Indoor Bonsai under LED lights.

funckdren wrote:Thanks for the quick reply. Do any of your willow leaf figs show signs of stress when you bring them in from outdoors? Mine are still dropping a few leaves almost every day...exactly what happened under metal halide last winter.

Also, are there other opinions from anyone else about distance of LED lights from the canopy? I'm finding manufacturer recommendations that range from 8" to 30". Pretty big range.

I actually don't have any Willow Leaf Ficus at the moment, sold them all. No particular reason, they just were smaller stock. When I did have them and brought them indoors they would typically drop leaves, though. Make sure you check for bugs.

I have just started experimenting with my panels, but I got some problems already. I put my small jades under the panel and to my astonishment the tree started to drop leaves! But not the ones that died but "healthy", thick and full of juices ones. I moved my panels higher now (about 10 inches above the tree) and put one of the tree back to the windowsill for reference. If there is a problem in the distance from the panel in my case that would mean that you guys using Onyx Veg should move your panels way above the trees, at least 20" I guess or even more (I do not use additional lenses to focus LED lights as Onyx does and my panel is 1/3 the power of Onyx).

Best,
Marcin

funckdren wrote:

Also, are there other opinions from anyone else about distance of LED lights from the canopy? I'm finding manufacturer recommendations that range from 8" to 30". Pretty big range.

There is logically no "fixed" distance that fit all different units from all manufacturers, hang the lights high then gradually lower them every week, once you see any form of bleaching or other signs of problem back of a few inches and you should have found the sweet spot.

Got a hold of some large and old (35-40 year) Crassula Ovata plants, they are originally "window plants" that have spent summers outdoors, 2 will remain "window bushes" and the other 2 have started there training as Bonsai.


They have now been repotted, cut down and partially wired then placed in a new and improved HOMEbox 4x2 growtent under my 2 ApacheTech units, ~300Watts of pure 6200K, lights ~20cm from the 2 trees, i did change the lenses from 30 degrees to 60 to reduce intensity... still get ~90-100.000LUX in the middle of the trees canopy, that's intensity as the SUN on a clear summers day somewhere in the Tropics!



So will see if i also run in to any "+6000K troubles" due to intensity... hope not...

Dreamcast,

That is what I did...I moved my panel away and keep observing. For the moment I can see a lot of new buds, but still you cannot touch some leaves as they could fall off easily. I still keep second crassula at the windowsill and it looks similar for the moment (no problem with falling off leaves however).

You have tested so many LED units, could you summarize a little bit your findings? I mean, what wattage would you recommend, what type of spectrum (white LEDs, or "full spectrum" like M30 consisting of several different colors, or maybe tunable Lumia LED etc.), any observable differences among various panels?

I am using my CREE XM-L2 whit LED panels too short to draw any serious conclusions :/ Basing on what I read I can assume that white LED only panels are slightly worse than full spectrum color mix ones (only blue and red are not in fashion any more ).

Please keep us updated on your jade trees under such a strong white lights.

Best regards,
Marcin

Dreamcast wrote:There is logically no "fixed" distance that fit all different units from all manufacturers, hang the lights high then gradually lower them every week, once you see any form of bleaching or other signs of problem back of a few inches and you should have found the sweet spot.

They have now been cut down and partially wired and placed in a new and improved HOMEbox 4x2 growtent under my 2 ApacheTech units, ~300Watts of pure 6200K, lights ~20cm from the 2 trees, i did change the lenses from 30 degrees to 60 to reduce intensity... still get ~90-100.000LUX in the middle of the trees canopy, that's intensity as the SUN on a clear summers day somewhere in the Tropics!

So will see if i also run in to any "+6000K troubles" due to intensity... hope not...

kensei wrote:Dreamcast,

That is what I did...I moved my panel away and keep observing. For the moment I can see a lot of new buds, but still you cannot touch some leaves as they could fall off easily. I still keep second crassula at the windowsill and it looks similar for the moment (no problem with falling off leaves however).

You have tested so many LED units, could you summarize a little bit your findings? I mean, what wattage would you recommend, what type of spectrum (white LEDs, or "full spectrum" like M30 consisting of several different colors, or maybe tunable Lumia LED etc.), any observable differences among various panels?

I am using my CREE XM-L2 whit LED panels too short to draw any serious conclusions :/ Basing on what I read I can assume that white LED only panels are slightly worse than full spectrum color mix ones (only blue and red are not in fashion any more ).

Please keep us updated on your jade trees under such a strong white lights.

Best regards,
Marcin

Well, one can get a slightly more efficient spectrum using mixes of monochrome LED chips in the right balance, this thanks to quality chips like Philips REBEL, special Horticultural chips from OSRAM and CREE's killer 630&660nm chips to name a few.

But, IMO for our application of growing indoor Bonsai then white spectrum LED units are the absolute best overall, and since white chips are the once most used by the public they are also the ones company's work the most on, and even today we have chips pumping out +200 Lumens per watt in cooler K-temps if driven soft, par that with a high efficiency quality driver and you have a winner IMO.
And then also remember that the best HID deliver somewhere around 140 Lumens per watt so nothing wrong with the efficiency of white LED chips.

And IMO there are many other reasons why white LED units fit Bonsai better then purple/pink ones:

Its nicer on the eyes and makes displaying trees in a open setup much more enjoyable.

If one has trees under lights all year round it at least seams logical that they will live happier with a LED light that resemble sun light as much as possible.
And in theory it should also makes the trees less stressed if moved outdoors for the summer if they have spent winter under white LEDs compared to purple/pink ones.


This being said all LED units i have tested work great! they are just designed so differently that its hard to compare them really... and if i tried it would take me many pages to summarize it...

But i can tell you what my dream LED light for Bonsai is (as of now) after testing this many different units:

A White spectrum ~200watt unit with silent cooling fans, maybe both cool and warm white that can be dimmed either with knobs on the unit or by a digital controller.
I would like a dead silent unit, but the heatsink needed to passively cool ~200watt is to BIG and HEAVY! and it needs to have a size and weight that is manageable for most people.

This type of "universal unit" would fit most peoples setups i think, it would be possible to control growth somewhat with cool and warm white on separate dimming channels, it could be used in larger setups thanks to it being so powerful, but could also be used in smaller setups thanks to the dimming.

Introducing the light to trees would also be no problem thanks to dimming, no more rising and lowering the light, also great for people that have limited headroom to work with.


Hope this helps some.

Dreamcast,

Great summary even though I would like to know your thoughts about each (or top 5) panels

Coming back to your jade trees and the lux number you gave... it looks huge! Basing on those two sites:
Estimations of light requirements
Some LUX to umole conversion considerations

if you assume that jade could require roughly the same amount of light as ficus (lets take upper limit from the above mentioned website for ficus for calculations) we can see that the total DLI is c.a. 30 mole/m2/day. That translates to requirement for lighting of roughly 700 umole/m2/sec for 12/12 hours lighting pattern.

Now if you try to convert that units into lux (I do not have PAR meter, so for me that type of calculation is the only option ) it gives something about 50 000 lux, e. g. half of what you have. I found as well that, when making experiments with crassula some scientists assumed 23 mole/m2/day instead of 30, that would translate to even lower light requirements.

What do you think about that?

Best regards,
Marcin

Marcin,

I am very glad you brought this up! i toke the time to try and get some more accurate readings of the ApacheTech lights after reading your post, and sadly it seams like my meter has finally given up after all these years of service, it gives different readings all the time and is now clearly useless!
Its good that they are dirt cheap so will get a new one tomorrow and take new readings.

In this video from 2011 a guy takes PAR readings from a ApacheTech AT120WR, sure, its the White/Red spectrum version, but PAR readings should be around the same even for my all 6200K version.

If he gets PAR reading of +1000 at 12 inches with the standard 30 degree lens configuration, then i assume at around the same distance i should now have ~500umole/m2/sec when i changed to 60 degree lenses, if so then that would be pretty good numbers i think and well within reach for light requirements for these 2 big Crassula trees based on your calculations.

But maybe that's not the way to calculate the different between 30 and 60 degree lenses, so i will off course have to change back to 30 degree lenses on one of the units and take new fresh accurate LUX readings of both units with a new fresh LUX meter to validate this.

Would love to get some really accurate readings of all my lights with a real PAR meter, i know Apogee have now released a USB version that's a little less expensive... Maybe next year, maybe.

I have to add to my previous dos and don'ts DIY LED panel list:
Do buy adjustable power supply to make your panel dimmable. Now to change my power supply I would have to spend extra USD55 per panel :/ for a nice 3A regulated power supply. Still hesitating...

Best regards,
Marcin

[What regulated power supply's are you looking at?

Dreamcast,

I am considering that one:
Regulated power supply.

The shop's site is in Polish but you can see that parameters look like perfect match form my 10 x CREE XM-L2 panel:
Constant current regulated up to 3A (exactly max current for XM-L2)
Voltage 30-36 - perfect for 10 x XM-L2 in series

Price...well... USD 1 equal 4 PLN now.

Best regars,
Marcin

Dreamcast wrote:[What regulated power supply's are you looking at?

Marcin, any idea how efficient that power supply is? this is actually something many people overlook when looking at LED units, IMO the right power supply is nearly as important as the LED chips being used, only a few % better efficiency of the power supply makes a lot of difference on overall performance.

Dreamcast,

I have no data on the efficiency of that power supply. I can only estimate from the power supply I currently have (I guess that is the same Chinese producer). It looks like the efficiency of the whole panel is something like 88-89% (calculated from the XM-L2 chart for 2.4A and matched against watt-meter: looks like @2.4A single XM-L consumes 7.728W (looks like 3,22V on the chart), times 10 LEDs and we have 77 W vs. measured consumption 87W). It's difficult to say what is the exact efficiency of the power supply itself, but should not be much higher...

But my first question is: why should I bother? Isn't it like that that efficiency matters only in two cases: cost of electricity and light efficiency. First in my case is not important as the difference between power supplies in terms of electricity cost will be small (due to small overall power of the panel). Second is important if I wanted to run the LEDs at full power, which I am not going to do. Of course relative to the nominal amperage I could be "worse off", but applying that regulated power supply I could even be able to drive LEDs to higher amperage than now (not reaching full 10W because of the efficiency issue).

The second question: do you know any alternatives in terms of regulated powers supply of the similar power (100W and max constant current 3A)?

Best regards,
Marcin

Dreamcast wrote:Marcin, any idea how efficient that power supply is? this is actually something many people overlook when looking at LED units, IMO the right power supply is nearly as important as the LED chips being used, only a few % better efficiency of the power supply makes a lot of difference on overall performance.

~88-89% efficiency is definitely good number IMO and i think you can be happy with those numbers for your panels, if a power supply have something like ~80% efficiency then it can be a good idea to upgrade.

I know MeanWell makes some very high quality LED power supply's with dimming in that power range with up 93% (maybe higher even) efficiency, but i would assume they are rather expensive, and like i said 88-89% efficiency is in the higher range already.

Got a new LUX meter and took some new readings and it looks like my previous meter was right after all in its initial readings,  ~90.000LUX at ~20cm.
The 2 Crassula trees have only had about 10 leafs fallen of and lots of new buds appearing all over.
So, no major problems here due to intensity, how is it going for you guys?

Photo update coming soon where i will also show the new and improved HOMEbox tent that will be launched sometime early 2016.

Dreamcast,

I have converted one of my panels into dimmable one and now it works great (still waiting for the second power supply to arrive). No more hassle with lifting the light. What can be interesting is that you can easily convert Sanlight M30 into dimmable light by changing the power supply into Recom RACD35-A, 500mA version. That is info I got from Sanlight.

I have made some kind of transparent grow tent for my ficus and now the humidity inside is 90-99%. Ficus has just exploded with new shoots! I am now working on the temperature side. I have a temperature controller, but still working on the heater side. Firstly I have used a heating cable, but it looks like it has too small area to heat my grow tent and I have to run it very hot to get proper temp inside. Because it is lying just beside the pots I guess I can easily overheat the roots. I ordered heating plate used in terrariums and two heat sinks (to put the plate between them, fortunately found those for 1.5 USD on Polish eBay equivalent) and will try to make that kind of heater instead of the cable. Will see how it works.

I am very pleased with the setup I currently have as everything I put inside starts growing like crazy (ficus of course but also a basil). Looks like humidity, temperature and light are far inappropriate for my plants outside the tent.

Oh, BTW, I got some mold of my ficus before installing a heater, but used a fungicide and now the problem is gone.

Best regards,
Marcin

Dreamcast wrote:Got a new LUX meter and took some new readings and it looks like my previous meter was right after all in its initial readings,  ~90.000LUX at ~20cm.
The 2 Crassula trees have only had about 10 leafs fallen of and lots of new buds appearing all over.
So, no major problems here due to intensity, how is it going for you guys?

Photo update coming soon where i will also show the new and improved HOMEbox tent that will be launched sometime early 2016.

Marcin, Thanks for the info about those drivers for the M30, IMO every LED should have a dimmer to make it more flexible.
I know the ApacheTech units MeanWell drivers have dimmer function, but to utilize it one would have to open up the units every time to change light output by a screw on the drivers.. dimmer knobs on the enclosure would been great on these lights.

Nice to hear you also found the benefits of using a "Closed setup", it really makes all the difference!
There should be no problem with mold once you get stable heat inside the tent.

Have to say i don't have a clue how Yvonne could have moss growing on the soil in this type of setup... and since she no longer around i can't ask here for advice either.... to bad.
I tried it and sure the moss was very very happy but after around a week there was also small patches of mold here and there on the moss on most trees... so i decided to get rid of the moss quick and sprayed trees, substrate and pots with Neemoil, now everything is back to normal.
Its to bad i could not keep the moss cause the trees loved it!! roots where growing like crazy! so will try it again later, but then i will buy moss spores and grow my own directly inside the setup, the mold i got could maybe have been due to the moss being collected.

From what i have learned so far:
NEVER use normal clay pots! you will get algae like crazy on the pots since they will constantly suck in moisture from the air! this algae also spreads to other part of the setup, also got some small black bugs that was hanging around the algae on the pots, since i moved everything to plastic and stoneware pots and sprayed everything down with Neemoil i have had very very very little algae problems.

NEVER use organic fertilizer pellets or alike, i added Green Dream and mold/fungus got hold of it after only a couple of days!

I know Yvonne used a mix of organic and inorganic for her trees, but to be on the safe side i think a 100% inorganic substrate mix is the best in this type of humid setup, the more sanitary and clean one can keep the setup the better IMO.
And no need to spray/mist the trees with water (obviously), but even be careful when watering, water on the leaves, branches and trunks will increase the risk of fungus and mold in such a humid environment.
1 maybe 2 applications of Neemoil spray a month is also a good prevention method IMO.

Also off course remember you will now not have to water nearly as often. ITS GREAT!

Any photos of your new setup maybe?

I reworked my setup so that it's much cleaner looking and spreads the light out evenly. The trees are in the other room, they were treated for mites today.

this reminds me of a scene from the show Dexter

bucknbonsai wrote:this reminds me of a scene from the show Dexter

Hope everyone's Xmas and New Years celebration was good.

The 2 ApacheTech units proved to be to much light for the 2 Crassula trees after all, some serious bleaching on the new leaves and stunted growth, since i have no more headroom and can't dim the lights i decided to change to the GrowNorthern HS1 unit instead, and with a new lens for wider light distribution it is now rather effectively covering both these big trees with only ~75Watt, no more bleaching and growth have started to pick up, and fast.

In one third of the new tent i have some Bonchi projects and a Fuchsia, the chillis have been under the DIY light for some time now, its amazing what one can achieve in terms of wanted growth patterns with an adjustable and programmable spectrum, this light really is something special.

The M30's and the propagators are doing there thing, very fast and strong growth, still no sign of any fungus, mold or pests, "Yvonne's method" is definitely validated as working great!


I really love being able to work on trees when its -20 Celsius and 40cm of snow outside.

For those interested in getting a grow tent i can really recommend this new one from HOMEbox, its gray instead of the normal black and actually looks quite good IMO, i like very much the large windows so one can look at the trees without letting any humidity out, a very solid and flexible tent with many ways of configuring it.

Nice setup, I'm so happy to find this thread, I'm growing a small ficus benjamina under cfl and cheap led grow light at work . No sun, low humidity, only perlite with a bit of potting soil. I'm looking for better led light and I may build a small grow box with plastic sheet but for now I'm growing a long sacrificial branch to thick the base so the box should be to big for my desk....sorry for my poor english!

Alex

Alex, thanks for tuning in to the "Bonsai Led Thread".

Sounds like a fun little project you have going, like i tell everyone posting in this thread, fell free to share photos and what not for other enthusiasts to take inspiration from.

And your English is fine!

I'll post pic once my little diy led project is finish, 4 cree XTE royal blue + 2 XTE neutral white on a CPU heatsink...

Alex, will be very interesting to see your DIY unit, with that much amount of blue in the spectrum you should see some serious compact growth!
Just a word of advice, keep a good distance from quality blue LED chips and trees, they can bleach your plant badly if kept to close, i have seen a tendency to this my self and heard others who have seen some serious "crippled" growth under to intense blue dominate spectrum's.

Will your setup also be exposed to natural sunlight or will the DIY light be the only light source?