Re: Modern Masters - Bonsai in the 21st Century

my nellie Wed Sep 21, 2011 9:14 am

tim stubbs wrote: Yes but would they like to be known as "masters" ?

That's a very interesting query, indeed!
I am sure everyone would like to read an answer....

The Lad Wed Sep 21, 2011 2:24 pm

David Carvalho wrote:Hello Lad,

To be fairly honest I havent read the full topic, just the original post. From what I've read, in Japan a Deshi is considered a master when the master himself cannot distinguish if the work on the tree was done by him or by the Deshi. Still I've discovered recently that there is a fairly bigger Bonsai hierarchy in Japan, for example Taiga Urushibata (the son of the famous Master Urushibata from Taisho-En) is considered worldwide has a Master except in Japan where he is still considered a "Future Master".

This big Japanese hierarchy, brings a huge topic to discussion, since I've lost the quantity of self self-proclaimed Masters here in the Occident/West, seems like everyone is a Master nowadays

I trully believe that only people who have studied in Japan has Deshi's like Mario Komsta and Ryan Neil (and many others) can clarify this issue in a proper manner, since they are following the path to turn into Bonsai Masters (which I personally believe they allready are).

NOTE: I have read a couple of more reply's to this topic, I just wanted to leave here some information from what I've been reading in the Masakuni (the Japanese Family which were responsable for the first Bonsai tools) Books, Bonsai is around 1700 years old, it started in China but was then brought to Japan (by Monks from what I've read in a different book), still Japan were responsible for the main evolution of the Art and the search for perfection. When Bonsai reached Japan it was not what we actually call Bonsai, there were a few poor technics, there weren't any proper tools, it was mainly due Japanese that the evolution of the art occurred, they were the creators of the first tools and many technics that we use today.

Best regards,

That does not matter David as I am extremely happy that your taking time to discuss this Topic Of Modern Day Bonsai Master what you say above it very very intriguing about Taiga Urushibata status in and out of Japan thanks for that

Nice to say what you TRULY believe and I have chatted with many members in the Bonsai Community and these 2 Gentleman's names have been mention more than a few times as some of the GREATS as Modern Day Master so you NOT alone in your thoughts about Mr Mario Komsta and Mr Ryan Neil ( that's 4 name's so far that have been mention with Mr Mario Koimsta being mentioned 2 times)

You wrote that The Masakuni (the Japanese Family which were responsable for the first Bonsai tools) Books, Bonsai is around 1700 years old, it started in China but was then brought to Japan (by Monks from what I've read in a different book)

Have you ever gave thought David to wonder what ever happened to those First Tools and Books or even BONSAI TREES it would be AMAZING AND WONDERFUL if some were still around in this day and age !!!! But I doubt It but you never know or do we !!!!!

Many many thanks David for your comments and i hope others can get involved as well and hopefully we can have a few more name s and Suggestions to our List Of Modern Day Bonsai Masters in the 21st Century

Take care and look after each other and all your Bonsai Trees

Jim thelad

The Lad Wed Sep 21, 2011 4:15 pm

[quote="morten albek"][quote="The Lad"][quote="morten albek"]I agree Marcus.

Hi Mr Morten Many thanks for getting involved in this discussion it was good to hear from you

]b]Dear Jim

First the master subject. Just to point it out taking my self as subject. Someone calls me a master - believe it or not?!
But I am not when I judge me. Far from. And when the word is used or misused too often, it looses its value.[/b][/color]

This is why I feel I would like to know as I often hear that someone has gone to Japan and Studied under MR SoSo or what ever the name is, for 5 years or so and they seem to give the impression that they are very well educated in the Art and Culture of Bonsai

So why do they do that, and why do I feel it´s awkward. Because a master has to deserve it through a lifetime achievement, and no matter how kind it is mend when put forward it is a misunderstanding, even in a western approach. Using it only when appropriate it stands out as something special as I think it should do.[/b]

I Agree and you should be Respected and Addressed as such unless THE MASTER gives His/ Her permission to call him or her by any other name But I know and feel many Titled personal are too Humble to call themselves by the Honour that has been Bestowed upon them by others

A master is someone who have influenced the art in a groundbreaking manner and/or have shown high quality in her/his work for many years.
This is the way it is done in the stiff Japanese hierarchy. But we do not need to follow it and can do our own western way. Still I think a far better label is to say someone very good and skilled are named a "specialist".

For Me, Morten I do like the way you explain this and I Humbly agree with you, maybe using the Word SPECIALIST would be more appropriate in many many cases

b]This will be far more precise and covering in the meaning of the word, saving the master-labels for true masters for a later time when someone reaches this level.

[/b]
Then the old question is raised "WHEN WILL HE BECOME A BONSAI MASTER" in your opinion !!!!

I would hate to think that a person will be Honored as a Master once he /she has departed from this life

]u]The judging subject.[/u
It is always the organizers who asks for judges, and I believe they ask someone who they trust are capable to do a good job judging. Many experienced people are. It is the organizers who decide, and like one have to accept how they set up an exhibition, one also have to accept who they ask to teach and who they ask to judge.

This I know BUT can the Judge be SWAYED by FRIENDSHIP with some of the EXHIBITORS I would like to think NO but we all cannot be 100% sure can we !!!! as Judges MUST BE BEYOND REPROACH

[b]I have always pleaded that the guest demonstrator also picks the awards, because it is a matter of personal preferences, and therefore easier to accept when one knows it is the approach of a specialist that makes her/his choice. And the choice seems easier to accept when a guest teacher/demonstrator makes decides the awards. We will anyway newer agree all together.[/b]

YES this i agree and also like you say we will never agree altogether So an IMPARTIAL Judge or Judges is a MUST in my opinion

Now comes the BURNING QUESTION !!!! INCLUDING YOURSELF Who would you recommend or suggest and some of the top 10 or top 5 Bonsai Specialist then may deserve the distinctive Honor of Being A MODERN DAY BONSAI MASTER OF THE 21st CENTURY

Take care and a thousand thank-you's for explaining some valuable insight to Bonsai Culture and Bonsai Master and Judges

Take care and look after each other and all your Bonsai Trees

NOTE
Without sounding too groveling or cheeky I have checked out your Blogs and Profile and I am stunned by ALL your achievements as up until I joined the IBC and started using the IBC forums I had never heard of you and forgive for being honest

Jim thelad

Rob Kempinski Thu Sep 22, 2011 11:07 pm

David Carvalho wrote:
NOTE: I have read a couple of more reply's to this topic, I just wanted to leave here some information from what I've been reading in the Masakuni (the Japanese Family which were responsable for the first Bonsai tools) Books, Bonsai is around 1700 years old, it started in China but was then brought to Japan (by Monks from what I've read in a different book), still Japan were responsible for the main evolution of the Art and the search for perfection. When Bonsai reached Japan it was not what we actually call Bonsai, there were a few poor technics, there weren't any proper tools, it was mainly due Japanese that the evolution of the art occurred, they were the creators of the first tools and many technics that we use today.

Best regards,

I was just reading Y. C. Shen's book "The Chinese Art of Bonsai and Potted Landscapes" and he is the one that says there are archeological potsherds from 7,000 years ago showing potted trees- the start of penzai. He even shows photos of the potsherds - one is in what appears to be a drum pot with rivets! Bonsai may be older than we think.

Guest Fri Sep 23, 2011 5:55 am

Dear Jim

Thank you so much.

Best regards
Morten

The Lad Fri Sep 23, 2011 12:16 pm

Hi There Rob you Wrote

I was just reading Y. C. Shen's book "The Chinese Art of Bonsai and Potted Landscapes" and he is the one that says there are archeological potsherds from 7,000 years ago showing potted trees- the start of penzai. He even shows photos of the potsherds - one is in what appears to be a drum pot with rivets! Bonsai may be older than we think.
[/quote]

I have just been Googling for Y. C. Shen's book "The Chinese Art of Bonsai and Potted Landscapes" and it sounds very intriguing Thanks for mentioning it, so as a Newbie how far should i look back for information about Bonsai Masters !!!! then try to find out Modern Day 21st Bonsai Master. I understand to discover how Bonsai all that started I should try and go far back as possible

During a Search I can across this list of Bonsai Master

[

b][Alan Walker, Louisiana USA === Craig Coussins, Scotland ===GiacomoPappalardo, Italy

Guy Guidry, Louisiana USA === Harry Harrington, United Kingdom Jerry Meislik, Montana USA

Jyoti & Nikunj Parekh === Masahiko Kimura, Japan === Jyoti & Nikunj Parekh

Stefano Frisoni, Italy

[/b]

Also Some Organizations

Art of Bonsai Project, USA === Association of British Bonsai Artists, Southampton UK

Austin Bonsai Society, Texas USA === Avadh Bonsai Association

Bonsai Society of Madhya Pradesh === Indian Bonsai Association, India

Jyoti & Nikunj Parekh Group of the Indo-Japanese Association and the co-chairs of All-India Bonsai Convention and Exhibition 2007.

San Antonio Bonsai Society, Texas USA

[b]This information can be seen here

http://www.devipeetham.com/Kali_Devi_Lakshmiji/Bonsai/bonsai-masters.html

I don't remember anyone mentioning INDIA as a Bonsai Country if they have I am deeply sorry ALSO how up to-date is this information anyone know please !!!!
I have heard and know of a few people and organization some I am surprised about especially the organization

Take care and look after each other and all your Bonsai Trees

Jim thelad

**fiona** Fri Sep 23, 2011 3:10 pm

Jim, I think the key question you must ask is not who are the people on the list but who/what is the site you have it taken from and are they presenting their information with any degree of expert status themselves?

The net is full of information that is very often one or more from unauthenticated, unresearched, derivative, opinion - informed or otherwise, dogma and so on right through to and including propaganda. When I teach my students research skills I spend a lot of time getting them to understand the need to validate sources. The quick glance I've had at that site makes me think it would need a much fuller investigation before I took anything it said re bonsai seriously. And that is not to be disrepectful to Indian bonsai - I say the same for a helluva lot of UK and USA based websites too.

Guest Fri Sep 23, 2011 4:10 pm

fiona wrote:Jim, I think the key question you must ask is not who are the people on the list but who/what is the site you have it taken from and are they presenting their information with any degree of expert status themselves?

The net is full of information that is very often one or more from unauthenticated, unresearched, derivative, opinion - informed or otherwise, dogma and so on right through to and including propaganda. When I teach my students research skills I spend a lot of time getting them to understand the need to validate sources. The quick glance I've had at that site makes me think it would need a much fuller investigation before I took anything it said re bonsai seriously. And that is not to be disrepectful to Indian bonsai - I say the same for a helluva lot of UK and USA based websites too.

YUP!

Just visited the link. Trees and info posted are not that good...I mean not so interesting.

regards,
jun Smile

The Lad Fri Sep 23, 2011 5:06 pm

morten albek wrote:Dear Jim

Thank you so much.

Best regards
Morten

Hi Mr Morten ALbek

I am the one that should be THANKING YOU as you have opened my eyes and mind even more to what can be achieved with SMALL BONSAI TREES My Main Concern and why I choose to care and work with medium size and large Bonsai Trees was THE WATERING as I thought I would never be able to cope and they would dry out to quick but my whole attitude now has changed thanks To Les Storey who introduce me to the Bonsai World and looked after me and MR John Armitage as I have learnt and still learning each day more and more and NOT to be afraid of having and working with Small Bonsai Trees

A Massive Thankyou

Take care look after yourself and your Bonsai Trees

Jim thelad

**JimLewis** Fri Sep 23, 2011 7:09 pm

During a Search I can across this list of Bonsai Master

Fiona's right. On the web, you pays yer money and you takes yer chances. All too often you look for gold and get dross.
I know a few of the folks on that list and know OF a few others. The ones I know are all nice people and I assume the same for those I only know OF and those I've never heard of. And while some of those I know are good or very good bonsaists (I spelled it your way, Fiona, but it looks funny) I doubt they aspire to, or if others would raise them to, masterhood.

Russell Coker Fri Sep 23, 2011 7:44 pm

Can I hear an "AMEN"?

The Lad Fri Sep 23, 2011 8:06 pm

fiona wrote:Jim, I think the key question you must ask is not who are the people on the list but who/what is the site you have it taken from and are they presenting their information with any degree of expert status themselves?

The net is full of information that is very often one or more from unauthenticated, unresearched, derivative, opinion - informed or otherwise, dogma and so on right through to and including propaganda. When I teach my students research skills I spend a lot of time getting them to understand the need to validate sources. The quick glance I've had at that site makes me think it would need a much fuller investigation before I took anything it said re bonsai seriously. And that is not to be disrepectful to Indian bonsai - I say the same for a helluva lot of UK and USA based websites too.

Hi Fiona

Thanks for your input and I will again hold my cheers

's up and say I will agree with you about getting info on the Web there's a lot of Great info going about reference Bonsai Art and Culture and that was the only one I found out about WORLD BONSAI MASTERS and I am finding out by asking on here that there is some Absolutely Rubbish as well Whether your disrespectful to any organization or not to me If you feel your opinion is Honest and Not Bias your in-titled to it,and being someone who knows nothing about nothing especially about Bonsai so far in comparison with 99.9% of the IBC Members I welcome what you say

Take care look after yourself and your bonsai trees

Jim thelad

The Lad Fri Sep 23, 2011 8:44 pm

JimLewis wrote:
During a Search I can across this list of Bonsai Master

Fiona's right. On the web, you pays yer money and you takes yer chances. All too often you look for gold and get dross.
I know a few of the folks on that list and know OF a few others. The ones I know are all nice people and I assume the same for those I only know OF and those I've never heard of. And while some of those I know are good or very good bonsaists (I spelled it your way, Fiona, but it looks funny) I doubt they aspire to, or if others would raise them to, masterhood.

Hi Jim

Looks like I am trying to find the answer to a QUESTION No-ONE can answer or WON'T for various reasons

iT has been said before do we need "Titles" or or anything to regard someone as a GREAT ARTIST OF BONSAI and the ANSWER SEEMS TO BE NO

I will keep searching and asking questions on my travels and who knows some one some-where may have the answer of WHO ARE THE MODERN DAY BONSAI MASTERS OF THE 21st CENTURY

FOOD FOR THOUGHT

Does this mean there is NO BONSAI MASTER IN JAPAN, CHINA. Korea or anywhere else in the Eastern Countries

Another thing I would like to have found who was WHO ARE THE TOP 10 Bonsai Artist in the Western World But so far ONLY 4 NAMES HAVE BEEN MENTIONED which I sure you and many others could name a lot more. For me I have only met 4 in my extremely short time on the Bonsai Scene Mr Armitage == Mr Warren == Mr Temblett and Mr Tolley and I would like to echo the words from the very talented and inspirational Gentleman in my opinion Mr Morten Albek QUOTE I think a far better label is to say someone very good and skilled are named a "specialist". "

Take care and look after each other and all your Bonsai Trees

Jim thelad

Russell Coker Fri Sep 23, 2011 11:51 pm

Sweet Jesus, PLEASE tell me that means we're finished beating this dead horse here....

Guest Sat Sep 24, 2011 5:43 am

HI Jim.
This is not the 16th or 17th century, there are other worlds outside Europe and the west. As per number of people per region, asia got the most number of folks doing bonsai. If you are searching for inspiration of the so called "modern masters" which I bet is the least (the title) of their concern, I think you are looking at the wrong (limited) place.
And look no farther , some of the best in the worlds are already here in IBC. Comunicating with us.,just do not call them modern masters, their humbleness might get insulted.

Regards,
jun Smile

The Lad Sat Sep 24, 2011 11:09 am

Russell Coker wrote:Sweet Jesus, PLEASE tell me that means we're finished beating this dead horse here....

Hi Russell

In one word NO But I will take a Rain Check for now and I am sure someone else will come along and ask the Same Question like What IS a Bonsai Master? Post From Fiona on Sat Mar 21, 2009 9:57 am which i did not know about hence the one I started Modern Masters - Bonsai in the 21st Century on Wed Aug 10, 2011 12:52 pm

So for now I will continue to search and ask Questions about ALL Bonsai Related Items for if I don't I may become a MASTER of Knowing Nothing and Learning Nothing about Bonsai Art and Culture

But a thousand thanks for your input

Take Care look after yourself and your Bonsai Trees

Jim thelad[b]

**JimLewis** Sat Sep 24, 2011 11:49 am

Russell Coker wrote:Sweet Jesus, PLEASE tell me that means we're finished beating this dead horse here....

Here's your A-MEN, Russell.

The Lad Sat Sep 24, 2011 12:17 pm

jun wrote:HI Jim.
This is not the 16th or 17th century, there are other worlds outside Europe and the west. As per number of people per region, asia got the most number of folks doing bonsai. If you are searching for inspiration of the so called "modern masters" which I bet is the least (the title) of their concern, I think you are looking at the wrong (limited) place.
And look no farther , some of the best in the worlds are already here in IBC. Comunicating with us.,just do not call them modern masters, their humbleness might get insulted.

Regards,
jun

Thanks Jun

I agree there with you Jun and from what I have learnt these past few weeks since I started by asking questions on Bonsai Masters on here there is a helluva lot of Bonsai Specialist on the IBC and they are extremely modest and many thanks for correcting me in my interpretation of Bonsai Masters I appreciate it so if I have ever OFFENDED SENiIOR MEMBERS OR BONSAI SPECIALIST's bY mentioning then AS Modern Masters Bonsai in the 21st Century

I am deeply sorry

[center]

Thanks once again to everyone for there opinions

Take care and look after each other and all your Bonsai Trees

Jim thelad[b]

Khaimraj Seepersad Sat Oct 15, 2011 10:31 am

Jim the Lad,

the definition of a Master, is someone the majority seeks to emulate.

That said, there are presently just too many feel good [ about yourself ] philosophers/philosophies around.

So just watch the trees and see how many resemble someone elses, and follow the design back to the originator.
Later.
Khaimraj

newzealandteatree Tue Oct 18, 2011 6:42 am

Jim the Lad,
You have to judge for yourself. Open your eyes and ears and use your brain. Just like other areas of human activities, there are all sorts of character doing bonsai. Take self proclaimation with scepticism. Watch out for hidden commercial motivation like back scratching to suck u in.
Take care and all the best in your bonsai pursuit.
Cheers, CJ.

The Lad Thu Oct 27, 2011 1:02 pm

newzealandteatree wrote:Jim the Lad,
You have to judge for yourself. Open your eyes and ears and use your brain. Just like other areas of human activities, there are all sorts of character doing bonsai. Take self proclaimation with scepticism. Watch out for hidden commercial motivation like back scratching to suck u in.
Take care and all the best in your bonsai pursuit.
Cheers, CJ.

Hi NewZealandTeaTree

First of all a thousand Sorry's for not answering sooner

Thanks for you comments, I am learning each day to use all of my sense ( some would say i don't seem to have many left ) and like you say there's " there are all sorts of characters doing Bonsai." and I am starting NOT to take everything at face value of what i have seen without really thinking what was said

What I find interesting many of the Bonsai Fraternity can Name and Shame many or quite a few so-called Bonsai Experts when you chat with them in person but thats as far as it goes and for me NO MASTER WOULD EVER SAY HE WAS A TRUE MASTER THE ART OF BONSAI

thanks again and we found out holiday in New Zealand a while back very very enjoyable

take care look after each other and all your Bonsai Trees

Jim thelad

The Lad Thu Oct 27, 2011 1:14 pm

Khaimraj Seepersad wrote:Jim the Lad,

the definition of a Master, is someone the majority seeks to emulate.

That said, there are presently just too many feel good [ about yourself ] philosophers/philosophies around.

So just watch the trees and see how many resemble someone elses, and follow the design back to the originator.
Later.
Khaimraj

Hi Khaimraj

Extremely Sorry for the delay in getting back to your post

I really enjoy going out and about finding out about styles and techniques and many that i have seen I have also seem something FAMILIAR in BONSAI MAGAZINE or OLD MOVIE CLIPS

Is that a bad thing to do to get inspiration from someone Else's PAST Creation !!!!!!!!!!!!

take care and look after each other and all your Bonsai Trees

Jim thelad

Mitch - Cedarbog Fri Nov 18, 2011 3:58 am

JimLewis wrote:Master = anyone who KNOWS more than I do about a given subject, but not someone who THINKS he or she does.

This is a good answer. In any case though, I AM NOT A MASTER. I will always be a student. Right now i am working with, helping, teaching, learning from, and guiding a new artist that started in February this year. I have done this for 8 years. I have learned alot and the more people i run into, the more i know what i dont know. pale

drgonzo Fri Nov 18, 2011 4:24 am

Socrates was the wisest man in Athens because he alone knew, that he knew nothing.
-Jay

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