Hedge method by Walter pall.

BigDave wrote:... ...Why don't you do that for a few years... see how it goes.

Or perhaps, grow some of your trees with the method Mr. W. Pall is using and the rest with the "conventional" method. Then you can make your comparison between the two groups. Nothing better than experience.

Khaimraj Seepersad wrote:Neli,

is this what you are looking for ?

Presently I have the tree set for lowest branch thickening and slowing the other branches down.

Apologies for the other post.
Khaimraj

In short though you are not telling me much...what I imagine you are telling me is that you control the apical dominance by keeping the top branches short, so that the lower branches can grow. You are also growing them in order to thicken them before cutting them short.
Is your trunk not too thin??? Just asking. I am scared to start tress like that...I try to put them in the ground this days...thicken the trunk and then develop branches...
Now I want to know, will your trunks thicken like this and how long it will take...so i can do it too for I am becoming impatient...

Neli,

most of this would be cleared up if you just got two shrubs [ because they resprout everywhere ] of the same type and tested your ideas over a period of time.

If I grow an extension for thickening, say the lowest branch, and I would have already set the root system to the eagle's claw [ radial ], experience will also show how much to grow the [ say ] other six branches at the same time.

You would find the folk who grow from seed and cuttings, probably have more experience with taper and branching.

Folk who collect trees, we tease by saying that they put on green hats [ foliage .] They would have much more experience with root rejuvination and tending to an ill or weakened tree.

Perhaps you should have asked Mr.Pall to show you his trees grown from scratch, seeds or cuttings. Then ask your questions.
I have always admired his yammadori, from his first book.

Don't just sit and theorise and use imagination [ the brain reshuffling what it has already seen ].
Keep testing ideas on fast growing trees or shrubs or as I do weeds as well.
Later.
Khaimraj

Neli wrote:... ...for I am becoming impatient...

Warning, Neli! Khaimraj stands at the very opposite side!

BigDave wrote:

Neli wrote:
I dont have 4000 or even 100 bonsai...and I enjoy trimming my bonsai...why not trim each brunch after allowing it to grow the same length like with the hedge method, carefully after the short (lets say 2 ), internodes, and then grow it in the same manner, and repeat with careful cutting. I am not in a hurry, and I like it.

Seems you answered the question in post 1.

Why don't you do that for a few years... see how it goes.

good growing,
big D

I did not understand You Dave...Sorry. How did I answer my question??? My question was What is wrong with growing the branches and then cutting them to two internodes as opposed to near the edge of the canopy.

my nellie wrote:

Neli wrote:... ...I am simply saying grow the branch as long as with the HM to improve the health of the tree and grow the nebari and trunk, but then cut it to 1-2 internodes carefully, as opposed to near the edge of the canopy... ...

This is what I can think of : More green leaves on the branch, more photosynthesis, more energy, more vigor, more roots, better health.

Yes, this part in both methods is the same...grow a long branch and then cut it...now the difference is where to cut it.

newzealandteatree wrote:I develop my bonsai in 3 stages:

Stage 1 - grow the trunk.
Stage 2 - grow the branches especially the primary branches.
Stage 3 - grow the ramifications by focusing on the secondary, tertiary branches and twigs.

Hope this helps to clear things up.

Cheers,

CJ

Thanks! But that I know already...but it raises another question...is the HM equally good for all this three stages of development?

my nellie wrote:

BigDave wrote:... ...Why don't you do that for a few years... see how it goes.

Or perhaps, grow some of your trees with the method Mr. W. Pall is using and the rest with the "conventional" method. Then you can make your comparison between the two groups. Nothing better than experience.

Thanks,
I plan to do just that and post it here. Unless I get a better explanation, as why I should do one and not the other of the methods.
I have started already one experiment...on growing trunk in three different ways...using the same size saplings...I want to see the difference. I will post it when I am done, but already I have some very good results with one of the methods.

my nellie wrote:

Neli wrote:... ...for I am becoming impatient...

Warning, Neli! Khaimraj stands at the very opposite side!

I know...he believes in starting from scratch....He likes his seeds. I dont post much but follow everything.

Response to -

In short though you are not telling me much...what I imagine you are telling me is that you control the apical dominance by keeping the top branches short, so that the lower branches can grow. You are also growing them in order to thicken them before cutting them short.
Is your trunk not too thin??? Just asking. I am scared to start tress like that...I try to put them in the ground this days...thicken the trunk and then develop branches...
Now I want to know, will your trunks thicken like this and how long it will take...so i can do it too for I am becoming impatient...

Response begins,

You need to always take into account the tree/shrub in nature.
This is a guava type [ psidium ] , trunks in old /mature shrubs are less than 30 cm, and roots are only seen by soil erosion. Deeply rooted and able to withstand severe drought.

Don't get into the habit of just thickening, observe the tree type, and then decide what you want for your design.

If I want a thick trunk fast, ground growing with the tree in a colander [ for easy removal and least amount of root disturbance ] and if need be, on a clay tile in the colander. Colanders are round or flat bottomed, you decide which one you need.
The clay tile can be drilled if you wish to tie a root down or stabilise the tree or other.

The idea you have in mind decides the design, and folk admire your design.

This shrub, also resprouts anywhere, so I can cut off the top if need be and restart the top.

You also have to remember how young I was when I started this hobby, 17 or 18, [ 51 this year ] and now time has no meaning. So I can afford to just let things age.
I already have about 15 trees that show the trunk, the age and the shapes, nothing to prove anymore [ though I use my paintings to show my abilities and bonsai is just a hobby.]
So I can take my time and enjoy seedlings as they grow into mature trees.
Best to you.
Khaimraj

* Seeds and cuttings, becoming mature trees, has a weird effect on how you view the passing of time. I recommend the trying.

Khaimraj Seepersad wrote:Neli,

most of this would be cleared up if you just got two shrubs [ because they resprout everywhere ] of the same type and tested your ideas over a period of time.

If I grow an extension for thickening, say the lowest branch, and I would have already set the root system to the eagle's claw [ radial ], experience will also show how much to grow the [ say ] other six branches at the same time.

You would find the folk who grow from seed and cuttings, probably have more experience with taper and branching.

Folk who collect trees, we tease by saying that they put on green hats [ foliage .] They would have much more experience with root rejuvination and tending to an ill or weakened tree.

Perhaps you should have asked Mr.Pall to show you his trees grown from scratch, seeds or cuttings. Then ask your questions.
I have always admired his yammadori, from his first book.

Don't just sit and theorise and use imagination [ the brain reshuffling what it has already seen ].
Keep testing ideas on fast growing trees or shrubs or as I do weeds as well.
Later.
Khaimraj

I have started....some seeds...and love the fun part of it...but prefer to put on green hat too.
I dont thing Walter will bother with seeds...Just imagine that...he likes nice expensive yamadori so no point in asking him that. But darling I wish yo new how many experimental techniques I am trying to adapt and develop...just that I will post them when I have results...But you can see them on my Face book page. There is an album experiments.

My stages of growing, when I am being good.

[1] Root placement
[2] Trunk/branch work - normally just 6 branches
[3] Branchlets

Hey Alexandra, I just started up some tamarinds from seed using my modified from how to grow Japanese black pines technique as seen in Bonsai Today.

In about 3 years, I may have some interesting Mame' or Shohin tamarinds to exhibit.

And I just grew my first Texas Ebony from home grown seed.
Hee hee. [ plus some miniature pomegranates ]

Later
Khaimraj

Khaimraj Seepersad wrote:Response to -

In short though you are not telling me much...what I imagine you are telling me is that you control the apical dominance by keeping the top branches short, so that the lower branches can grow. You are also growing them in order to thicken them before cutting them short.
Is your trunk not too thin??? Just asking. I am scared to start tress like that...I try to put them in the ground this days...thicken the trunk and then develop branches...
Now I want to know, will your trunks thicken like this and how long it will take...so i can do it too for I am becoming impatient...

Response begins,

You need to always take into account the tree/shrub in nature.
This is a guava type [ psidium ] , trunks in old /mature shrubs are less than 30 cm, and roots are only seen by soil erosion. Deeply rooted and able to withstand severe drought.

Don't get into the habit of just thickening, observe the tree type, and then decide what you want for your design.
I was always told put it in the ground... so i did put everything in the ground without asking any more what I should do....but managed to buy and dig from my garden some with thick trunks. Off bonsai competition 4 entries...he he he! Practice makes perfect!

If I want a thick trunk fast, ground growing with the tree in a colander [ for easy removal and least amount of root disturbance ] and if need be, on a clay tile in the colander. Colanders are round or flat bottomed, you decide which one you need.
The clay tile can be drilled if you wish to tie a root down or stabilise the tree or other.
I have some in colanders...but i am developing a new method that might prove to be better than colanders and with the same ease of lifting and root reduction...

The idea you have in mind decides the design, and folk admire your design. That is the hardest part...the technical part is easier for me...I have had garden centers for many years...but never had a bonsai...first bonsai I saw was last year in Japan.

This shrub, also resprouts anywhere, so I can cut off the top if need be and restart the top.

You also have to remember how young I was when I started this hobby, 17 or 18, [ 51 this year ] and now time has no meaning. So I can afford to just let things age.
I already have about 15 trees that show the trunk, the age and the shapes, nothing to prove anymore [ though I use my paintings to show my abilities and bonsai is just a hobby.]
So I can take my time and enjoy seedlings as they grow into mature trees.
Best to you.
Khaimraj

* Seeds and cuttings, becoming mature trees, has a weird effect on how you view the passing of time. I recommend the trying.

I did try already...but I try lots of cuttings too.

Neli,

mantra -- It takes 3 to 5 years to learn the Horticultural part of Bonsai -

on our side we usually tell those new to bonsai to get about 300 victims to practice on.

Hopefully you did some Art, the design part will really test your --- imagination.
Especially if your personality does not like to copy or work from nature.
I am sure you will survive the training fields.

See Charles on the Youtube, his videos are very simple to understand.

https://www.youtube.com/user/chasnsx

He is also a member here.
Later.
Khaimraj

Khaimraj Seepersad wrote:My stages of growing, when I am being good.

[1] Root placement
[2] Trunk/branch work - normally just 6 branches
[3] Branchlets

Hey Alexandra, I just started up some tamarinds from seed using my modified from how to grow Japanese black pines technique as seen in Bonsai Today.

In about 3 years, I may have some interesting Mame' or Shohin tamarinds to exhibit.

And I just grew my first Texas Ebony from home grown seed.
Hee hee. [ plus some miniature pomegranates ]

Later
Khaimraj

I start from the bottom...then the trunk while maintaining/correcting the nebari formation...then the branches...
I bought some very nice twisted tamarinds...so now I am growing them...but you know already that...

Khaimraj Seepersad wrote:Neli,

mantra -- It takes 3 to 5 years to learn the Horticultural part of Bonsai -

on our side we usually tell those new to bonsai to get about 300 victims to practice on.

Hopefully you did some Art, the design part will really test your --- imagination.
Especially if your personality does not like to copy or work from nature.
I am sure you will survive the training fields.

See Charles on the Youtube, his videos are very simple to understand.

https://www.youtube.com/user/chasnsx



He is also a member here.
Later.
Khaimraj

I am actually a very good gardener, for many years...commercial gardener...so grasping the bonsai part...is not been too hard but not too easy either. Some things confuse me...especially when there are too many different opinions over an issue. Then I try hard to understand it like in this case.
Still no one has answered my question yet
Will watch those videos tonight...thanks.

Actually I have finished all the nurseries in Zambia...they dont have a tree left over 1" suitable for bonsai. Then I went to India for a conference and brought a suitcase full of bonsai...
as well as another one from SA.
Now I have dug out my garden, and started on my friends gardens...
And I have won a second place in a penjing competition...He he he!
BTW I love to use trees from nature as an inspiration...study how they grow...and use their growth habits/pattern when creating a tree.

Neli, Congratulations !

You can so easily move plants from country to country, wow.
On our side you need permits and conifers are totally banned.Even seeds posting out or coming in can be a problem.

I hope you have ironed out your concerns and are back to sipping iced white tea ane eating green pea biscuits in the shade of your tamarind bonsai.

If I get a chance today, I will drop off an image of the Guava type as it is today. Rains slowly returning and the humidity increase will give me the chance to hard prune the shrub.
Later.
Khaimraj

I have just finished my second pond...and making a bonsai garden next to it...so I shall be sipping the tea there.
I bought the plot next door...just for my pond and bonsai...My yard has turned into a total mess...packets and pots everywhere...cant even park a car...so now hopefully with the shade cloth I put and the shelves almost finished today...it will be better. Just that I dont have much to put in the shelves....it is mostly heavy pots Only one in a cereal bowl into which I drilled holes...that is all. I styled it for a quick styling competition but it went no where...but i had lots of fun.
Bonsai is all about fun, but needs to be done properly and well. And one needs to know what he is doing...so that is the part I am trying to figure out.

Hi Neli

I have spent a lot of time on this thread tonight and at times I was really sharing your frustration. I have also spent many years in professional horticulture but I really have to take my hat off to folk who have spent many years growing bonsai. In the club a have just joined I have been very lucky to meet a guy called Molly (Malcolm) who has never had any formal horticultural training but believe me he could wipe the floor with the best cultivation of plants in pots with any of the best trained horticulturists I have ever worked with.

The replies I like best were from the following,

BigDave Today at 3:06 pm

Neli wrote:
I dont have 4000 or even 100 bonsai...and I enjoy trimming my bonsai...why not trim each brunch after allowing it to grow the same length like with the hedge method, carefully after the short (lets say 2 ), internodes, and then grow it in the same manner, and repeat with careful cutting. I am not in a hurry, and I like it.


Seems you answered the question in post 1.

Why don't you do that for a few years... see how it goes.

Read all you want but try what feels right to you and also try things your way and compare (who knows you might be the one who challenges the norm in ten years time).

And as a gardener I liked the one below.


my nellie Today at 3:13 pm
This is what I can think of : More green leaves on the branch, more photosynthesis, more energy, more vigor, more roots, better health.

Also remember that you know you climate better than anyone. I remember when I was younger buying specimen plants in Italy and they were pruning so late for growth that we could never achieve in the UK.

regards

John

Dear John...(sounds funny)
It is past midnight here...and I am trying very hard to figure pros and cones...of what is best for my trees.
I do a lots of research...and file everything...The problem is you can not believe everything on the internet. You have to think every thing over, generate a good knowledge base and reasoning. With so many variables... ( I am an engineer) that when one change so many other things change...I am really trying to figure out the physiological responses of plants to different trigger factors.
I found this:
http://bjorvalabonsaistudio.com/2012/05/
It talks about how shading of the inner part in maples can cause perishing of buds and branches...and the need for partial defoliation several times a year in order to bring light to the inner parts of the canopy.
It talks also of shortening some branches to one pare of buds during the growing season.
Now it makes me think...this HM, does it not shade the inner parts of the canopy too much???? Looking at the sheered trees, I suspect it does.
Another confusion....another info to assimilate, evaluate...and decide how relevant it is.
Another video here:
http://bjorvalabonsaistudio.com/2012/07/
makes me ask so many new questions:
He performed selective shortening of shoots to one or two sets of leaves,partial defoliation in order to counter balance the apical dominance, causing too much growth at the top, and to open the canopy, to bring more light inside.
And he does that several times a year, and one weakened trees as well, to balance the growth, and strengthen the weak areas..

I saw some very long internodes right from the beginning, of the new growth...some of them at the top, and were not shaded..
How will HM deal with this situations...since it is more or less one for all situations...shoots are left to grow freely. How is the apical dominance counteracted in order to have more growth in the lower areas?...how is the tree balanced?
Do we have enough control with the HM over this aspects? And what are the repercussions?
Thanks you for your kind comments...climatic conditions for sure affect growing bonsai....I have some slowing of growth...during next month when winter starts here, but nothing compared to the challenges you have there. So I get much more growth in a season...and can trim much more than you.
One thing for sure is: health of the tree has to come first. 'Thank You!

Hi Neli,

The answers you seek will be given, but your looking in the wrong place I think. If you look to your trees for the answers, they will tell you, but only in time. Bonsai like most aspects of life is very easy, its just us humans that overcomplicate things.

We could find an answer to anything we want on the internet, we can also find something else to contradict that and that often is the crux of the matter, which way will work for us best ? Which can only be answered through application and then observing.

I guess that is a different way to approach it Neli, hope you don't mind.

Cheers

David

Neli,

just a little bit - as Arthur Atkinson [ Barbados , also a member here ] said, you have to take into account the angle of the sun for the area you are in.

As bright as our light is inland, near the sea is infinitely greater.

That said, our trees, example Tamarindus, Caribbean / Honduran pine, Gmelina, even the Southern Chinese elm, can be left with more leaves internally, than say up in Florida. Especially if you use a reflective surface soil mix [ white silica based gravel for example .]

Aside, I have discovered that Sageretia and Serissa c. can handle full sun if kept moist enough, and produce even more leaves internally. Hence my use of 1/3 lawn fertiliser to hold the green and not go to yellowed green.

Getting images ready for you.

Before I forget, as hot as our sun is, we still drop from 33 deg.C to around 22 deg,C at night for the months of May, June, July and August. Being less hot afterwards and holding the coldness for longer as the daylight shortens.
Presently, rains are returning, back up to 65 % humidity during the day and 75 % or so at night, with breezes.
Later.
Khaimraj

Neli,

here is the guava type, allowed to go hairy. Waiting for the rain so I can severely cut back the head and leave the lower branch to continue thickening.
Khaimraj



Same size pot as above. This one was grown in a 1/3 of a 55 US gallon black barrel for about 4 years.



This shrub has unusual healing abilities, wounds are normally well healed. Plus the bark flakes and gives good contrasts.

David Willoughby wrote:Hi Neli,

The answers you seek will be given, but your looking in the wrong place I think. If you look to your trees for the answers, they will tell you, but only in time. Bonsai like most aspects of life is very easy, its just us humans that overcomplicate things.

We could find an answer to anything we want on the internet, we can also find something else to contradict that and that often is the crux of the matter, which way will work for us best ? Which can only be answered through application and then observing.

I guess that is a different way to approach it Neli, hope you don't mind.

Cheers

David

Actually I fully agree with you...but while gaining experience I can mess up a lot...I am just trying to reason so i mess up less.