question on bonsai height in relationship to scroll's picture height

Hi, getting closer to where I want to be in understanding bonsai display. getting to the stage where I'm dotting I's and crossing T's.
But this bothers me.

in example the Kusamono or tenpai is always based on a stand so it's elevation is lower than the bonsai stand. So where does the picture scene from the scroll come in relationship to the bonsai. I've learned that the taller narrower scroll goes well with taller vertical bonsai and wider art with shorter stockier trees.

so at what height does the art hang in relationship to the tree. Is there a rule of thumb?

Very good question Dick! of great importance to really understand.
One that I am not confident enough to answer in writing on this forum,
Not sure anyone else here ether, maybe one? I too would want to know?
But I would ask Jonathan by PM, not only studied in Japan and has book smarts!
but has lived it, in Japan under Traditional Japanese Art masters, for years of his life.
Easily the most reliable American source I know in Japanese Art cultural practices!,
You can count on right answers, in right Japanese terms with English perfect translations.
Hands down the best! that I know of, got twenty five hundred reasons to show for it... 
stonener
*confident*

i like questions like this - makes you think long and hard before typing !

There are a lot of potential variables - is this a display at home where you have total control of the space, the height, the width etc or is it a bonsai show where the space is in the lap of the gods ? a vast majority of pre set up exhibitions have quite low backdrops, especially if you are bringing a large tree or tall stand so this may compromise the perfect set up

Scroll image must play a part....should it tower above the tree ? ie moon, flying bird...... or be below the tree ie fish, mammal etc I think common sense may be the rule as there really are an infinite number of variations.

hopefully a few people will offer their ideas too

cheers Marcus

Marcus thanks for your response. Common sense does play a role in everything we do, and this is no exception. I would like to have
others who may have some additions to the rules of common sense, to chime in. I have a toko and seki display area in the house because most shows have too many trees in too tight of quarters. hence the display usually is very limited to kusamono. That's not what I'm interested in, but finding true knowledge and understanding of how the japanese do the three styles of display, to be quite the effort to get trustworthy information.

Over the short Time I've been on this board, I've learned to appreciate what your willing to share. I know some don't agree on certain points, and i accept that.

One of the things I like to do is share my 35 years of experience with koi. I love to teach. I tell my students to be like a sponge
and absorb everything from everyone. Those things that make sense to you retain, and those things that don't (maybe at this time anyway) put on the back burner.

So as a student here, I'd like to have the priviledge of being exposed to the widest circle of available knowledge. So with that understanding would you go ahead and share what you feel and know. I need it to help me to grow. I'd appreciate it. thank-you

Nobody has to agree with everything said, both you and I know that....but to called negative by a another person again and again is plain malignant...it has been going on for more than one year..

I can understand that maybe you need to re-make your point , more than share with me your input as personally requested. I think all of us would like to feel our contributions have some worth to someone. And i do with yours and that's why I asked.

This situation reminds me of a TV advice show here in America with "Dr, Phil". in these types of classic confrontations you often hear him ask..."how's that working for you "? the implications of which suggests to change your mindset and move on....

I say this in an honest respect for your feelings, with the hope that you'll ignore what you find as disconcerning here and focus on the
opportunity to help the silent majority. I have nothing against those who disagree with anyone as long as they are respectful and explain why they may think differently. that is so helpful, like a voting pamplet that allows both sides to comment on an issue to be voted upon.

I'm a firm believer in the expression, "what goes around comes around". So i do hope you'll reconsider and share your thoughts. If I've learned anything in my close to 7 decades on this planet, it's not to hang on to hurtful things that affect one's health, but to focus your life on the joys.

Here is an interesting blog with a host of pictures. Worth a look and study http://bonsaial.wordpress.com/the-kazari/

And a second also worth a look. http://www.artofbonsai.org/feature_articles/display101.php

Thanks DOUG!

Hey Dick getting back to your question
Have you ever heard the term "Golden Triangle"?
as in Heaven, Man and Earth, if applied to display,
like in Landscaping and or bonsai will help with placement.
Of course space, items size, story line and audience,
must be factored in so display is seen as in real life... 
stonener
*Perspective*

Thank's Doug for the Kazari link it was perfect!
Pictures are worth a thousand words... 

Interestingly enough, I'm always drawn to the displays where the bonsai comes close to the scroll scene. The nicest one I ever seen was a centered scroll with decending sparrow art. The bonsai, which was bearing fruit was placed directly in front. The eye level
impression was one of the bird heading for it's next meal. No third triangulated item was needed.

The flip side of that is often with suiseki, where the stone is on the toko floor and the height of the scroll art makes no connection
physically with the scroll. leaves me feeling rather blah! As if there was no connection.

So this sense i have of what is proper has me eyeing the table height and the ability to lower the scroll art. Maybe that's the next question I should be asking.using fishing line is one way I have lowered a scroll. Don't see any rule brakers there. so what's the deal with table height?

Dick let me say this!
At third Kazari, I saw a suiseki display,
it was a filler meant to take up an empty space.
Could not tell you anything about the stone,
except that it was on a tall 18" table.
The large scroll was a very detailed sumi,
of two crows in a tree perched near a hawk.
Subject was a familiar memory, having seen exactly that.... 
Maybe bonsai bunker Al has a picture?
I have staged a single large stones on a display table 22 x 12 x 9" tall.
stonener
(so yes)

In reading your reply, I got this idea to create a scene that i see in nature all the time. Crows harrassing owls

I liked it so well that I sent it off to my teacher. with the explaination that the tree should have been in something other than a training pot and the stand should have been the proper width. Atleast so he knew I was learning something. ( pride goeth before a  fall)

He wrote me back in the kindest of words explaining you have duplication in your birds and the owl should not be on a jitta but elevated with a taller stand.



(it did look better on the taller stand.

So now i know why someone who knew what they were doing had the crows and hawk on the same scroll (sigh)

In case anyone is curious the bonsai is a Miss kim.

Yo Dick!... 
It's not how far you fall!..  
But how quickly you get up!...   
Especially when every ones looking!... 
Wife asked me "do you think anyone saw me?"... 
I answered "no everyone!"... 
Third Toko Kazari I bombed real bad!... 
But placed first in next one!... 
With the kindness of all those who saw my efforts!... 
It took a village to raise this idiot... 
stonener
*practice*

OK! I'll bite! what's a Miss kim?

a lilac that has long oval pointed leaves as opposed to a lil pat which is also used as bonsai with round leaves and is lilac.
Both are amazingly fragrant. sorry...I do this occassionally in my koi presentations by taking forgranted people know specific japanese terms surrounding the hobby. So Oft times I'm reminded that i need to be more clear  

No problem bro!,
just asking for the benefit of the silent majority!
there is a multitude out there! who don't risk coming forward,
and will only read and PM, I've gotten quite a few lately... 
Interesting plant! does this lilac need chilling hours to flower?
Is it grafted to do better in our soils, if in pot no problems right.
What size & color are the blooms, leaves look compact, nice scale.
Miss kim must be a common name? imported or local source?
asked by my silent... 
stonener
*wondering*

had advised better asked on other thread,
but here because of picture...

Both varieties of lilac are best for bonsai as opposed to using a normal one. The blooms look like a normal tree with length about 5 inches long. I find they seem to alternate on heavy blooming years, none year after year. They do, like most deciduous, like to experience winter. neither are grafted. readily available locally.