Indoor Bonsai under LED lights.

Hi Dreamcast

I find the ApacheTech's AT120W very interesting, but also expensive, if I have to buy it in USA... can a similar lamp be bught in europe?...do you have a good another option you could recomend?

Kind regards Yvonne

Yvonne Graubaek wrote:Hi Dreamcast

I find the ApacheTech's AT120W very interesting, but also expensive, if I have to buy it in USA... can a similar lamp be bught in europe?...do you have a good another option you could recomend?

Kind regards Yvonne

Yvonne, the AT120W is very expensive i know, but IMO its a light that can easily replace a 400-600Watt Metal Halide in light intensity depending on the distance from the trees.
To get this intense light from only 120 1Watt LED's (~170Watt real power draw with fans and drivers) Apache use top bin Nichia LED's and lenses that have a very narrow angle, if i remember correctly the company have patent on these lenses, but don't quote me on that.
The drawback from using such narrow lens angles is light coverage, like i mentioned in a earlier post, its like a giant flashlight.
When it comes to build quality, materials and components being used i can somewhat understand the price, would be surprised if these lights dose not last for a very very long time.
Since its a very heavy light (~7 kilos) one thing to consider is also the shipping costs from USA to EU.

All this being said, i have not used this light for long enough to say its definitely worth the high price, but my experience so far is very positive, one thing i had to do was replace the fans for silent ones, if not it sounded like i had a Jet plane in my living room.

There are very few company's that i know of witch uses 100% white LED spectrum in there lights, and those that do use White top bin LED's from for example Cree, Nichia, Osram and then also quality efficient drivers and huge heat sinks, this is what makes them so good but also expensive.

In USA there are a couple of choices, ApacheTech's AT120W and Rapidled's Onyx Vegg (6400k), i am testing the Onyx Bloom right now, and its also a very impressive light so i can imagine the 6400K version being just as good but for non flowering trees. There are some more company's out of USA, but i can't comment on any of them since i have no experiences with them.

If wanting to buy from EU i can really recommend SANlights M30 that i now use in the grow tent, its the only "white" spectrum light in EU witch i know of, one very positive thing using these small lights is that one unit can be used over each Bonsai (if a bigger tree more may be needed), if greater light intensity is desired more units can be hang closer to each other, the flexibility are really endless with these small lights, they can be hanged horizontal, vertical or on a angle, and all this with hanging accessorizes that comes with each unit, they also sell a simple frame witch allows for even more mounting options, my friends call it the LEGO LED system.   
Since the M30's implement small reflector cups for each LED instead of lenses like the AT120W and Onyx, it has a little better light spread but not as intense light output, this off course also since its only ~30Watt, to solve this one can like i said hang more units closer to each other or just move the light/lights closer to the trees.
they are top quality lights using top bin Osram LED's, huge heatsinks and very good drivers, 100% silent operation from both light and drivers.
The spectrum is a combination of White and red LED's, in photos the light looks very reddish in color, but in person its a very pleasant slightly warm white light.

These 2 pictures from SANlight simply explains the difference in using one big LED compared to more small ones.



All the lights i use work great, its all about getting the light/lights that fit ones setup and trees, i hope this helps a little, Yvonne.

Hi Dreamcast

Many thanks for your answer....the M30 looks like a LED usefull for me....
•continuous light spectrum from 400nm to 760nm....do you have any idea how this should be understood, as 400 is not enough, and 760 is more than needed for white light.

Kind regards Yvonne

Yvonne, the M30 really is a great little light, very powerful for its size.
I like the flexibility and the fact that one can always buy more lights if needed.

Will explain to the best of my knowledge..

400nm is somewhere around ultraviolet light and 760nm is around infrared light, and everything in between is the visible light spectrum, so a continuous light spectrum from 400nm to 760nm means its a full spectrum white light with every nanometer in there that a plant may need.

White lights all have a continuous light spectrum in that range from ~400nm to ~760nm but in different proportions depending on the purpose.
2700Kelvin lights are more rich in the red part of the spectrum (~620nm-660nm+) for flowering/fruiting plants.
6400Kelvin lights have more blue (~400nm-460nm+) for vegetative growth.

Hope this helps.

ahh..thank you   ...I understand the lamps constant send 400nm to 760nm-...not more, not less...am I right?

kind regards Yvonne

From what i understand somewhere over or maybe just under 800nm it is just radiating heat, and somewhere under 400nm there is UV light that's harmful for humans and plants as well i think, not sure..

So what one want in a grow light is a spectrum witch cover the absorption peaks for chlorophyll A and B within ~400nm-~760nm.


As you can see there are no major peaks in the green part of the spectrum, there are some other pigments that has peaks in green but they also have good absorption rates in the blue and red spectrum, so the green part of the spectrum was long considered by many to be useless for growth, this i believe is the reason why the first LED grow lights where just red and blue.
Later study's i seen have shown that green actually acts as booster if high levels of red and blue light is present, its also good for penetrating the canopy to promote better lower and inner growth, just what we want for Bonsai.

If i remember correctly far red ~760nm in mild doses also helps with growth in shaded areas, also heard red spectrum in general is good for root growth.

Here is the specs for the M30 from SANlights webpage.
http://sanlight.info/wp-content/uploads/Technische-Daten-SANlight-M30.pdf
as you can see the spectrum cover most absorption point, also note that a big part of the spectrum is focused in the red range, this in theory should promote leggy growth with long internode spacing, but i cant really say i have experienced this with the M30's... i will get some photos tomorrow from one of the Ficus.M and you can judge for your self.

Sure the Ficus.M fusing projects i have under the AT120W is even more compact in growth, but this is expected from a 6100K light with such a intense light, its also 120Watt.
Would be very interesting to see for examples Mr.Meislik replacing all his HID lights for AT120W's or the even more powerful AT200W, or a bunch of Onyx Vegg panels, all those panels are crazy powerful!

Will have a little photo update on friday, hopefully some hibiscus flowers under the Onyx Bloom will have opened by then.





Dose anyone know if it is possible to fuse hibiscus plants together?

I just finished setting up my grow box and hung my light. Now to wait for the colder months so I can use the light.

Ryan, it looks great! what was the power draw of that monster?

And please, a photo of it on!

All lights are doing great!

Trees under the Apache grows fast and with very compact internodes, cutting them back often.

Under the Onyx Bloom my Hibiscus is flowering, and some Chili's are are ready to be harvested, the light is definitely doing what it was designed for.


In the bigger HOMEbox everything is growing like crazy, no change there. Would be much more even light coverage in the tent with 2-4 more M30's and a longer hanging frame, but still its pretty impressive that only 180Watts of LEDs is doing such a good job in a 4x2 area, much is off course thanks to the reflecting interior of the HOMEbox.
One can get a very energy efficient setup combining these tents with LED's.


In the smaller HOMEbox things are going great to, decided to skip the CFL .vs. LED thing, will not prove anything really, quality LEDs are much more efficient then CFL's, no doubt about it.

The HOMEbox Q30 and the M30 could be made for each other, like a hand in a glove!

I like how one can use just the frame of the tent with the LED as well, will not win any prices for being a pretty display alternative, but kinda neat and handy setup if one wants to make use of LED and sunshine from a window at the same time.


Would like to get a automatic watering system going.. or i may just have to rethink my soil mix, things are drying up much faster now under LEDs, and i actually have a hard time keeping up some days, seams like the trees just work harder and drink more now, same soil mix as when i used CFL lights before, and radiating heat from CFLs and LEDs are about the same, temps are just one degree Celsius higher inside the tent then ambient temperatures so should not be heat related at all...

Hi Dreamcast

The information you give us, is of high value to those who play with indoorbonsai
It is time you are being nominated to be moved to the topic  "Top Threads"

Many thanks, kind regards Yvonne

Yvonne Graubaek wrote:Hi Dreamcast

The information you give us, is of high value to those who play with indoorbonsai
It is time you are being nominated to be moved to the topic  "Top Threads"

Many thanks, kind regards Yvonne

Thanks! Yvonne, you are to kind, i am just glad to contribute with what i can.

Best regards.

Dreamcast wrote:Ryan, it looks great! what was the power draw of that monster?

And please, a photo of it on!

Not sure what the actual draw is, I'd assume around 450W. Here it is turned on, and boy is it bright:

very cool setup

just be careful if do the same in UK. police helicopters will see and bust door down with weed growing suspicions

I've begun moving my trees indoors under my LED:

Almost all moved in...

Ryan, looks great! have the trees shown any signs of stress due to change in light spectrum?

Dreamcast wrote:Ryan, looks great! have the trees shown any signs of stress due to change in light spectrum?

So far, no signs of stress.

This is next LED to test, its a DIY kit from a Aquarium LED company named LEDgroupbuy, it has functions like Sunrise and Sunset, individual control over each nm, and much more, i am building it as we speak, in next update i will go over the building, functions, quality and more.

Looks like computer parts most of it, unless one zoom in.. almost all top bin Cree chips on solid copper plates, nice stuff.


After a rather massive spidermite attack my garden have looked better... but neem oil is some good stuff.
Updates on the garden and all lights coming soon.

Hi Dreamcast

Look forward to see your results with the next lamps...how many more are you planning to test
I think I already found a "setup" among the lamps you have tested, that will work for me.

Kind regards Yvonne

Thanks you Ian, from http://bonsaieejit.com/ for directing me to this. I am having great success with my 5W LED system for my chilli bonsai plant. Its been going for about 4 weeks now and it seems to be loving it because on a 12/12 cycle its flowering! The start of my journey is here http://www.chillibonsai.com/plant-lover-t1/ Im hopefully going to be making a "no brainer" kit out of this eventually ... any feedback would be appreciated !

Yvonne Graubaek wrote:Hi Dreamcast

Look forward to see your results with the next lamps...how many more are you planning to test
I think I already found a "setup" among the lamps you have tested, that will work for me.

Kind regards Yvonne

Yeah, this light is very different from the rest i tried, also fun building it my self and learning how it works in the process.

I don't know when i will stop testing lights.. i have lately read a lot about induction lights and it sounds promising, the fact that Tesla is the inventor makes it extra interesting.

I am really looking forward to see how the LEDs work for you.

laithmarmash wrote:Thanks you Ian, from http://bonsaieejit.com/ for directing me to this. I am having great success with my 5W LED system for my chilli bonsai plant. Its been going for about 4 weeks now and it seems to be loving it because on a 12/12 cycle its flowering! The start of my journey is here http://www.chillibonsai.com/plant-lover-t1/ Im hopefully going to be making a "no brainer" kit out of this eventually ... any feedback would be appreciated !  

laithmarmash, Very cool project!! i love Bonchies , i have looked in to a automatic watering system for my garden to, a little bigger then yours, but the same principal, having sensors and such is not necessary since i use a 100% soil-less mix, overwatering is almost impossible.
In my case i think a big water tank and a rather powerful pump watering each trees with 1 or 2 spray nozzles, good humidity is solved with the use of a grow tent.

Think you should implement a higher watt LED system, 5 watts will not be enough over time if you want good stable growth, and for a larger tree you definitely need more light, also make it overhead (and adjustable in height) rather then from the side, having to spin the plant often to get balanced growth and reposition of the water nozzle every time will kill the vibe of user friendly automatic plant system.

And there is no need for a extra white display light, today's top bin white LED chips from good manufacturers work perfect for plants, more full spectrum and most of them even sport higher lumens per watt then HID lights.

Hope your project will be a huge success, please keep us updated.

This is also a good version for a automatic water system, reusing water should make it better for long vacations.
As long as one use a soilless mix of good particle size and spray nozzles then this system will work very well i think.

What color LEDs are you using for this build?

Ryan wrote:What color LEDs are you using for this build?

If you referring to the light i am building, then it will be a test in two stages, the fixture can only light one of the 2 LED boards at a time.

I will test these 2 LED boards.

1. Lumia 5.2 Full spectrum version.
LED layout:
Channel 1 - 3 Hyper Violet (430nm) and 2 True Violet (410nm) (Violet channel) (18v @ 700mA)  *as of June 1st 2014
Channel 2 - Royal Blue (base blue spectrum) (16.5V @ 1500mA)
Channel 3 - 3 XT-E Netural White and 2 XT-E Warm White (base white color) (16.5V @ 1500mA)
Channel 4 - Turquoise / CREE XPE2 Blue (enhanced color spectrum) (17.2V @ 700mA)
Channel 5 - - 3 Hyper Violet and 2 CREE XT-E Royal Blue (Actinic channel) (18v @ 700mA)
http://www.ledgroupbuy.com/cree-lumia-5-2-70w-full-spectrum-5-channel-cree-led/

2.Lumia 5.2 Grow version.
LED layout:
Channel 1 - XTE-E Royal Blue (base blue spectrum for vegetation) (18V @ 1500mA)
Channel 2 - 730nm Hyper Red (designed for sunrise / sunset) (11v @ 350mA) - Key wavelength to get optimal growth
Channel 3 - 660nm Deep Red (flowering spectrum) (13V @ 700mA)
Channel 4 - 660nm Deep Red (flowering spectrum) (13V @ 700mA)
Channel 5 - XT-E Warm White (high noon effect) (18V @ 1500mA)
http://www.ledgroupbuy.com/cree-lumia-5-2-65w-grow-led-5-channel-for-plants/

Will be interesting with the dimming and timer functions of the fixture, to be able to really fine tune the light spectrum should not just be useful for growing, but also interesting to play around with when photographing ones trees.