Pot production volume/speed-- split from _About Bonsai Pots & Potters_

Really good Robert thanks for posting.

Rob

If you cant hang onto those pots then thats excellent I have started bulk throwing 20 - 30 small to medium pots at a time and I still can't keep up. Looks like I may be able to retire at 50

Regards to you both

Andy

Great resource!!

That's the trick, trying not to sell everything so you can build an inventory. I still haven't figured it out.

Robert, Thank you for posting this resource!

May I pose a question for you Bonsai potmen & potresses?
How long does it take you to throw 20 or so medium pots?

As a bonsai pot wannabe, I'm curious. I realize all the prep work
to making that many pots is huge. But, just to throw them...
if you feel like answering...
Thanks,

Judy

Hi Judy, very good question. Plain Jane medium, one day, but that's the easy and fast part. I assume you know the rest of the story
Wood

Hi Judy,

I started learning how to throw 20 +/- years ago in college when I was an pursuing an art education degree. My professor really didn't teach us howto throw, we had to learn by doing. It was quite an experience.....

Now to your question. I am sorry to say that it is really unanswerable It depends on so many factors: clay prep (aargh!), number of bats available (to throw the clay on), etc., mood, level of concentration, level of plasticity of claybody, and familiarity with the particular clay you are using.....

I am up to the point now where on average, I can throw a lot in an hour, but it still takes a long time to get it ready. I have to wedge it, weigh it, center each piece, and so on. I am a LOT better and faster than I was back in college, so I guess it gets down to the old saying, 'practice makes perfect'.

well, hope this helps you on your journey....

Rob

Thanks for the reply, Rob.

On learning pottery, I've heard that many teachers made their students throw 100 'structures' (probably not really pots at first) until they could keep one.

Can't wait for stone monkey to put up some more vids of his pottery making adventures.

I'm learning alot from you IBCers.

Judy

Here's a non-potter question/idea proposal from a long time bonsai guy who has about 50 trees in pots over 22" in length.Recently a new potter in my area made me 24" pot and very nice. Usually I can only find Tokoname or Chinese(with chop) in the 20+to28" size. When I ask about this size to potters I get the "roll of the eyes" sigh, and standard-"no profit" There are plenty of us guys out there(the collectors, as well as the Suthins,Meislik,Kempinski,etc,) We all get these pots from Asia. It seems that there is a corner in the market for this(without making it a commissioned $800+) Someday I suppose someone(SE Asia??) will underprice and own this corner. Any thoughts. Dustin Mann

Hallo Judy,

hier etwas über die Herstellung von Bonsaischalen.

http://www.bonsaipots.net/index.php?page=clay-and-pottery
http://www.bonsaipots.net/index.php?page=drying-and-firing

Mit freundlichen Grüßen
Peter
_____________________________________________
DIE WELT DER POT: http://www.peter-krebs.de/

Judy,
I've been throwing for about 1.5-2yrs and don't do much prep, just cut off a chunk of prepared clay. I don't weigh just go by volume, 1/2 the block, or a 1/3 or whatever. Creating surface treatments as I do takes time, I can make 2 round 8" pots in an hour. Other shapes take longer, then you have to consider trimming or adding feet.

Peter
Thanks for the links. I am devouring the information. Just read how to test for frost resistance.
You are a great resource for my quest to understand.

Dustin
I've been potting for about 8 years and economy of scale is
in play here. Or, is it the Law of Diminishing Returns? ( For me it often is, lol )

Guy Wolff makes architectural pots - perhaps he would do a series of Bonsai Appropriate ones for you?
check him out on youtube.


Judy

Dustin Mann wrote:Here's a non-potter question/idea proposal from a long time bonsai guy who has about 50 trees in pots over 22" in length.Recently a new potter in my area made me 24" pot and very nice. Usually I can only find Tokoname or Chinese(with chop) in the 20+to28" size. When I ask about this size to potters I get the "roll of the eyes" sigh, and standard-"no profit" There are plenty of us guys out there(the collectors, as well as the Suthins,Meislik,Kempinski,etc,) We all get these pots from Asia. It seems that there is a corner in the market for this(without making it a commissioned $800+) Someday I suppose someone(SE Asia??) will underprice and own this corner. Any thoughts. Dustin Mann

Dustin,
I've seen a few posts from you lately about this query. Probably most potters here COULD throw a 22" finished pot if their wheel could support the clay turning and their bats and kiln shelfs will support the sizes, but there are a LOT of differences in how the Asians make these pots for export/retail/wholesale and how most USA home potters produce pots and fire them. Compairing the two production facilities is like compairing watermelons to apples.
It seems you want a 23" pot hand made in America for ...what?....$45.
I know where you probably get a lot of your large pots and these are often the 'Give Away' prices there to get rid of stock.
Perhaps you could get a better picture of the hand-made process by visiting a potter for a COUPLE DAYS while he builds/throws/assembles a big pot for you, which you lose a 50% deposit on if it were to crack in the last step. Now, when I do a commissioned pot I don't have any guarantees or collect a deposit or insist the pot is purchased when done if the customer doesn't like it, ( you can ask ANY of my customers about this) but, to get the real feel of the project I think you need to invest something in your research....like a possibly-lost deposit
One thing I've noticed about some folks when pricing hand-made items is that they never seem to figure the hourly salary for the artists time is quite as valuable as their hourly salary?

Dustin,
Here is a quick step show that I posted elsewhere a couple years ago ( but I removed about 2/3 of the pics here) that took several days , actually weeks considering drying and bisque and final high fire, and the pot actually turned out too big for the commission and had to be redone so i glazed it instead of the unglazed asked for..
Maybe it'll help .
It started out on the 24" bat.
Dale

Kitoi,

Going to the wheel with a large chunk cut off the 25# block,
seems to be the most relaxed and
spontaneous way to make a pot.
It is a delight for most of us to do that.
(We're just playing and we know it)

Dale, Thanks for those pics. A thousand words...
You Are the Huckleberry!
(I think I mixed the metaphors there)


To All:
Happy Mother's Day!

Judy

Hi Judy

I suppose when all the prep and weighing out is done and I have 20 balls of clay to throw and providing the pots is not fancy and had no rims, lips etc etc then I could throw about 20 8" pots in one hour, bearing in mind that I am not rushing or trying to break records.
This may interest you and other potters. A friend of mine Mark Byles from the Aylesford Pottery in Kent, UK broke the world record last summer and threw 150 pots in one hour



However if I was throwing a pot like Dale has showed, fab pot Dale by the way, then it would take me a long time for just one pot.
I will get some more videos done at some point, very busy getting ready for a show in France in a couple of weeks. Thanks for your kind comments though

All the best

Andy

Thanks for your reply,
Andy

Will watch the record throwing potter later. Am leaving for a little mother's day get together. My 82 y.o. mom cooked the dinner
That's the way we do it...

Judy

Sorry Dale for taking thread on a tangent. It started out about "mass production-how many can you thow in an hour" and I jumped in. Obviously became very personal; "I know where you get a ot of your large pots from"(Actually it is Baker/Meislik- Huth never has glazes); Let's see "you want an American handmade pot for..... $45" That really came out of nowhere. "I need to spend time watching....hourly salary...etc Sorry guys I don't want this to deteriorate to "you shrinks and lawyers charge hourly and want $45 pots" I know you potters work very hard and are extremely talented.You deserve compensation. Yes I have lost $350 deposit(twice). It's ok I will bow out. Dustin

Dustin,
I was simply trying to answer your query...

"When I ask about this size to potters I get the "roll of the eyes" sigh, and standard-"no profit" There are plenty of us guys out there(the collectors, as well as the Suthins,Meislik,Kempinski,etc,) We all get these pots from Asia. It seems that there is a corner in the market for this(without making it a commissioned $800+) Someday I suppose someone(SE Asia??) will underprice and own this corner. Any thoughts. Dustin Mann"

....As to why USA potters can't compete with Asian potteries for the price ranges we find for these big imported pots. Since I saw you ask the question before elsewhere I figured a response was in order.
BTW, I ALSO have some big trees....and I've bought a lot of those BIG Asian pots for $40-100! I've had lots of them crack and fall apart in winters.

Along these lines. Someday I would like to hear a one-off pot quote from an Asian potter ( Chinese or Japanese) requested to make one 22-26" pot, a certain size, and certain shape, and certain color. Just one where he doesn't already have the mold made? I wonder if Lindsay could ask about this someday during his travels? I think that would be interesting.


"I don't want this to deteriorate to "you shrinks and lawyers charge hourly and want $45 pots"

It appears you deteriorated to this.

I do remember once a few years ago at a bonsai show being asked by a shopper why a pot was so much? I told him there was a LOT of time in it! Not really expecting an answer, I asked him how much he was paid at his job whatever it was? he said $35 an hour( which probably also included health benefits, etc.) . I told him that I needed to raise my prices then!

Andy,
Impressive! and all the same size and diameter ( someone was measuring them I saw). It remindsme of the guys on the clay talk groups talking about throwing 200 tea bowls in a day!

I dunno, even if I had a market for them all I'd think I'd lose interest real fast.

heck, I feel rushed if I have to do 4 in a day!!

Are you practicing up for the next record contest?

D.

Hi Dale

It was impressive seeing all the pots thrown the same size and shape. But I agree with you wholeheartedly I would loose interest very very fast.

The reason for my bulk throwing started when a customer would regularly order 30-40 10cm shohin pots from me on a regular basis. I never used to repeat throw and I suppose after this order came in and watching Simon Leach and how he works, spurned me to throw in bulk, plus it got the order out faster than normal.

At the moment I do a happy medium of bulk throwing for stock, customer orders (which like you I do not charge anything until the end product is complete and the customer is happy) and also what ever I fancy making when the mood takes me. I think the important thing is creativity otherwise we end up going back to the same old mass produced samey bonsai ceramics that people like us steer clear from.

We have a store here over in the UK called John Lewis and there slogan is "Never knowingly under sold". I love this slogan as to me it means good competetive prices for their products but that does not neccesarily mean thay are cheap prices.

Regards

Andy

Chris C., thanks for the split-off, a good idea.

I understand the 'order' problem Andy. a couple years ago a bonsai dealer on here needed a bunch of scoops for workshops. I made 30 I think and I had two kilns full for two firings each due to their heights. They all had a fist-sized planting area . I was tired of trying to make all those scoops all look a bit different and different clays when all done!
They required a little trimming but I'd go nuts if I had to trim 30 of the same pots bottoms

I had to make 75 pots for the Bonsai Society of Florida convention registrants a few years ago. I started immediately after making the deal at the convention and finished one year later the night before I left! They were all 6-8" and I refused to make them all the same so every one was a one-off. I was relieved when I dropped off that box!

For the Washington, DC World Bonsai Show in 2005 I made 250 grass pots as banquet table favors. They were pinch scoops and L&W scoops mostly. If I recall I worked over a year doing those a few at a time as kiln fillers. They put 3 per table out and went to the youngest person, oldest person, and person with closest birthdate to that date among the 8 people at each table.

you probably have the same problems I do when two or three shows close together and playing catch-up. No tree or garden work getting done and firing both kilns at the same time. I'm glad I can count on Nancy to pack warm pots on the night before leaving for a show!

I like that slogan! Very sensible and honest.

Dale

Monotony is the mother of madness

Christ knows how you did all those scoop pinch pots for the Washington show. I think after the first 50 I would be throwing them at the wall of my pottery for fun or end up like Mr DiCaprio in "Shutter Island"!!!!

Seriously I feel that getting bulk orders from customers is a good thing as not only does it only teach tolerance & perseverance but also how to stay sane but there is bulk orders and there is bulk orders. I wonder if Josiah Wedgwood went insane through repetition had he not poisoned himself first with chemicals from his glazing. Come to think of it Simon Leach seems pretty sane from repeat throwing see his videos here they are the "mutts nutts" https://www.youtube.com/profile?user=sleachpots#g/ In one of his videos he stated "If you get too precious about one of your pots, then you are not making enough"

Your so lucky to have your good lady assist, mine divorced me xx years ago so I have to pack my own , that's crying cos I have no help not cos she divorced me, heck had I not got divorced then I would not be repeat throwing. Quid pro quo

All the best

Andy still very very sane, ish, wibble wibble

Peter
I cannot thank you enough for giving me the links on frost resistance. I was under the wrong impression that cone 6 (1185 c) was the best for bonsai.
This information was extremely helpful!

Andy
You might enjoy a book by mel jacobson, called Pottery A Life A Lifetime which is reasonably priced on amazon used. He packed up and went to
Japan to study under a master there. He tells the tale well. Also, many tips for potters and especially production throwing. Just thought you might enjoy it.
The usual disclaimer applies: I have no financial interest in your getting the book.

My regards to All,

Judy