Hedge method by Walter pall.

jun wrote:This is the thread with the most number of words put in every post made. IMHO,Sometimes it will confuse the readers and it would be hard to follow if questions and answers would not be kept simple. just my opinion.


Anyhow friends, Like sentences and Paragraphs, I grow bonsai as simple as possible, keep the techniques that are only needed and discard the ones that is too technical (with too much science involved). Some if not most of Walter's technique are unique to his own and discovered by him through long decades of practice, Most of them are practical application rather than "technical", and it works perfectly well for his natural style. but if you are into the Japanese style, or even Chinese style it won't work. So, one should find the style that he/she really likes and apply the techniques that is suitable for that particular style.


...And please , though bonsai involved science, don't act in the garden like a nerd scientists. Just be a happy "gardener" with an aim.


regards,
jun

Very right June...I had to go over board, since I was told that I am not understood.
I was looking at the last picture of the thread I posted above, of the maple....then I looked at the branch development with the HM and saw a big difference. The Japanese tree does not look to me at all unnatural...but the branch structure is simple perfection. BTW, I dont like overstyled trees...the stairs to heaven...and unnaturally looking trees, but I prefer the branch structure to be very refined, just like that last maple.
For sure I must be looking like a nerd scientist...i am one for sure...in total confusion, and trying to understand things better.

newzealandteatree wrote:

Neli wrote:

newzealandteatree wrote:I develop my bonsai in 3 stages:

Stage 1 - grow the trunk.
Stage 2 - grow the branches especially the primary branches.
Stage 3 - grow the ramifications by focusing on the secondary, tertiary branches and twigs.

Hope this helps to clear things up.

Cheers,

CJ

Thanks! But that I know already...but it raises another question...is the HM equally good for all this three stages of development?

Just like most things in life, there are many ways to develop beautiful bonsai. The most important is not the method but the outcome. Just like other areas of expertise, there are many who claimed to be masters but very few are true masters. The way to spot the genuine master from the sea of claimants is from his products. From my experience, the HM is more successful in outcome achievement in the early stages of the development of the bonsai.

Cheers,

CJ

If i start imagining things again...I think at that stage more growth is needed and faster development. Lots of leaves might assist with that, but you will still not have much length since there will be branches with long internodes that will need to be drastically shortened. And I am not talking here about maples...but other trees that can benefit from not being cut too short. For primary branches...thickening is important...so probably sacrifice branches will be in order there, and growing it till it is thickened enough. For me personally will be hard to grow and thicken a branch for a year...in my climate things grow just too fast, and ones some branches are thickened and not wired on time...it becomes impossible to wire at a later stage. They can break.
I guess you are referring to what jun said...not too much delicate branching is achieved at the end ...So it must be for the natural style.???

I am going to copy this thread here in order to answer it:
Re: Refurbishing a Japanese Maple - the "Hedge Cutting Method"
cbobgo Today at 7:09 am

Brent uses this same technique at his nursery, and it does work well.
Yes I believe he might, since he is a commercial grower...I am not saying it does not work well I am asking why not to chop a branch to 1-2 internodes ones it has grown very long.

Neli, I think I might be able to clarify for you the difference between this method and the traditional method you are using.

With this hedge cutting type of technique we are not removing as much foliage at each cutting back. We are just heading it back a little, instead of cutting all the way back to the first or second node. This keeps the tree stronger through the growing season. Then, at the last cut back, we do the more drastic cut to the first or second node (usually the first).

OK! If like a nerd i presume that if I cut 2 branches...one very short and one at the middle, and leave them to grow for 3 month... the new growth might be the same length ( not too sure about that. Just suspecting) The only difference will be the inner part of the branches...the one inside the canopy.
Now looking at the way it is cut like a topiary, how much light will go inside, in order for those leaves inside the canopy, to produce food and be beneficial? If you saw the link I posted above...a die back of buds and branches can occur if light does not reach inside. After the second cut...i think less light penetrates inside. So does that part do the tree much good?

So at the end of the season the result is almost the same - the branches are cut all the way back. BUT here is the difference. Since the tree is not cut back as drastically each time it will have put on more wood - more thickness during the growing season. So then LENGTH of the branch is the same with both techniques, but the THICKNESS of the branches (and thus the trunk) is more with the hedge technique.

It is basically a way to keep your tree more vigorous.

Does that clear things up any?

- bob[b]
The principle more leaves = more growth...is very valid here. But if I cut to 1-2 short internodes, I have a feeling, that more light will go inside...and the difference will not be that much after the first cut....since after the first cut everything is cut to 2 buds like a topiary...and the growth in both cases will be the same, if we ignore the shaded part of the branches, inside the canopy, after the first cut.
Now some time i would like to form more or less horizontal pads...with the tertiary branches growing upwards almost, and those branches are so short that they can not be wired. will they not grow radially towards the light ??? How can that be done with this method???? I think it is more suitable for broomish type trees.
The reason I wanted to cut to 1-2 internodes is to have more result at the end of the year. I can still trim the branch during the fine tune to one fork if that is needed and remove the rest of the forks, I can still leave one branch as a sacrifice on the side to thicken even more that primary branch...but the end of the season I will have not only 1 internode left, or nothing like it happens with maples...when the first internodes is very long, and it has to be cut off completely.
Again...will I not be able to address the apical dominance better if I selectively cut, in order to channel more growth to the lower areas?

Dear Neli,
I used "scientist nerd " to give emphasis on the point that some people are taking too serious the hobby. And in the process lost the fun of enjoying bonsai and gardening. Experience and knowing each tree would be the best way to learn. If posting long question is your style, just go ahead with it. But again in a forum, the shorter and more direct the question is the better it will be understood. It's just a suggestion and observation.

...i am sure you are following Mr. Pall's work, observe his advice on some issues, it is more practical and easy to understand than most books on bonsai.

Regards,
Jun

Neli,

there is a balance between a plant grown slowly in nature, a plant growing at a normal speed and a plant grown quickly on fertilisers.

On our side, Cedrula, if grown on the south of the island is a semi-hardwood, easy to work and planes well. In the northern range at 250 cms of annual rain, is a softwood, that cottons when planed and for a species normally inedible to termites, becomes a tasty meal.

Since I keep africanised bees, my hive boxes have to be of a durable wood. The guy who sold me the northern range wood knew it was inferior, but the tree trunks were huge and he made good $$ off of me. Down went 15 hives with termites.

So now I wonder what happens to the internals of trees or shrubs when one is trying this or that trying to get size of trunk rapidly, or other.

I have tried to always work with nature. Branches extend, and growth is kept at an even rate, wounds are healed and I only defoliate once a year if needed, using sunlight, and wind, to get smaller leaves.
It usually takes a month of a weak fetiliser to build the reserves to defoliate and the more buds that form, the better the situation. The branchlets are more numerous and finer.

Now I head off into my world, with a cup of white tea [ iced ] as I don't really drink hot anything, or with sugar added.
Got to keep the weight around the tummy down - chuckle.
Laters.
Khaimraj

Neli wrote:

newzealandteatree wrote:

Neli wrote:

newzealandteatree wrote:I develop my bonsai in 3 stages:

Stage 1 - grow the trunk.
Stage 2 - grow the branches especially the primary branches.
Stage 3 - grow the ramifications by focusing on the secondary, tertiary branches and twigs.

Hope this helps to clear things up.

Cheers,

CJ

Thanks! But that I know already...but it raises another question...is the HM equally good for all this three stages of development?

Just like most things in life, there are many ways to develop beautiful bonsai. The most important is not the method but the outcome. Just like other areas of expertise, there are many who claimed to be masters but very few are true masters. The way to spot the genuine master from the sea of claimants is from his products. From my experience, the HM is more successful in outcome achievement in the early stages of the development of the bonsai.

Cheers,

CJ

If i start imagining things again...I think at that stage more growth is needed and faster development. Lots of leaves might assist with that, but you will still not have much length since there will be branches with long internodes that will need to be drastically shortened. And I am not talking here about maples...but other trees that can benefit from not being cut too short. For primary branches...thickening is important...so probably sacrifice branches will be in order there, and growing it till it is thickened enough. For me personally will be hard to grow and thicken a branch for a year...in my climate things grow just too fast, and ones some branches are thickened and not wired on time...it becomes impossible to wire at a later stage. They can break.
I guess you are referring to what jun said...not too much delicate branching is achieved at the end ...So it must be for the natural style.???

1. In stage one, my focus is on thickening up the trunk. Long or short internode does not bother me in my trunk and primary branches development.
2. In my climate things grow very fast too. This is not a problem if u focus on the tree. It is when u expect the tree to grow according to your plan on their own that it becomes a problem.
3. I develop classical Japanese style as well as natural style trees in the same way. In the ramification and refinement stage, going into the tree for the detail works is necessary to bring the tree to the next level for both classical Japanese and natural trees. Of course roots refinement is also another aspect one has to look into to bring the tree to the next level.

Cheers,

CJ

jun wrote:Dear Neli,
I used "scientist nerd " to give emphasis on the point that some people are taking too serious the hobby. And in the process lost the fun of enjoying bonsai and gardening. Experience and knowing each tree would be the best way to learn. If posting long question is your style, just go ahead with it. But again in a forum, the shorter and more direct the question is the better it will be understood. It's just a suggestion and observation.

...i am sure you are following Mr. Pall's work, observe his advice on some issues, it is more practical and easy to understand than most books on bonsai.

Regards,
Jun

Darling, I am a nerd! 100% scientist nerd...(former university lecturer) and I take this hobby +plus everything else) Very seriously... That is how I am with everything else.
But I am having fun...so much fun, even when I am overly serious with it...He he he! (Shhhh! dont tell any one: I am scared not to mess up)
I agree with you on the question part too.!

Khaimraj Seepersad wrote:Neli,

there is a balance between a plant grown slowly in nature, a plant growing at a normal speed and a plant grown quickly on fertilisers.

On our side, Cedrula, if grown on the south of the island is a semi-hardwood, easy to work and planes well. In the northern range at 250 cms of annual rain, is a softwood, that cottons when planed and for a species normally inedible to termites, becomes a tasty meal.

Since I keep africanised bees, my hive boxes have to be of a durable wood. The guy who sold me the northern range wood knew it was inferior, but the tree trunks were huge and he made good $$ off of me. Down went 15 hives with termites.

So now I wonder what happens to the internals of trees or shrubs when one is trying this or that trying to get size of trunk rapidly, or other.

I have tried to always work with nature. Branches extend, and growth is kept at an even rate, wounds are healed and I only defoliate once a year if needed, using sunlight, and wind, to get smaller leaves.
It usually takes a month of a weak fetiliser to build the reserves to defoliate and the more buds that form, the better the situation. The branchlets are more numerous and finer.

Now I head off into my world, with a cup of white tea [ iced ] as I don't really drink hot anything, or with sugar added.
Got to keep the weight around the tummy down - chuckle.
Laters.
Khaimraj

Very interesting...Khaimraj,
I have not started wondering about that yet...(Thanks god!) (I am confused enough already!) But good to know what techniques you use, for I might use it one day.. Thanks! Going to sleep now...Did not sleep last night.

newzealandteatree wrote:

Neli wrote:

newzealandteatree wrote:

Neli wrote:

newzealandteatree wrote:I develop my bonsai in 3 stages:

Stage 1 - grow the trunk.
Stage 2 - grow the branches especially the primary branches.
Stage 3 - grow the ramifications by focusing on the secondary, tertiary branches and twigs.

Hope this helps to clear things up.

Cheers,

CJ

Thanks! But that I know already...but it raises another question...is the HM equally good for all this three stages of development?

Just like most things in life, there are many ways to develop beautiful bonsai. The most important is not the method but the outcome. Just like other areas of expertise, there are many who claimed to be masters but very few are true masters. The way to spot the genuine master from the sea of claimants is from his products. From my experience, the HM is more successful in outcome achievement in the early stages of the development of the bonsai.

Cheers,

CJ

If i start imagining things again...I think at that stage more growth is needed and faster development. Lots of leaves might assist with that, but you will still not have much length since there will be branches with long internodes that will need to be drastically shortened. And I am not talking here about maples...but other trees that can benefit from not being cut too short. For primary branches...thickening is important...so probably sacrifice branches will be in order there, and growing it till it is thickened enough. For me personally will be hard to grow and thicken a branch for a year...in my climate things grow just too fast, and ones some branches are thickened and not wired on time...it becomes impossible to wire at a later stage. They can break.
I guess you are referring to what jun said...not too much delicate branching is achieved at the end ...So it must be for the natural style.???

1. In stage one, my focus is on thickening up the trunk. Long or short internode does not bother me in my trunk and primary branches development.

I have a friend that is very bothered about that...so we are going to try a method that will shorten the internodes in the leader...without slowing growth. Just starting though.h)
2. In my climate things grow very fast too. This is not a problem if u focus on the tree. It is when u expect the tree to grow according to your plan on their own that it becomes a problem.

Could not have said it better
3. I develop classical Japanese style as well as natural style trees in the same way. In the ramification and refinement stage, going into the tree for the detail works is necessary to bring the tree to the next level for both classical Japanese and natural trees. Of course roots refinement is also another aspect one has to look into to bring the tree to the next level.

Cheers,

CJ

CJ,
thank You!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Please tell me how you proceed and what method do you use...That will be of great help to me. I have seen just too many methods, my head is spinning.

Mr. Pall told you everything you need to know and communicated clearly. Also, everyone else gave sound advice.

You can use any of the methods cited in this thread (as long as the tree is healthy). Trim the tree if you want, one leaf at a time or like a hedge. Any method of trimming will result in shorter internodes and increased ramification. Go ahead and trim one branchlet at a time since you enjoy detail work, absolutely no problem.

Leaf size reduction technique is different. It involves removing leaves and leaving the petioles.

It's up to you, do what makes you and your trees happy.

Best,

Augustine
central MD - 7a

Neli wrote:

newzealandteatree wrote:

Neli wrote:

newzealandteatree wrote:

Neli wrote:

newzealandteatree wrote:I develop my bonsai in 3 stages:

Stage 1 - grow the trunk.
Stage 2 - grow the branches especially the primary branches.
Stage 3 - grow the ramifications by focusing on the secondary, tertiary branches and twigs.

Hope this helps to clear things up.

Cheers,

CJ

Thanks! But that I know already...but it raises another question...is the HM equally good for all this three stages of development?

Just like most things in life, there are many ways to develop beautiful bonsai. The most important is not the method but the outcome. Just like other areas of expertise, there are many who claimed to be masters but very few are true masters. The way to spot the genuine master from the sea of claimants is from his products. From my experience, the HM is more successful in outcome achievement in the early stages of the development of the bonsai.

Cheers,

CJ

If i start imagining things again...I think at that stage more growth is needed and faster development. Lots of leaves might assist with that, but you will still not have much length since there will be branches with long internodes that will need to be drastically shortened. And I am not talking here about maples...but other trees that can benefit from not being cut too short. For primary branches...thickening is important...so probably sacrifice branches will be in order there, and growing it till it is thickened enough. For me personally will be hard to grow and thicken a branch for a year...in my climate things grow just too fast, and ones some branches are thickened and not wired on time...it becomes impossible to wire at a later stage. They can break.
I guess you are referring to what jun said...not too much delicate branching is achieved at the end ...So it must be for the natural style.???

1. In stage one, my focus is on thickening up the trunk. Long or short internode does not bother me in my trunk and primary branches development.

I have a friend that is very bothered about that...so we are going to try a method that will shorten the internodes in the leader...without slowing growth. Just starting though.h)
2. In my climate things grow very fast too. This is not a problem if u focus on the tree. It is when u expect the tree to grow according to your plan on their own that it becomes a problem.

Could not have said it better
3. I develop classical Japanese style as well as natural style trees in the same way. In the ramification and refinement stage, going into the tree for the detail works is necessary to bring the tree to the next level for both classical Japanese and natural trees. Of course roots refinement is also another aspect one has to look into to bring the tree to the next level.

Cheers,

CJ

CJ,
thank You!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Please tell me how you proceed and what method do you use...That will be of great help to me. I have seen just too many methods, my head is spinning.

I rather focus on the objective than on the method as outline in my 3 stages. If u already have some knowledge and practical experiences with gardening, u already have a head start. Chose whichever method u think best suits your environment and your personal preferences. Different specie also respond differently. So one has to be flexible and learn from the tree.

Cheers,

CJ

Thanks CJ,
Quote:
I rather focus on the objective than on the method as outline in my 3 stages
That is what I was thinking too...use different methods for the different stages. Now I need to figure out for which stage to use the HM...
I am going to try it and I shall post here...Already prepared some material, so I can compare how it work different ways.

Augustine, Thanks!
Good advise...and I got some fantastic advise by PM...so I am set to go.
Thank You all!

I hate to try and clarify Walter but as I understand him:

If a bonsai is in training, not to the point of mature and twiggy, the method of thickening the trunk and branches is NOT to continually pinch shoots as they appear in spring.

Rather let them grow to thicken the trunk and branches until the leaves start to harden, 6-10 nodes then use the hedge cutter method and take the tree down to one internode. ? That

That pruning makes more buds and better thickness and ramifications can be produced.

If hedge cutting how do you get all branches down to one internode? It isn't that accurate.

If hedge cutting how do you get all branches down to one internode? It isn't that accurate.

It's relatively accurate. I did it with a 3 ft clump of Japanese maple and most were cut back to the 1st or 2nd internodes, it's not that hard to do.

Key is that the trimming over summer does not need to be accurate. He lets things grow, and trims back in summer to induce buds in the canopy & get denser shoots. In winter however the does clean out the jungle of shoots and leaves only the ones he wants.