases where a tree was allowed a straight branch or a scar on purpose to better imitate nature. I saw a forest planting the other day that had two trunks crossing just slightly and I thought it looked excellent, because this better approximates what happens in nature and thus the Natural setting of the forest planting in question was much more pronounced.

I would be honored and proud to have Walters demo tree in my garden I think its excellent, I certainly wouldn't turn it down because its "too natural looking"

'Pallsai' I suppose is a term for what I create as well, and I suppose it does indeed require knowledge of where the line is between heavily styled "Bonsai" and the subtlety required to err on the side of Natural, and make it convincing.

And finally It seems "Bonsai soil" and "Walter Pall" seem to generate a similar zesty controversy on this forum,
If I were Walter I'd be honored.

Any group that has the good fortune to witness one of Walter Pall's "performances" should walk away at the end of the program with knowledge that gives them the ability to view bonsai in a light heretofor unavailable to them.
I haven't seen Walter on the West Coast USA for awhile I hope he returnes soon

Walter certainly doesn't need a defense attorney as he is quite capable of defending himself, his knowledge and his ideas but I will say that I've seen quite a few pines in my area that have naturally grown just like the one Walter styled. I definitely wouldn't say it's the majority of the pines that I've seen but certainly enough to make me go "Those are some weird looking pines", and these were pines that were never touched by anyone. I've often thought of styling a pine just like this, but I'm too much of a beginner and haven't found good enough material to play with. I've also thought that this "idea" probably wouldn't be accepted by most of the bonsai community (except for maybe the local crowd) and I'd be OK with that.

When I saw the material prior to Walter working on it, I thought "What the hell is he going to do with that?". Seeing the after pictures kind of reminds me of Budi Sulistyo and his work on the spruce and pine at Bonsai Autumn 7 with Walter moderating. I don't think Budi had ever worked on these species before and Walter commented on how well he recreated the natural feeling. I felt as if Walter had driven through Raleigh or Chapel Hill and was inspired by the same trees that I had seen. If you hadn't seen the trees I'm talking about, I would agree with anyone that says "That tree is styled weird", because it is indeed "unconventional". A word now synonymous with "Walter Pall"

I can't make up my mind whether the controversy that Walter's work stirs is good or bad. I guess in the end it really doesn't matter.

CJ, in my opinion that azalea is awesome. If it were my tree it'd look a little different but man, what a nice tree. I'd be proud to show that baby off. I would think Russell Coker can help in identifying that azalea.

Have a great weekend everyone!!!
Sam

... If the pine in question was styled by Pavel, I would personally expect it to be "Pavel's style" which is equally good. And since it was styled by Walter Pall, I expected to look like that- Walter Pall's style. and IMHO it reflects the character of the trunk. What would you do if it was styled by you (yes, you hehe).
If somebody got some better idea on how that tree would go, perhaps he can provide a sketch or virtual. then we can Judge and suggests which one is better.

..otherwise, go to a magic show and see some "miracle" performance.

You guys are so lucky to see lots of variations in techniques coming from different experts in your region...be appreciative and know your blessings.

regards,
jun

Whatever the style is called, I admire the works of Walter. He masters the knowledge and the technique to make his bonsai look "natural", instead of being ignorant (or unskilled) to let trees in pot grow unrefined like trees we see in nature as what they are and call it naturalist.
This is the true essense of bonsai philosophy "源以自然，高以自然“ (Yuan yi zi ran, Gao yi zi ran)...

Congratulation, Walter....

Thankyou for your replies Walter. I have never seen a Pine in a meadow or park with a girth and height like that. All the pines I see in Parks are tall and slimmer in ratio. Working with a lot of deciduous material myself, I do admire your bonsai and the long term goals of such trees but do not consider myself anti Walter WHATSOEVER, as some have assumed.
I post positively on posts I really like and question those I don't particularly get or find contentious.
I apologise for not sitting on the fence.

Here is some additional information about the Scots Pine used by Walter Pall for his demonstration at the 2011 Carolina Bonsai Expo.

Longtime bonsai expert Howard Kazan gave the tree to the Arboretum in 2009. Howard felt this pine had potential and I did, too. It is not so often you find an old pine with such a compact habit, so many branches and such a substantial trunk, unless it’s collected from the wild someplace where environmental conditions prevent trees from getting very tall. Such was not the case with this tree, although I suspect this specimen spent some time growing in the ground, perhaps at a nursery.

The tree was pot-bound when we received it, so I re-potted it and moved it out of the standard nursery can and into the deep tray it’s currently in. I also pruned back the branches because they were getting leggy, and took out a few of them entirely here and there where I thought they were poorly placed for future use. I fertilized the tree heavily to promote strong growth.

I thought very highly of this Scots Pine as material ripe for bonsai design. The one unfortunate flaw I saw in it was the lack of any surface roots at the base of the trunk, but although I wish they were there, I never thought the tree was no good because they weren’t. I would have liked to design this tree myself, but I gave it to Walter out of respect for his talent, and because he was our honored guest.

As Walter has written, this specimen was not very good for typical bonsai design. He said if someone had tried to impose a standard kind of bonsai pine treatment on this tree it would have taken ten years for it to look good, but I disagree with him about that. I think if someone had handled the plant that way it would have ruined it.

Someone wrote earlier on this thread about the problem of visiting artists being given inferior material with which to work for a demonstration. Although that is unfortunately often the case it does not apply to this tree and this demonstration. This Scots Pine was very good material and I knew it would be excellent for a demonstration on Naturalistic Style bonsai. I felt confident Walter would do the right thing with it, and not treat it like a square peg to be beaten into a round hole.

The results validate that confidence. I love the way this tree is designed. I am excited at the prospect of working with it in the years ahead, bringing this Scots Pine to fruition as an outstanding example of the Naturalistic Style, and I’m proud to have it in our collection.

There was another comment in this thread noting that there was no dramatic change in plant during the demonstration, and I suppose that is correct. There was no need for a dramatic change. Just the right amount was done to achieve the desired result, and it took more than 2 hours of steady work to do it, even with some help on the wiring. Often the dramatic parts of demonstrations are there to make a show for the audience, and the trees are the worse for it.

The same commenter questioned the authenticity of the styling, suggesting the look was more like one would expect from an old deciduous tree. In answer I would present these two specimens:





The first is Scots Pine growing in Scotland (of all places!) If you were to look at it in silhouette I think it could very easily pass for a deciduous tree. The second picture shows an Italian Stone Pine growing in California. The shape of this tree's crown reminds me very much of the crown of the Scots Pine Walter styled. The idea that there is a sort of standard look to all pines is not borne out by observation. The shapes of pines, as with all trees, are determined by a variety of factors, including species, individual inclination, and environmental conditions. Pines come in lots of different shapes, with different personalities. I think the way Walter styled this Scots Pine is entirely credible.

See my report of this event with about 200 images here:

http://walter-pall-travelogues.blogspot.com/

AJ wrote:Here is some additional information about the Scots Pine used by Walter Pall for his demonstration at the 2011 Carolina Bonsai Expo.

Longtime bonsai expert Howard Kazan gave the tree to the Arboretum in 2009. Howard felt this pine had potential and I did, too. It is not so often you find an old pine with such a compact habit, so many branches and such a substantial trunk, unless it’s collected from the wild someplace where environmental conditions prevent trees from getting very tall. Such was not the case with this tree, although I suspect this specimen spent some time growing in the ground, perhaps at a nursery.

.... snip....


The first is Scots Pine growing in Scotland (of all places!) If you were to look at it in silhouette I think it could very easily pass for a deciduous tree. The second picture shows an Italian Stone Pine growing in California. The shape of this tree's crown reminds me very much of the crown of the Scots Pine Walter styled. The idea that there is a sort of standard look to all pines is not borne out by observation. The shapes of pines, as with all trees, are determined by a variety of factors, including species, individual inclination, and environmental conditions. Pines come in lots of different shapes, with different personalities. I think the way Walter styled this Scots Pine is entirely credible.

Great explanation AJ. Looking forward to the tree's development.

Nice examples of natural trees too.

[quote="AJ"


The same commenter questioned the authenticity of the styling, suggesting the look was more like one would expect from an old deciduous tree. In answer I would present these two specimens:





The first is Scots Pine growing in Scotland (of all places!) If you were to look at it in silhouette I think it could very easily pass for a deciduous tree. The second picture shows an Italian Stone Pine growing in California. The shape of this tree's crown reminds me very much of the crown of the Scots Pine Walter styled. The idea that there is a sort of standard look to all pines is not borne out by observation. The shapes of pines, as with all trees, are determined by a variety of factors, including species, individual inclination, and environmental conditions. Pines come in lots of different shapes, with different personalities. I think the way Walter styled this Scots Pine is entirely credible.
[/quote]


We'll have to agree to disagree on that one AJ. I see no resemblance to either tree whatsoever. I have seen many examples of Scots Pine in the Caledonan forest. Most being similar in shape to your first picture. Although similar to a deciduous image, it still looks very much like a pine (ascending branches and bags of movement).

Rob Kempinski wrote:Great explanation AJ. Looking forward to the tree's development.

Nice examples of natural trees too.

Rob, thanks for your comments.

will baddeley wrote:We'll have to agree to disagree on that one AJ.

Yes, Will - it is just so. Thanks for reading.

AJ,

Thanks for providing the additional insight into the process by which the demo tree was selected. Very interesting. I was wondering - for an event like this, do you confer with the demonstrator (Walter in this case) before-hand, perhaps send photos of possible trees? Or maybe provide a couple of possible trees for him to choose from once he arrives? I suppose that would complicate things and create more work for the organizers, though...

Chris

Chris,

I certainly was clearly aware about what sort of material I would get many weeks before the event. I would never go to such an event without knowing exactly what to work with. I have agreed to this tree because I could see from the photographs that it would be challenging and just perfect for this event which had the subtitle 'naturalistic bonsai style'.

Extra work for the organizer? If he does not do it I certainly would not come. Or I would always have a second tree which someone brings. To choose the right material for a major demonstration is clearly one of the most important tasks an organizer has to do. To have a choice between a few is a good idea too.

Walter, thanks for clarifying that. I can understand it from your (or any demonstrators) point of view. The reason I asked was because I've been to some events where the material appeared somewhat "questionable", and I've also heard demonstrators comment about that very problem.

Chris

I was lucky enough to get in the Pine workshop with Walter Pall. For years I have read about him, admired his work, and even had the occasional opportunity of an "electronic" critique of several of my bonsai from him (remember "Ask The Master"). All during that time, I recall some who took a dim view towards Mr. Pall because he was considered somewhat gruff and insulting with his remarks, and about his use of the term "naturalistic". Needless to say, I expected this year's Expo to be entertaining, if nothing else.

Well, as happens so often in life, to actually meet a person before you make up your mind about them is prudent. I personally found his demeanor to be very refreshing. There was absolutely no doubt where he stood on particular subjects even though he readily accepted other opinions. I was not immune from criticism, and I think that is of illustrative worth here. During the workshop I was fortunate in drawing first for selection of the material. All of the pines had there positives, but I passed over two with more character for the selection of the most vigorous one. I felt that was an important aspect for a pine from Colorado that will have to survive in the piedmont of NC. Once the material was selected, each participant was asked what their design plans were. This was an important part of the workshop with mutual advice from other participants, and of course Walter, readily available. Upon styling, the issue of wiring was discussed to considerable length. In wiring my tree, I used aluminum wire of different finished colors, some up to 5mm. Walter had discussed "ugly" wiring, and my tree quickly became a visual reference for a version of what ugly wiring is. Without hesitation, he commented on that, and he was exactly right. He also took the time to delve in a bit further about my wiring, and if I would do it the same way had I been a pro doing a demo. I told him I would have done it neater (same color, etc.) if it would be viewed by others, but since this tree will rarely be in the presence of anyone outside of my own family for the next few years, the wire (which was what I had) need only position the branches until they set. That was my main objective and Mr. Pall accepted that. I was not in the least insulted by his remarks, and I truly believe some people must have to have their ego and self-worth constantly stroked to take issue with that kind of feedback. I actually felt like I was being complimented, as he expected us to be of at least intermediate level and to have the competence to attempt styling without the need to be hovered over every single second.

I also attended the demo and was equally impressed with the information that he provided at that. He is consistent!!! He mentioned quite a few points that he had shared with me - on a more personal level - from many years ago. One remark in particular was the use of a conifer to mimic the natural growing style of a deciduous tree. His consistency in these ideas over many years adds to his credibility and worth, in my opinion.
His critique of the club displays was very comprehensive and refreshing. He called a spade a spade when necessary, but isn't that part of a fair assessment? He was just as quick to praise efforts and that was very obvious.

I guess the best parameter for judging whether a guest artist was well liked and respected is to ask those in attendance if they would like to have them again. Well, my answer is absolutely!!!

My only complaint was that I didn't get to have cold one with him!

I'll finish with this; Winston Churchill is credited with the following quote; "I like a man who grins when he fights". I've always liked that philosophy and - to earn my respect - one has to enter the ring/arena/field where the participants battle it out. Anyone can sit back and analyze, far fewer hazard themselves. Mr. Pall has my respect.

jad628 wrote:I was lucky enough to get in the Pine workshop with Walter Pall. For years I have read about him, admired his work, and even had the occasional opportunity of an "electronic" critique of several of my bonsai from him (remember "Ask The Master"). All during that time, I recall some who took a dim view towards Mr. Pall because he was considered somewhat gruff and insulting with his remarks, and about his use of the term "naturalistic". Needless to say, I expected this year's Expo to be entertaining, if nothing else.

Well, as happens so often in life, to actually meet a person before you make up your mind about them is prudent. I personally found his demeanor to be very refreshing. There was absolutely no doubt where he stood on particular subjects even though he readily accepted other opinions. I was not immune from criticism, and I think that is of illustrative worth here. During the workshop I was fortunate in drawing first for selection of the material. All of the pines had there positives, but I passed over two with more character for the selection of the most vigorous one. I felt that was an important aspect for a pine from Colorado that will have to survive in the piedmont of NC. Once the material was selected, each participant was asked what their design plans were. This was an important part of the workshop with mutual advice from other participants, and of course Walter, readily available. Upon styling, the issue of wiring was discussed to considerable length. In wiring my tree, I used aluminum wire of different finished colors, some up to 5mm. Walter had discussed "ugly" wiring, and my tree quickly became a visual reference for a version of what ugly wiring is. Without hesitation, he commented on that, and he was exactly right. He also took the time to delve in a bit further about my wiring, and if I would do it the same way had I been a pro doing a demo. I told him I would have done it neater (same color, etc.) if it would be viewed by others, but since this tree will rarely be in the presence of anyone outside of my own family for the next few years, the wire (which was what I had) need only position the branches until they set. That was my main objective and Mr. Pall accepted that. I was not in the least insulted by his remarks, and I truly believe some people must have to have their ego and self-worth constantly stroked to take issue with that kind of feedback. I actually felt like I was being complimented, as he expected us to be of at least intermediate level and to have the competence to attempt styling without the need to be hovered over every single second.

I also attended the demo and was equally impressed with the information that he provided at that. He is consistent!!! He mentioned quite a few points that he had shared with me - on a more personal level - from many years ago. One remark in particular was the use of a conifer to mimic the natural growing style of a deciduous tree. His consistency in these ideas over many years adds to his credibility and worth, in my opinion.
His critique of the club displays was very comprehensive and refreshing. He called a spade a spade when necessary, but isn't that part of a fair assessment? He was just as quick to praise efforts and that was very obvious.

I guess the best parameter for judging whether a guest artist was well liked and respected is to ask those in attendance if they would like to have them again. Well, my answer is absolutely!!!

My only complaint was that I didn't get to have cold one with him!

I'll finish with this; Winston Churchill is credited with the following quote; "I like a man who grins when he fights". I've always liked that philosophy and - to earn my respect - one has to enter the ring/arena/field where the participants battle it out. Anyone can sit back and analyze, far fewer hazard themselves. Mr. Pall has my respect.

I completely agree with you, Jad. The essence of a man is consistency. Without consistency you can't have trust or faith in that man. Walter Pall knows what he knows but doesn't appear to be closed minded as evidenced by his willingness to listen to other folks and continual postings of his work where it is open for criticism. Walter has been in the arena, taken hits and has the bruises on the lines on his face to prove it. I know he's been in Asheville before and hope he can come again. It was an honor to have met him for a very brief moment on Friday afternoon and I don't even drink and I'd want to share a cold one with Walter Pall.

Walter, I just saw the video on European and Japanese bonsai. It's interesting what you said about tradition, (not verbatim) "In Japanese bonsai they follow tradition, so much so that the master doesn't know who did which tree". I had heard that before and hadn't really thought much about it until now. I've always been told that in every other medium of art though, most artists are known as rebels. Rebels against the rules and tradition. In my old country (Albania) artists were usually shushed during our long period of communism and most had to hide their artistic side for fear of being seen as being against the government. I'm speaking of my aunt here who was jailed for writing and is only now starting to get recognition as being an important writer of that day and age. I can see now how fundamentalists could take issue with your approach if they believe what is written in the quotations. Some of the choices you make may not be choices I would make, but that's what makes the world go 'round. Kudos to you for having the strength to persevere. Keep shaking the bonsai world. I heard in a movie "Artists use lies to tell the truth". Well, Walter Pall is one of the biggest liars I know . I go on his website often and many of his trees transform me in a different place and time. I may be at home in Raleigh NC, but I go on his website and I'm underneath a huge clump maple sharing a picnic with my wife. Or in the Alps looking at some ancient pines, larches, spruces and junipers, freezing my butt off!!!!!

To fundamentalists I ask, isn't it fundamental in art to allow others the freedom of expression? Like Dave Ramsey says, "If you don't like what I have to say, don't listen to me or follow me on Twitter".

Have a great weekend everyone!!!!
Sam

Just as a wrap-up to this thread, I want to share a song that I was whistling all through the Expo weekend. I had a CD with this song on it, and I tried to play it before Walter Pall took the stage on Saturday afternoon, but the antique boom-box CD player I had wouldn't work. Could this be the only song in history with the name "Walter" in the title?

https://youtu.be/cA5bcZeGqwE