Need some quick help on a Cedar

To Jkd2572........I wouldn't joke about something like this, as a matter of fact, I've been hoping and praying that everyone that chimes in on this is serious and doesn't give me some bad information just to have some sick fun. I joined the "Internet Bonsai Club" hoping to find a group of people that truly cared about Bonsai and helping newcomers (which I am one). And still hope that's what I find here. Jkd2572, I'm not coming down on you in any way at all, I'm just stating what I'm hoping to find here and to let everyone know they can expect the truth from me also. I would appreciate everyone's honesty. And don't think I'm just some stick in the mud (no pun intended) I like to kid and joke around just as much as everyone else. But if I tell you I'm serious,...... I'm Serious.

tbarkley wrote:To Jkd2572........I wouldn't joke about something like this, as a matter of fact, I've been hoping and praying that everyone that chimes in on this is serious and doesn't give me some bad information just to have some sick fun. I joined the "Internet Bonsai Club" hoping to find a group of people that truly cared about Bonsai and helping newcomers (which I am one). And still hope that's what I find here. Jkd2572, I'm not coming down on you in any way at all, I'm just stating what I'm hoping to find here and to let everyone know they can expect the truth from me also. I would appreciate everyone's honesty. And don't think I'm just some stick in the mud (no pun intended) I like to kid and joke around just as much as everyone else. But if I tell you I'm serious,...... I'm Serious.

You've received good advice - listen to what Brian Van Fleet has told you.  Build a wooden crate slightly bigger than your rootball - it should be a tight fit. Plant your tree in the box using a coarse aggregate as a planting medium.  I've always used pumice - I think that's what experienced collectors like Randy Knight and Andy Smith use also.  You can get it here:

http://www.southernstates.com/catalog/search.aspx?searchterm=Dry%20stall
http://www.weetree.com/index.php?l=product_detail&p=875

Also, calling these guys:

http://www.drystall.com/dealers.html

may help you find some in your area.

Wire it tightly to the box. You want absolutely no movement. I used to put screws into the crate to attach the wires.

Move it into the shade and protect it from the wind. Mist often for the first several months - the system I use to use came on hourly, but it's most important in the early morning when the stomata are open.  You can get everything you need here:

http://www.dripworks.com/category/misters

Do it quickly - it would have been best to have had all this prepared before you dug.  Water thoroughly when you get it planted, but protect the soil from getting dripped on by all the misting.  Water again only when the soil begins to dry out a couple of inches beneath the top of the soil level.  Don't be surprised if you don't need to water again for some time.  When the soil starts to dry out more regularly it is a good sign that the root system has begun to recover and supply the water needs of the plant.  When that happens, you can begin to decrease the frequency of misting and expose the tree to more sunshine.

Good luck
Scott

That is the most impressive urban yamadori I've seen! Too bad you had to dig it up in Aug. My fingers are crossed for you and this awesome tree!

I'm serious to. I hope it pulls through. Keep us updated.

By all means listen to Brian Van Fleet and ScottB1.

After the tree is nicely tucked into the growbox, just leave it be. Dn't mess with it or fertilize. Full recovery will take a number of years. Get a knowledgeable person's opinion as to whether to feed next year. Try to join a bonsai club.

I also have some opinions on value based on quite a bit of shopping on the internet, bonsai nurseries and show vendors. I think $30,000 to $50,000 is ridiculous and fully agree with Leatherback's assessment. I don't wish to get into an argument about the value issue with anyone.

Also, I strongly agree with the suggestion of having the tree styled by an expert.

The tree, however, is excellent and I wish you the best of luck. Join a club, they'll flip when you walk in with that tree! I really hope the tree thrives.

Best,

Augustine

Augustine: thanks for the input, I'll do my best with this. I'd love to roll this into a club and see the expressions. I had just been looking at this as I drove by it every day. When I actually stopped to ask about it, and looked closely at it, I just had to slobber all over myself.

If possible, you should contact someone knowledgeable in your area immediately, and pay them to help you get this properly into a box, and set up the correct misting/watering programs. This type of collection is difficult even for very experienced bonsai people, and to try to DIY as a newbie is not something recommended, at least not with something as breathtaking, and obviously valuable as this tree is. Please, please, for the sake of the tree, find a bonsai nursery or bonsai professional to help you with this. Words on a page from a bonsai forum, are not going to cut it here. Even building the correct type of box can be challenging if you don't know what you are doing. This is not meant to be offensive in any way, I just think you need more direct help than this or any forum can give you.
Good luck.

Some clarification here.. For those of us that are here in the northeast USA. This material, if well established and healthy would be up around $15,000 plus. I live here, I worked at a bonsai nursery and frequent them twice a month for the last 11 out of 15 years. Am I saying that if he brings this tree to a bonsai nursery that they are going to hand him 15k-20k. No, they will not want to pay that. First, because whoever gets this tree is probably not going to sell it. It will be in an individuals or the nurseries private collection. So they will not make money on it. Also, there are small junipers and pines, with no way near this much character that are not even 1/4 of the size of this tree and are going for like $1200 - $2000. Azaleas 1/3 this size for $3000- $4000. This tree is much larger and probably is 100 years older. A nursery might want give him 9k and then want to do like 3-4 k worth of store credit, if that. So in regards to this material in this part of the country, if it was in a bonsai nursery, it would most likely be up near 20K. Also, if the tree is styled by a well know artist such as Ryan Neil, Suthin Sukosolvisit or Michael Hagedorn and then the tree becomes a masterpiece down the road, there is not doubt, if for sale in a nursery, it would be around 30k. The tree, the work put in and the name of the artist would dictate such a price. Am I saying they will get this price, probably not, but you can believe that it would be for sale around these figures.

Before we all jump the gun on any assessments. We should wait and see if it lives. Then when a skilled artist works on it, a more accurate assessment can be made. However, if everything goes well. These prices are very likely.

Rob

The vast number of quick and detailed responses that have posted since this whammer was first presented speaks volumes about the potential quality of this material. Congrats on the find and as everyone else has said, best of luck putting your new plant on the path to survival... and eventually something great.

I'm with Rob on his valuation. If Joe Schmo Hoo collected this tree, stabilized it and did a bit of work on it (not to the point of a show quality masterpiece) and listed it for sale, I'm certain it would fetch a fair price... Likely in the thousands of dollar range. If Bonsai Master Bob harvested this behemoth, stabilized it and did a bit of work on it, I'm certain it would fetch significantly more... Likely in the tens of thousands of dollars range. As with most others, I've seen plenty of junipers whose potential pale in comparison to this tree, with asking prices listed at several thousands of dollars. The value is simply what someone is willing to pay. If this tree survives, regains it's strength and begins vigourous growth, gets worked on by some notable artist(s) and becomes what we all hope it is capable of, there's no reason why someone out there wouldn't pay top dollar to acquire it... And also no reason why you yourself can't eventually turn it into a showstopper.

Best of luck to you on your new adventure. Going to be a long winter. May want to acquire a bunch of nursery stock to work on while you play the waiting game. Sounds like you're in for a crash course!

Curious, what causes that 'crushed' effect on the trunk? Anyone might know?

Possibly the spirit of John yoshi naka.  

I think your post is the best advice Tony has received so far. I was wondering when someone would get around to suggesting he get the best professional help in person to preserve this wonderful material. At work we like to say hope and good luck is not a plan. Might cost more than the original $20 but it sure seems worth it.

Fore wrote:Curious, what causes that 'crushed' effect on the trunk?  Anyone might know?

Let's see...growing for long time on the end of a driveway at the edge of a rural(?) highway in North Carolina...what could possibly have happenned to it:twisted: ? I bet this juniper had probably been backed over by a pick up truck at least once or twice by the time my dad was born...in 1941;) .

Dave Murphy wrote:

Fore wrote:Curious, what causes that 'crushed' effect on the trunk?  Anyone might know?

Let's see...growing for long time on the end of a driveway at the edge of a rural(?) highway in North Carolina...what could possibly have happenned to it:twisted: ?  I bet this juniper had probably been backed over by a pick up truck at least once or twice by the time my dad was born...in 1941;) .

That sure would've done that, cool to think about it's long history. Thanks Dave.

I really appreciate everyone's willingness to offer advice on this. I will do what I can about getting help for this tree. I want it to live just as much or more than everyone's saying they want it to survive. It's doing good so far, I have in a good place. I really will try to get some help on this tree.
Thanks again everybody!

Hoo wrote:If Joe Schmo Hoo collected this tree, stabilized it and did a bit of work on it (not to the point of a show quality masterpiece) and listed it for sale, I'm certain it would fetch a fair price... Likely in the thousands of dollar range.  If Bonsai Master Bob harvested this behemoth, stabilized it and did a bit of work on it, I'm certain it would fetch significantly more... Likely in the tens of thousands of dollars range.  

Now that is a whole different story right? The tree has a certain "day value". As it is right now, it is not worth 10, 20, 30 thousand dollar. But in a few years time, after establishing in the pot AND having someone with a keen eye work on it a little, the price goes up. But we are talking a 3-5 year plan before that sort of prices may be within reach. And when styled to near-presentation level, naturally, by a top artist, nothing stops the price from being fenominal. But we were tyalking about the plant now. Not the plant in 5 years (Because I have some great material myself, which I will be styling this winter. Surte it could go on to become a national show level tree in the right hands. First person offering me 5K can have it, as I only paid 400 for it.

The most reasonable argument for pricing bonsai I have come across from a big nursery owner. Naturally, this is taking the perspective odf making money on the tree, and not the emotion of a bonsai-lover who just has to have this piece! Do not aquire a collected tree, established in pot culture, if the tree does not have the potential of being woth 10 times the purchase value, after styling to perfection. This was based on care required, risk involved & time/money investment to get a pro to style the tree. So if the styled tree could potentially bring in 30K, the realistic price now would be around 1-2K for people wanting to take a risk. And possibly 3-5K once established in a pot and clearly o the road to recovery.

this is a good thread - the prices bouncing around are interesting but do puzzle me a little but maybe it is the current value in the USA of all nice material .

the juniper is very large and very twisted / compacted which gives it a starting point value based on in effect being newly collected with unsure survival of all or some of it - no-one knows if roots at the base of key live veins are intact or not at this point in time - i would say $1000 is a high price for a big cutting that may become a tanuki. next stage is 3-5 years pot/box establishment unstyled but making strong growth shoots - now it is potentially a bonsai and worth 5-7 times more.
personally for me the price increases would virtually stop there as the owner can go to a pro workshop and over 3 sessions of $400 ish the tree would be well on its way to being a future bonsai

for me the reason great material can command very high prices comes from the bit that cant be faked or man made - visible age and weathering, amazing deadwood with cork like texture from centuries of winter weather and summer baking, wind sculpted flutes in the jin etc - a few years skilled wood carving can't create true yamadori deadwood (no matter how good the carver is it always looks new, age cracks are all different widths and depths) and this tree will never have that natural aging - it looks very young and healthy (fingers crossed ) due to growing in its location - the deadwood creation will be brand new and will look new for a very long time so for me the value would not rise into the 10's of 1000's $ within our lifetimes.

but as i said at the start maybe just big nice material gets high prices in America rather than visibly ancient material ?

there are a few kimura truely ancient junipers in the states i believe ? - at a guess $100k would be the value of a tree like this so there is a bench mark to scale juniper prices on

good luck Marcus

Folks,

a little reality.

Bonsai is a luxury, and until you find someone to pay for what you are selling at the price you want [ no haggling ] it is worth absolutely ------- nothing.

This is the modern problem with hobbies. You put out a great deal of energy, sweat and $$$$$.
BUT that does not mean you will get back that ever decreasing resource [ $$$ ]

Best advice, get someone professional say - Owen Reich - and have him help you to nurture it and style it. Say 10 years later, show it. Make it so beautiful the viewer will desire it, want it and then try to sell at your price.

I hope it thrives and makes all who look at it think. Isn't that the highest aspect of Bonsai - contemplation. Or least they go away with a smile in the heart.
Best of growing to you,
Khaimraj

I see this sense of monetary roulette also used in my other hobby-Koi. All it does frankly is encourage theives.

At a show recently, a young man approached me as to what the cost of a diplayed tree might be. I talked about what it took to make a tree, investment of time and self, and ended up by saying that the value could be best supplied by the owner who had invested self in it. No dollar amount was used and deliberately steered away from. A simple thing like just a name, can easily provide theives with opportunity to easily find an address.

just sayin'

Dick, I understand your point. However, I don't think monetary speculation will lead to the theft of many trees posted to the forum who have had the poor luck of being assigned some value. Fences, lights, dogs, firearms, fists of fury all exist.

Your advice and points are noted and I'm sure are intended to make people to step back and think before they type or post pictures, names, etc.... But the most common koi thieves are of the feathered type and the most common tree thieves are named neglect, ignorance and nature.

I worked at the same nursery as Rob C and I would say that if this tree was rooted well and in a training pot, it would easily be listed in the 5-10k range. There are trees much less interesting than this in the 5k range so I don't think it is a stretch. Prices are a bit expensive here, especially since the material is not as good as you would hope. Once it has started training that 10k number makes even more sense. It's just a very unique piece of material.

Granted, what it is listed at and what it sells at are two totally different things. I have a feeling that if this was in a bonsai nursery the owner wouldn't mind it sitting on the self for a few years waiting for the right buys though.

I guess the price curiosity is human nature. It reminds me of traveling in Guatemala 20 yrs ago with a cheap classical guitar on buses in rural areas. I got asked 50 times "Cuanto Cuesta?" No pleasantries.... just straight to asking how much is that worth?
Either way talking about a price is meaningless when you're talking about a unique item in a very small almost illiquid market.
A tree like this if it were in great shape would be worth exactly what was paid for it after it sold. And even knowing that wouldn't predict what another unique tree would be worth in the future.
Ian
p.s. What a find! Makes me start looking closer at all the yards I pass while going to work!

Yip, who cares about the price value. The thing that's important with a tree like this is the bonsai value. If I found a tree like this, I would not sell it. It's just potentially too special, and any lover of bonsai that is not making a living from it would be a fool to sell material of this caliber unless there was a VERY good reason to do so. I look forward to seeing more of this tree's structure in future, and fingers crossed that it makes the transplant.

Again, I want to thank everyone for the comments and advice! I've also been in contact with the Triangle Bonsai Society (in Raleigh, NC). As I've said before, I'm a newbi and this has been a great ride so far. I will definately keep everyone posted on the progress (here's hoping and praying its all good). I'm not looking to sell it either (right now), but if someone came up and offered me $10,000.......I'd have to think about that (not much though).

Thanks again,

To Be Continued........

It looks like round up ready beans in your profile pic. Just saying I hope there isn't any overspray.