Indoor Bonsai under LED lights.

brett2013 wrote:
Well, nothing beats real sunlight, but LEDs are a great alternative so far. After measurements using my meter outside, my 400w LED light is more like half the power of the morning sun, overall around the growing area.  It is full power and even more if I put the meter right under the light, but that would mean only 1 plant, which is not practical.  Anyway, all doing well, the plants get 12 hours of light so I guess that compensates.  The bonsais are all healthy and growing fast.  Will be adding another 400w or 600w soon to get a bigger growing area.

Added some wonderful Phalaenopsis orchids mounted and hanging around and above the bonsais too to make use of the excess light, and all doing well.  Unfortunately, the orchid bug is really strong, with so many great species and hybrids, so the numerous ones that are coming in soon will have to be hung out arrayed in a wall in the balcony in morning sunlight (they have the advantage of not needing pots).

Learned from experience, at least in my setup, that fertilization of indoor plants under lights have to be weak, it's not the same as those outside.  Adapting the orchid growers' practice of "weakly weekly" is a good one.

Brett, nice to hear things are going well may i ask what kind of light meter you have and what readings you got from the sun and your LED?
Also do you know the exact power draw of your LED?

Interesting that you found fertilize less works the best, in my setup its the total opposite! what nutrient's do you use?

This is the light I'm thinking about getting:

http://www.ebay.com/itm/Mars2-400w-LED-Grow-Light-5W-Led-Full-Spectrum-Veg-Flower-Kit-Free-Hanger/181325156235?_trksid=p2050601.c100085.m2372&_trkparms=aid%3D111001%26algo%3DREC.SEED%26ao%3D1%26asc%3D20140211132617%26meid%3D8124452837981419626%26pid%3D100085%26prg%3D20140211132617%26rk%3D2%26rkt%3D4%26sd%3D151186702706%26clkid%3D8124453601445144974&_qi=RTM1562570

Ryan wrote:This is the light I'm thinking about getting:

http://www.ebay.com/itm/Mars2-400w-LED-Grow-Light-5W-Led-Full-Spectrum-Veg-Flower-Kit-Free-Hanger/181325156235?_trksid=p2050601.c100085.m2372&_trkparms=aid%3D111001%26algo%3DREC.SEED%26ao%3D1%26asc%3D20140211132617%26meid%3D8124452837981419626%26pid%3D100085%26prg%3D20140211132617%26rk%3D2%26rkt%3D4%26sd%3D151186702706%26clkid%3D8124453601445144974&_qi=RTM1562570

Sure, US $200 is a good price for a ~190Watt LED, but to be honest there is no way it uses quality LED chips, drivers and a proper heatsink for that price. And a 1 year warranty say it all IMO. That light will most likely not last very long.

Good LED lights are expensive and for a good reason, they are build with only the best components to last you many many years while using as little electricity as possible, so even if the price is high for a good light, it will pay for it self in the long run.

You really get what you pay for when it comes to LEDs.

I disagree. If you do some searching you'll find nothing but good reviews on this light. You don't have to pay over $1,000 to get a good light.

Ryan wrote:I disagree. If you do some searching you'll find nothing but good reviews on this light. You don't have to pay over $1,000 to get a good light.

If reviews are good then i would say go for it, its a nice price for a lot of LED power its not like i am saying all Chinese LEDs are crap, just look at the strong growth Brett has under his light!
All i am saying is that the more expensive lights are most often more efficient and reliably due to better quality components being used.

how big is the area in witch you plan to use the LED?

Dreamcast wrote:

Ryan wrote:I disagree. If you do some searching you'll find nothing but good reviews on this light. You don't have to pay over $1,000 to get a good light.

If reviews are good then i would say go for it, its a nice price for a lot of LED power its not like i am saying all Chinese LEDs are crap, just look at the strong growth Brett has under his light!
All i am saying is that the more expensive lights are most often more efficient and reliably due to better quality components being used.

how big is the area in witch you plan to use the LED?

But it's also a light I cannot get. You all are able to get these lights that are over in Europe and I don't have access to them. I plan on using the light in a mylar tent.

This is the light Brett bought, right?

http://www.ebay.com/itm/300W-LED-Grow-Light-Full-Spectrum-IR-For-Indoor-Grow-Greenhouse-Hydroponic-Plant-/291003115391?pt=US_Hydroponics&hash=item43c123277f

And it's under $120. Yet look how well it's doing for him. Maybe I'll try that one?

Ryan wrote:This is the light Brett bought, right?

http://www.ebay.com/itm/300W-LED-Grow-Light-Full-Spectrum-IR-For-Indoor-Grow-Greenhouse-Hydroponic-Plant-/291003115391?pt=US_Hydroponics&hash=item43c123277f

And it's under $120. Yet look how well it's doing for him. Maybe I'll try that one?

I think that's the one he uses, hopefully Brett can confirm it

A word of advice if you plan to use a growtent, there are many stories online of tents killing plants due to something call "off gassing", i am not sure if this is still a existing problem but worth reading up on witch brands are safe, would be a total disaster if ones trees would die!   

I use tents to, right now i have 4 small ones and will have a CloneBox View up and running the coming days, they are all from a company named HOMEbox and suppose to be 100% off gassing free.

Dreamcast wrote:

A word of advice if you plan to use a growtent, there are many stories online of tents killing plants due to something call "off gassing", i am not sure if this is still a existing problem but worth reading up on witch brands are safe, would be a total disaster if ones trees would die!   

Yup. I haven't had a problem yet though.

Ryan wrote:Yup. I haven't had a problem yet though.

Nice to hear! how big is your tent?

Dreamcast wrote:

Ryan wrote:Yup. I haven't had a problem yet though.

Nice to hear! how big is your tent?

It's a 4x2x4.

Ryan, then we will be using the same size tents.

looking forward to see your setup after installing the LED.

Well I haven't decided if I'm getting that light yet.

Brett, can you confirm that that is the same light you bought?

I do like this light:

http://www.ebay.com/itm/Mars2-700w-LED-Grow-Light-5W-Led-Full-Spectrum-LED-Lighting-Free-Hanger-/181307966442?pt=US_Hydroponics&hash=item2a36cc03ea

Ryan wrote:I do like this light:

http://www.ebay.com/itm/Mars2-700w-LED-Grow-Light-5W-Led-Full-Spectrum-LED-Lighting-Free-Hanger-/181307966442?pt=US_Hydroponics&hash=item2a36cc03ea

Why not 2 of the ~190 watt versions instead, you will get more even light distribution in your tent this way.

Also more light for less money.

Honestly I may just go big or go home and pick this light:

http://www.ebay.com/itm/900W-Mars-2-Led-Grow-Lighting-IR-Indoor-Veg-Flowering-Big-Yield-Led-5-watt-Lamp-/221290850885?pt=US_Hydroponics&hash=item3385f66a45


If I'm going to spend $200 on a tree, I can spend at least double that to let the tree grow well.

Witch ever light/lights you go with please consider this, your tent is 4x2x4 right? if you use say a single 300-400Watt LED light that's around 40cmx40cm in size, it may very well be to much light for the trees to handle at that distance from the LED, its also a big possibility that you will not get proper light coverage in the tent with one small high Watt LED, if you have had more headroom in the tent then it would work better, LED's have a lot of light emitted right under them and not so much to the sides.

So i would still recommend going with 2 lower Watt LED lights to get a good even light distribution in your tent.

This at least what i have experienced while using LEDs, but the lights i have may very well be totally different..

Well if I were to get that kind of light I obviously wouldn't use it in a tent that small. This is still just a Chinese light, so it's probably poorly made. I'm holding off until I can find something well made.

Update from the LED test lab.

First a Clonebox View from HOMEbox now housing 6x SANlight M30, that's 180Watt quality LED light in a 4x2x4 tent with highly reflective inside.
Use to have a 600Watt then a 400Watt MH over around the same surface area before, and after that 2 126Watt CFL 6400K + some added small CFL's here and there, will be interesting to see how well the LEDs do.

6x M30's do i good job of covering the area, but there would be a more even light distribution with 2 more units i think, i see a lot of "hot spots" when i drag my light meter across the area.

Trees in the "fog house" are doing great under LED, i will try to raise the humidity in the grow tent to around 50-60% and hopefully i don't need to bag trees anymore to see good aerial root growth, maybe need even higher humidity than ~50%?

I like these transparent windows on the tent so one can watch the trees without letting humidity out


Then this in the other side of the room.. on the left ApacheTech's AT120W over 3 ficus fusing projects, very intense white light, almost like a giant flashlight with its beam in a perfect square under the light.
On the right Rapidled's ONYX Bloom 250Watt http://www.rapidled.com/bloom-onyx-by-rapid-led/, this as the ApacheTech has a very tight lens angle on the LEDs, will see how well a Chili plant/future Bonchi, a Hibiscus and a YuccaPalm do under it, hopefully a lot of Chili's and many beautiful flowers!



More updates coming soon, like the new and improved Spectrum testing setup in the 4 Q30 tents.

Hi Dreamcast

I find the ApacheTech's AT120W very interesting, but also expensive, if I have to buy it in USA... can a similar lamp be bught in europe?...do you have a good another option you could recomend?

Kind regards Yvonne

Yvonne Graubaek wrote:Hi Dreamcast

I find the ApacheTech's AT120W very interesting, but also expensive, if I have to buy it in USA... can a similar lamp be bught in europe?...do you have a good another option you could recomend?

Kind regards Yvonne

Yvonne, the AT120W is very expensive i know, but IMO its a light that can easily replace a 400-600Watt Metal Halide in light intensity depending on the distance from the trees.
To get this intense light from only 120 1Watt LED's (~170Watt real power draw with fans and drivers) Apache use top bin Nichia LED's and lenses that have a very narrow angle, if i remember correctly the company have patent on these lenses, but don't quote me on that.
The drawback from using such narrow lens angles is light coverage, like i mentioned in a earlier post, its like a giant flashlight.
When it comes to build quality, materials and components being used i can somewhat understand the price, would be surprised if these lights dose not last for a very very long time.
Since its a very heavy light (~7 kilos) one thing to consider is also the shipping costs from USA to EU.

All this being said, i have not used this light for long enough to say its definitely worth the high price, but my experience so far is very positive, one thing i had to do was replace the fans for silent ones, if not it sounded like i had a Jet plane in my living room.

There are very few company's that i know of witch uses 100% white LED spectrum in there lights, and those that do use White top bin LED's from for example Cree, Nichia, Osram and then also quality efficient drivers and huge heat sinks, this is what makes them so good but also expensive.

In USA there are a couple of choices, ApacheTech's AT120W and Rapidled's Onyx Vegg (6400k), i am testing the Onyx Bloom right now, and its also a very impressive light so i can imagine the 6400K version being just as good but for non flowering trees. There are some more company's out of USA, but i can't comment on any of them since i have no experiences with them.

If wanting to buy from EU i can really recommend SANlights M30 that i now use in the grow tent, its the only "white" spectrum light in EU witch i know of, one very positive thing using these small lights is that one unit can be used over each Bonsai (if a bigger tree more may be needed), if greater light intensity is desired more units can be hang closer to each other, the flexibility are really endless with these small lights, they can be hanged horizontal, vertical or on a angle, and all this with hanging accessorizes that comes with each unit, they also sell a simple frame witch allows for even more mounting options, my friends call it the LEGO LED system.   
Since the M30's implement small reflector cups for each LED instead of lenses like the AT120W and Onyx, it has a little better light spread but not as intense light output, this off course also since its only ~30Watt, to solve this one can like i said hang more units closer to each other or just move the light/lights closer to the trees.
they are top quality lights using top bin Osram LED's, huge heatsinks and very good drivers, 100% silent operation from both light and drivers.
The spectrum is a combination of White and red LED's, in photos the light looks very reddish in color, but in person its a very pleasant slightly warm white light.

These 2 pictures from SANlight simply explains the difference in using one big LED compared to more small ones.



All the lights i use work great, its all about getting the light/lights that fit ones setup and trees, i hope this helps a little, Yvonne.

Hi Dreamcast

Many thanks for your answer....the M30 looks like a LED usefull for me....
•continuous light spectrum from 400nm to 760nm....do you have any idea how this should be understood, as 400 is not enough, and 760 is more than needed for white light.

Kind regards Yvonne

Yvonne, the M30 really is a great little light, very powerful for its size.
I like the flexibility and the fact that one can always buy more lights if needed.

Will explain to the best of my knowledge..

400nm is somewhere around ultraviolet light and 760nm is around infrared light, and everything in between is the visible light spectrum, so a continuous light spectrum from 400nm to 760nm means its a full spectrum white light with every nanometer in there that a plant may need.

White lights all have a continuous light spectrum in that range from ~400nm to ~760nm but in different proportions depending on the purpose.
2700Kelvin lights are more rich in the red part of the spectrum (~620nm-660nm+) for flowering/fruiting plants.
6400Kelvin lights have more blue (~400nm-460nm+) for vegetative growth.

Hope this helps.

ahh..thank you   ...I understand the lamps constant send 400nm to 760nm-...not more, not less...am I right?

kind regards Yvonne