Bonsai IS art - Ha!

I guess we need the 'Brangelina' pair to adopt some bonsai!

John Quinn wrote:I guess we need the 'Brangelina' pair to adopt some bonsai!

Since they are "artificially enhanced"--they would probably be big fans of tanuki!!

JimLewis wrote:But maybe we should spend more time making bonsai and less time spouting all this nonsense???

With 76 replies and 1713 views at the time of this posting, I think it would be safe to say (thankfully) that not everyone shares your opinion of this discussion. This is the most popular thread on IBC since its reopening. You must also consider that if we all spent all our time working on our bonsai instead of "spouting all this nonsense" IBC and all other forums would be non-existent.

The Internet does pose a problem though, which is that all we can view here are photographs of bonsai, making the art of photography very important, as a poor picture will not do justice to the subject matter, so when we see a great bonsai, is it the bonsai that is art or the photograph itself? With an Ansel Adam's photograph for example, it was the photograph that was art, not the sand dunes or other subject matter...could this be true with Internet bonsai? Or are we just photographing the subject which is art, such as a picture of "David" would be...or with the right talent, could both the photograph and subject be art?



Will

Will Heath wrote:
The Internet does pose a problem though, which is that all we can view here are photographs of bonsai, making the art of photography very important, as a poor picture will not do justice to the subject matter, so when we see a great bonsai, is it the bonsai that is art or the photograph itself? With an Ansel Adam's photograph for example, it was the photograph that was art, not the sand dunes or other subject matter...could this be true with Internet bonsai? Or are we just photographing the subject which is art, such as a picture of "David" would be...or with the right talent, could both the photograph and subject be art?

Nicely put Will. Lay off detractors and 'Good Will Hunting'... active debate stimulates the mind and extends understanding... and bonsai is so much more than 'putting wire on trees' why else would this post be so popular even if it comes around on a regular basis...
there are lots of new members who will not has seen previous incarnations of the 'Is Bonsai Art' debate.

Recognizing that there is a "power structure" in the art world is a far cry from wishing it were so with bonsai or the absolute declaration that something is not art unless a critic deems it so.

I have one question about the Picasso posted earlier in this thread. When did it become art? When Picasso painted it? Or when the first critic decided it was art? Or when a preponderance of the art "cognoscenti" decided it was?

I don't think these kinds of discussions are a waste of time. I think it's important to understand what's at stake and what's happening around us.

Chris

With 76 replies and 1713 views at the time of this posting, I think it would be safe to say (thankfully) that not everyone shares your opinion of this discussion. This is the most popular thread on IBC since its reopening.

and . . .

and bonsai is so much more than 'putting wire on trees' why else would this post be so popular bounce even if it comes around on a regular basis...

Actually, I think it is a sign of the sport's deep insecurity. <g>

You must also consider that if we all spent all our time working on our bonsai instead of "spouting all this nonsense" IBC and all other forums would be non-existent.

Ooh, I dunno. Folks do like to show what they can do. and ask (and occasionally, answer) questions.

bonsaikc wrote:Recognizing that there is a "power structure" in the art world is a far cry from wishing it were so with bonsai or the absolute declaration that something is not art unless a critic deems it so.

Chris, I hate to break it to you, but it is so in bonsai.

Take any of the most respected exhibits...better yet, let's take a new one, the First National Exhibit in America, recently held in New York, you were there, so was I. This exhibit showcased American Bonsai at its finest, the commemorative book will amortize the bonsai displayed there, the attendance was a Who's Who of American bonsai and....like other recognized exhibits, a person or group of persons decided what bonsai would be exhibited there. Also three people decided which bonsai deserved the awards given, One choice in particular caused quite a stir ( http://artofbonsai.org/forum/viewtopic.php?f=22&t=2641 ).

The major bonsai magazines decides who is published, whose bonsai are worthy, and which bonsaists are promoted as artists.

The same goes for forums on-line. The management decides which bonsai go in the beginner sections and which are hailed as deserving. AoB has very high standards and the editors there decide on galleries, interviews, and the world renowned contests there showcase some of the very best bonsai in the world, the winners of which are decided upon by a few artists deemed good enough to judge.

The few decide, that is just the way it is. There is a power structure in the art world and in the art of bonsai, it is no different.

bonsaikc wrote:I have one question about the Picasso posted earlier in this thread. When did it become art? When Picasso painted it? Or when the first critic decided it was art? Or when a preponderance of the art "cognoscenti" decided it was?
Chris

What came first, the chicken or the egg?

We could find many examples of very good work that never made it, that never got accepted by the galleries, critics, curators, etc. Sometimes such work is never accepted, sometimes it is only after the artist has long been dead....who can understand the process, the reasons, we can only know it happens. Are the powers that be always right? Hardly, urinals, soup cans, and feces pollute and yet expose the way things are, but mostly, they get it right.

Picasso showed talent as early as when he was seven, obviously greatly talented, he later sold paintings to friends and then to patrons who admired and collected his work, Yet many would argue that he did not "make it" until the exhibit at the Museum of Modern Art in New York City, Anyhow, the painting became art when it was placed into a fine art environment, which means that it was accepted by those who run such environments. For example, it wasn't until 1905 when American collectors showed interest in his work that he became "an artist" and followed by his joining Daniel-Henry Kahnweiler's art gallery in Paris, he was accepted. But we have had this discussion before Chris ( http://artofbonsai.org/forum/viewtopic.php?f=15&t=751 ).

Did you know he created over 50,000 pieces in his life? Not bad for a guy who was once accused of stealing the Mona Lisa.


"Art is never chaste. It ought to be forbidden to ignorant innocents, never allowed into contact with those not sufficiently prepared. Yes, art is dangerous. Where it is chaste, it is not art." - Picasso

hi all, great debate this one but a shame to see it get a little tainted and out of hand at times,likes, dislikes, preferences,taste ect,ect is what makes us all tick i suppose and i will try to give my example of this,my dad who passed away sadly in 2007 was so proud of his garden winning many trophies and prizes for it,in the summer the little bungalow with it,s plantings,flowers,shrubs and hanging baskets was an absolute picture he loved it,it was his art his creation,well just the other day for the first in a long time i went to have a look at it an to my horror the front had been ripped up only to be replaced by a big gray concrete slab with two cars parked on it he would have been devastated by it but thats it, one mans pleasure another mans pain . bob hill

I still think these threads are more about the art of debate than the art of BONSAI mate Brian

hi Brian, i know what you mean mate it all gets a bit heavy yeah,anyway just to change the subject have you seen the picture of tony the tree and the plane in the background it shouts volumes great,it would look good on a pink Floyd pl cover,really good to see you at the dragon winter show and hope to see you soon,BOBB i hope. regards bob hill

Bear wrote:I still think these threads are more about the art of debate than the art of BONSAI mate Brian

Your completly wright, why cant we accept that bonsai is a horticultural "art"


Kind regards
Peter

As a qualified and determined artist who is at one with her field I can understand the misinterpretation. To be either, one has to have a solid grounding and unrockable desire to create a piece that is perfection.

As someone who has been doing bonsai for only five years, I love the process: the manner in which I can lose all sense of time when I'm sitting on my deck working on my trees. It doesn't matter whether it is art or not. It is the process.