ANTI-TRANSPIRANTS EFFECT on Pinus Sylvestris

Thank you Will for responding. Makes good sense and one I shall be thinking about long after I move on from this thread. Very interesting indeed, food for thought so to speak.

Mike

Hi Will
My understanding is that once a tree has a fungus it has this for life. We can control it but never eradicate it. The only effective fungucides I have found are actually protectants which means they stop the fungus spreading. Such as chlorothalonil and copper fungicides. I have found Kocide Blue Extra (copper fungicide) pretty helpful. Bravo (chlorothalonil) is brilliant but more toxic. Both are recomended for needle cast on Pines.
I am no expert but I think a good plan is 30-1 lime sulfur in mid Winter and Kocide Blue Extra closer to spring. I am told frequent light doses are better than heavy infrequent applications. So maybe try applications of copper fungicide every couple of weeks through the fungus season if it is persistant.

I have found fungus to be a slippery little bugger and just as you think you have worked it out it throws a spanner in the works. A certian Fungus spore is the fastest acelerating thing on earth. Hitting about 60mph in one millionth of a second.
http://vimeo.com/2543823
Again mine is just a feeling but I don't think wetting the foliage increases the chance of infection.

Brett is right. At least in this country, there are no fungicides available to the non-licensed public that will eradicate a fungus, and as I understand it, very few that are available to licensed professionals.

Those named fungicides are useful -- but not perfect -- as a preventative -- one of the very few instances where a pesticide can be used as a preventative measure, but only then if you happen to have applied it within the unpredictable window that opens between application and arrival of the spores, as most of these fungicides have a somewhat limited persistence.

Of those, lime sulfur -- because most of us have it on hand -- is as good as any. The label on the bottle provides the necessary dilution as a fungicide.

Almost ALL of my watering is done via an overhead sprinkler system. I have only 2 pines and am unlikely to get more, but the only fungus I seem to get is a kind of black mold on the trunks (most species) -- and it seems to arrive in our humid climate no matter how one waters. A toothbrush and water gets rid of it as necessary as it seems to have no adverse effects on the trees other than cosmetic effects.

Hello Brett and thanks for your input. I do use Lime sulphur as a late Winter wash on most of my trees. Irradicating Black spot and gall mite on English Elm for that season in particular. My Pines have never looked better for stopping with overhead watering and I will continue to just water the pot.If a tree in a pot is getting sufficient water through the roots, I would be interested to know if their is any benefit to wetting foliage? Particularly Pines that are more droubt tolerant.

will baddeley wrote: ... ... The colour looks pale for a Sylvestris too. Are you feeding it?

Yes, I do feed the pine but now that you mentioned this Will, I am not sure that the regimen is efficient...
Well, I have been told to use seaweed fertilizer in Autumn and Winter. Then from Spring to Summer I should use the chemical fertilizer.
Do you have a suggestion otherwise?

As far as the fungal infections are concerned I have noticed that almost every search I made on the internet mentioned that humid weather is a beneficial factor for the developement and spread of these diseases. So....

Hello Alexandra. Varying fertilizers makes sure that trees are recieving a comprehensive list of the minerals or chemicals they need for good health. The two you mention are very good but you could try building up the frequency of your applications.
Wet and humid conditions in and around a tree must have an effect on fungal attacks. As Jim mentioned, he waters overhead and his trunks are covered in fungus. We have humid Summers in the UK but as I dont wet the foliage, branches and trunk, I get nothing other than a small amount of green algae on the north side of the tree.

Thank you greatly!

Well Will, I think what you say makes great sense. From this year I shall refrain from overhead and I have the solution. I spent most of this morning with my engineering head on and came up with the following protection.

See below for my invention and additional comments after.



I'm actually trying to dry this one out ready for mid April repot. I have slight troubles with it. around 30% of last years growth started off fine but said percentage has gone green on each shaft with yellow tops. Been like it 5-6 months and not got any worse. Was prior to Winter so I may have had either LJ's or worse VW's. I shall fine out soon. Lifted it last week to look but nothing visible.

It is due a major thin out late Summer with ever remaining branch wired for reshaping and then needle reduction over the next three years.

Top idea Mike. Made me laugh when I first saw it. Good way to find out if it is Leatherjackets is to cover the surface if the soil with a bin liner. Leave it overnight and when you remove in the morning, they will be on the surface. I haven't found they do much damage other than killing off moss though. Have you tried Provado for the Vine Weevil?

will baddeley wrote:Top idea Mike. Made me laugh when I first saw it. Good way to find out if it is Leatherjackets is to cover the surface if the soil with a bin liner. Leave it overnight and when you remove in the morning, they will be on the surface. I haven't found they do much damage other than killing off moss though. Have you tried Provado for the Vine Weevil?

PVW2 is what I would use if VW are present. I'm loathe to use it just in case though. Nematodes could be an option I guess as I am still at least 6-8 weeks away from a repot.

Great tip on the LJ's & I'm not going to bull and say yeah-yeah I knew that because I didn't and I thank you. My wife is sat in her chair wondering why the LJ's would be on the surface.

Oddly Crane-fly's were as rare as rocking horse doo last Autumn, we've never known a year with so few. It usually raises a chuckle most nights in bed when I am bobbing around on teh bed trying to shoo the things away.

"NOT a pretty sight!" Says my wife.

Hi Will, sorry no time to read the other posts today
I have heard that conifers are very adept at taking in "stuff" through thier leaves. This is one of the main reasons I understand that collected/repotted material should not have too much foliage removed. So just a feeling it makes sense that watering the leaves may be benificial to the health.
I was thinking after I posted yesterday that I still try to aviod watering the leaves after 4pm so they are not wet through the night but things dry off pretty quick here in the growing season anyway.

Hello Brett. I see on fb why you were in a hurry. Congratulations to the new member of your family

Dear all, I have to come back and please bear with me....
I still have questions.
Having made my narrow search (with my poor criteria...) I can understand that timing of spraying is most critical for the restriction of the infection and for obtaining good results.
So, does anyone knows the correct time to apply the fungicide treatment?

I remain greatly obliged to all of you!
This pine of mine is not something exceptional but this is my first tree really styled as bonsai (although bought one...) and I do want to keep it alive...


PS: I hate being suspicious but things make me believe that this tree was already infected when I received it at home....

Hello Alexandra. There is no reason why you cant give your first application now. The weather is starting to warm and daylength is increasing quickly, so trees are coming out of dormancy here in the UK. Then between two and four week intervals through the Summer until the new needles have hardened off.

Thank you, Will!
Have a nice Weekend!

Ha Ha the world is getting smaller Will. Thanks

Jim, Will is right you know anti transpirants are made on a silicone base and push water away, you now leafshine? Its used for eks. to shine the leaves of rubber trees for transport to look nice and shiney in the shops.
Its the same thing, it closes for transpiring dust wont settel that easy and water can not remove it, wate just runs of the silicone lair, it evaporates in time. The downside is leafs cant breath, some leafs take in from both sides and will survive more easely, but needles, get covered all way round due to the narrow shape.
I never mist my trees either never done it and never will, why hehe? I am to lazy

Peter

will baddeley wrote:..... I would be interested to know if their is any benefit to wetting foliage? Particularly Pines that are more droubt tolerant.

Hi Will

Thats is the point. There are normally no reason to water spray foliage in our Northern part of Europe, unless you want to wash of dirt and dust, or harmful predators (pests).
Pines benefits from not having water sprayed at needles during the period the needles grow (spring until middle of the summer), because dryer needles prevents these elongate too much until they are dark green and hardened off. And because pines are drought tolerant as well.
The main reason for spraying water on needles/leafs is to help trees that do not take up water enough through the roots.
Also during nights dew will be taken up by the leafs, and that is mostly enough.

In warmer climates it may help needle foliage to be misted too cool down and help water taken up.

Regards
Morten

My Scots Pine is suffering a serious attack of needle cast.

I was given a small bottle of Copper fungicide four weeks ago and was instructed to use 1 drop in a litre spray bottle, spray the whole tree - foliage and bark every two weeks. I've covered the soil before spraying and made sure everything was dry before removing the protection. It's had two sprays with the fungicide at two week intervals. Should I make the fungicide to water ratio stronger? Maybe two drops per litre of water? I removed the tree from its old pot, removed most of the old soil, but didnt root prune and planted it up in a larger pot with a much better draining soil.

The buds are now moving but the existing needles are going downhill fast. Will the new growth be enough to support the tree? I'm feeding the tree with Omakase and Sunball pellets.

Hello Paul. That is a very serious attack. Don't know anything about your liquid copper. Copper will not restore existing needles, only protect the new ones which fortunately look very healthy. Are there instructions on the bottle?

Hi Will,

The Copper fungicide is bright blue - I dont have the name of it just now but I'll find out at my next club meeting in early May. As far as I know its now banned in the UK. I was given a small plastic bottle of it, the instructions came from the guy who gave it to me. The tree was also given to me by the same person, he's had needle cast throughout his Pines in recent years but has managed to get the problem under control using this fungicide. Apparently it's now in woodland Pines in the area we both live in.

Glad to hear this should protect the new growth, I just hope it survives. This was the Pine styled by Terry Foster at Burrs last year.

I'll post the name of it as soon as I can.

Thanks

Paul B (Scotland) wrote: ... ... I've covered the soil before spraying and made sure everything was dry before removing the protection. .... ...

Will you, please Paul, provide some clarification for the reason of doing this? Is there some kind of danger from the fungicide if absorbed by the soil? Should we always protect the soil when using any kind of chemicals for spraying trees?
Thank you!

Hi Alexandra,

I was told to cover the soil and to avoid any dripping of the fungicide into the soil. I can only think it may have a harmful effect on the roots? I cover the top of the pot with cling film, then I give the tree a good soak - needles, shoots and bark. I leave the cling film over the pot for an hour or two until everything is dry before removing it.

I also isolate the tree from all my others while spraying - I was told Maples are particularly sensitive to the copper fungicide.

Hope this helps - I'll post the results of my Pine here.

Paul

Paul, thank you for the information!

Paul B (Scotland) wrote:
.... ... I was told Maples are particularly sensitive to the copper fungicide... ...

This is very interesting and helpful knowledge since I do have an acer palmatum.
I hope the results on your pine are favourable.

Paul B (Scotland) wrote:
Hi Alexandra,

I was told to cover the soil and to avoid any dripping of the fungicide into the soil. I can only think it may have a harmful effect on the roots? I cover the top of the pot with cling film, then I give the tree a good soak - needles, shoots and bark. I leave the cling film over the pot for an hour or two until everything is dry before removing it.

I also isolate the tree from all my others while spraying - I was told Maples are particularly sensitive to the copper fungicide.

Hope this helps - I'll post the results of my Pine here.

Paul

Hello Paul. Copper Fungicide will kill a lot of different fungi, including the beneficial mychorriza in the soil. If your using a fine mister for the treatment, then protecting the soil shouldn;t be necessary.