how do you take pemphis cuttings

i guess this is a question for you guys from the philippines , i have done 1 or 2 and got them to root but then as soon as i take them out of the pot they die , is there a trick you use? what i don,t understand is reading about when you collect from the rocks you say you cut them out with little or no root and then store them for up to a month and they LIVE , but if cut off a branch and try to get it to root it dies, so whats the secret. regards john

Hi John.
Me first. Never ever pull a Phempis that is not well established yet. 99% will will die, 100% die backs will happen specially on matured branches.
When the Phempis are collected most roots are removed not because the gatherer wanted it to be removed, since the trees are mostly attached or sandwiched between rocks the only way to extract the tree is by removing the rocks and lots of roots goes with them.
When repotting Do not disturbed the roots as much as possible and take along the sand/medium attached to the roots as the roots are so fragile. I don't know about some folks here but I reduced the volume of the foliage when repotting and keep the tree in shaded area until new strong shoots puts out. Young shoots will also burned in too much sunlight.

regards,
jun

John,

As mentioned by Jun, handling pemphis is quite meticulous. I think that you are trying to transplant the cuttings way to early. As mentioned by me, Ka Pabling, Jun and several others, Pemphis requires a rather unique replanting method. I am sure that most of the roots were severed when you pulled them out of the pot. Remember, their roots are extremely brittle!! Even the thickest roots.

Kind regards,

Jose Luis

jrodriguez wrote:John,

As mentioned by Jun, handling pemphis is quite meticulous. I think that you are trying to transplant the cuttings way to early. As mentioned by me, Ka Pabling, Jun and several others, Pemphis requires a rather unique replanting method. I am sure that most of the roots were severed when you pulled them out of the pot. Remember, their roots are extremely brittle!! Even the thickest roots.

Kind regards,

Jose Luis

Yup. Up to now I still breaks some thick roots when repotting and sometimes it caused diebacks in major branches.

regards,
jun

ok guys , i understand, one more question, when you have an established tree and you need to repot into a smaller pot for design purposes can you do this . this large pemphis i have is in a 80 cm pot and already the pot is full of roots, but one day i,m going to want to put it in good quality slightly smaller pot . regards john. ps i really like talking to you guys because you have the same trees as we do ,BUT speak english

Hello again John!

If you are eying for a smaller pot, what you could probably do is to gradually reduce the pot size and little by little remove some portions of the roots until you got the desired root mass size you need for the smaller pot, Don't rush cutting the major roots in one repotting session. Phempis acidula needs a deeper pot than the usual ones you used in UK in terms of pot and tree ratio size proportion. In every repotting session also try to defoliate some of the leaves proportion to the small volume of the roots you removed.

regards,
jun

John,

First, never be on a rush to transplant your tree. If you do have to cut some roots, after care is the most important.

Jose Luis

i found this interesting page about pemphis

http://ofbonsai.org/species-specific/tropical/pemphis-acidula-%E2%80%93-pearls-in-the-tropics

it talks about seeds but i've looked at the pemphis growing close to my house and these are no berries on them at the moment

so i was wondering about taking some cuttings and found this thread. i wonder what the bottom line is? if i take some cuttings from some old well established trees on the rocks by the sea, do you think they will grow? its rainy season over here at the moment if that makes a difference.

thx steve

steve-thailand wrote:i found this interesting page about pemphis

http://ofbonsai.org/species-specific/tropical/pemphis-acidula-%E2%80%93-pearls-in-the-tropics

it talks about seeds but i've looked at the pemphis growing close to my house and these are no berries on them at the moment

so i was wondering about taking some cuttings and found this thread. i wonder what the bottom line is? if i take some cuttings from some old well established trees on the rocks by the sea, do you think they will grow? its rainy season over here at the moment if that makes a difference.

thx steve

if them are close to your house, try air layering  .

hi steve, yes rain season is the best time , pongsatorn is right air layers would be better, i listened to the advice that the guys gave me and now all my cuttings take, jose was right i was trying to move them too soon . 2/3 months seems about right . i have air layered branches up to 1 inch thick with no problems . what works for me is using a plastic cola bottle cut in half and fitted around the branch then tape it on to keep it in place . leave the screw top on to maintain humidity and to water it , use a mix of course beach sand and cocopeat, you will have roots after 2/3 weeks but do not sever the branch for 2/3 months . regards john ps nothing to stop you air layering the whole tree  

john5555leonard wrote:hi steve, yes rain season is the best time , pongsatorn is right air layers would be better, i listened to the advice that the guys gave me and now all my cuttings take, jose was right i was trying to move them too soon . 2/3 months seems about right . i have air layered branches up to 1 inch thick with no problems . what works for me is using a plastic cola bottle cut in half and fitted around the branch then tape it on to keep it in place . leave the screw top on to maintain humidity and to water it , use a mix of course beach sand and cocopeat, you will have roots after 2/3 weeks but do not sever the branch for 2/3 months . regards john  ps nothing to stop you air layering the whole tree  

thanks but air layering in the location i found is not really an option, its on a main tourist beach, but i'm sure i can get away with a few smaller cuttings since no one is going to be on the beach at the moment in the pouring rain and 80km/h wind

i noticed in another pemphis thread you recommend planting in 50% volcanic sand and 50% cow manure? do you still think that's a good idea? since we are a bit short of volcanoes here in phuket, and the beach sand is usually very fine, would you go with course sand instead or maybe pumice?

thx steve

hi steve, for cuttings i use 50% volcanic sand < imported > and 50% cocopeat, you can get volcanic sand or course coral sand from aquarium shops . when the cuttings are about 1 yr then i put them in 50% volcanic sand and cow manure, the ones i did last year are now 1 metre high . i think i would try the air layer and cover it with a piece of black plastic so people cannot see it . what have you got to lose ? ps hard wood cuttings work best

john5555leonard wrote:hi steve, for cuttings i use 50% volcanic sand < imported > and 50% cocopeat, you can get volcanic sand or course coral sand from aquarium shops . when the cuttings are about 1 yr then i put them in 50% volcanic sand and cow manure, the ones i did last year are now 1 metre high . i think i would try the air layer and cover it with a piece of black plastic so people cannot see it . what have you got to lose ?    ps hard wood cuttings work best

ok, i'll try it, i guess you are right, if i air layer with sphagnum moss and wrap in black electrical tape they should not be too obvious. also, good tip about the aquarium shop. so for hard wood cuttings i'm probably looking for something 1/2" and up?

is this pemphis?


i don't think it is now i look at some high res pics on the net. but it is growing on a rocky island in the sea. if not pemphis then what? i don't think its mangrove, that needs permanently wet roots and this is growing up on a rock, very dry from many months in the year. maybe still bonsaiable?

by the way John, any chance you could post a pic of the once you did last year?

steve that looks like premna and they are real easy you could take the " />t" />[" />img]<a href=[/img]" />runk with as much root as you can get and it will grow . any pieces off it potted will grow . as for pemphis cuttings i find 1/4 inch and below work best the first pic is an air layer about 1 1/4 inch thick off my big pemphis that i took only a few months ago and its planted in a concrete pipe for the roots to grow long then i will use it for a root over rock bonsai . the others are just cuttings and one is planted as root over rock and the bigger one is 15 months old and is planted in 50% volcanic sand and 50% cow manure and was put in that mix 3 -4 months ago . john

thanks john, it does look like premna, good to know i can find it and grow it easily, saves a few baht in the garden shops.

i wonder if i should spray it with sea water same as pemphis?

no, no sea water

steve-thailand wrote:thanks john, it does look like premna, good to know i can find it and grow it easily, saves a few baht in the garden shops.

i wonder if i should spray it with sea water same as pemphis?

Steve, you can not buy them in any garden shop, only bonsai dealler have.

to John, your Pemphis are look like great healthy in your place, Good Job!!!.


Regards,
Pongsatorn.K

pongsatorn.k wrote:

steve-thailand wrote:thanks john, it does look like premna, good to know i can find it and grow it easily, saves a few baht in the garden shops.

Steve, you can not buy them in any garden shop, only bonsai dealler have.

i mean i don't need to buy it since i can go get it from the beach for free. any idea what subspecies or premna? maybe premna microphylla like this http://www.bonsaihunk.us/info/ChiangPremna.html

i'm not sure, i think all the leaves were about 2" or less

this post is a bit confusing to me https://ibonsaiclub.forumotion.com/t2480-please-identify-this-premna?highlight=premna

but my tree looks like the second tree in that post

Thanks Guys,

Well I am pleased to say my Pemphis is also 1 metre tall and it is from seed via Budi.
Thanks for all the information on growing mediums. I am hoping to send a few cuttings down to the seashore next year.
That should speed up things in x years towards the bigger, and exotic shapes.

Premna is presently available in Barbados, if I remember correctly, so I will look at get one in the months to come.

Now I have a question, in your area does the Gmelina exist?
If so any visual examples?
Jun if you see this, any specimens on your side ?

Or is this a Southern Chinese shrub?
Thanks in advance.
Khaimraj