Bonsai Study Groups

Just a general comment.

In the recent topic on Clubs, and lack of members, I wonder if anyone asked in their minds, why new members?

Just what is being offered by gathering new members?
Bonsai is essentially a love of nature/trees, and only so many will feel that love deeply enough to want to keep a plant in a pot. Many will just enjoy looking at nature or walking / hiking through nature. A few may even wish to preserve nature.

But what exactly does a Club offer ?

Unfortunately, most clubs seem to be just extended sales / markets for hobbyists wanting a sales outlet.

I am also more in the train of thought by Wu Yee Sun, education first and hobby after.
In other words, I would take the children to see the Bonsai, culture and all that, but would not encourage a child to try and look after one. Too much goldfish in the toilet bowl.

If a teenager showed interest in the hobby, I would suggest an education with some link to horticulture or agriculture or other. We don't all have parents who can pay for expensive educations.

Social get together, I am okay with it, and that's all I have to say on that.

BUT to study Bonsai, as a Study Group, is an excellent idea and if possible go for it. Lucky are the ones who can find a few who will actually have such a focused interest.

A little side point ----- only folk who have weak spines would be easily discouraged from doing something that interests them.
So I do Bonsai because I have always had a great love for trees, and that is that.
I am not much on all that emotional stuff about right to express or do, or so on. If you want to and it hurts no one, go for it.
Later.
Khaimraj

* Garden craft ------------- term used is Master Gardener --- keyword - Master.

Same seek.

Khaimraj Seepersad

I understand your points about education first and gold fish in the toilet bowl, but people today don't have the patience to do as you suggest.

When I studied Hinduism as part of my teaching preparation, I came away with this understanding, which may be wrong but I think works here.

In traditional India young men spent a great deal of time learning about the religion, possible even spending time as monks, but then in mid life they went into the world, made a living and raised a family. Then as older, mature men, with children grown, they again turn to the religion they learned as a youth.

I think Bonsai might be that way. Many people "try" Bonsai in their lives and kill the trees, they move too much, have other, more important matters. But, then in their maturity they come back, because now they may have the time and patience to do Bonsai.

As a teacher I see the idea of planting a seed of knowledge/interest that will bloom later.

Agreed Billy,

that's why I am for taking the very young [ and young of mind ] to exhibitions.
However, as a preparation for life, academic education is more important, plus they can always do as I did, take up Bonsai at around 17 to 18 years [ or with others before 30. In case it's University and Research ]
When they know how to make time.

As a student of Hindu Philosophy, you should not have missed the part about respecting life [ forms]. I am not too keen on trees being killed by neglect, and too early collecting from the wild, with no real attempt made for soil preparation around the tree and time to wait.
[ seen that very frequently down here.]

Yes, I know folk kill with too much love as well.
Stay well.
Khaimraj .

Khaimraj

I do not claim to be a real student of Hindu philosophy, but understanding the respect for the life of all living things, animals as well as plants.

We as a club and I as an individual don't encourage people to collect or purchase plants they can't care for. Our beginner's class and our kids class feature Willow Leaf Fig.

No problem, Billy,

understood. We use the Ficus benjamina [ weeping ] as the starter.
Later.
Khaimraj

Khaimraj Seepersad wrote:

In the recent topic on Clubs, and lack of members, I wonder if anyone asked in their minds, why new members?

Just what is being offered by gathering new members?

From my point of view the point is that there are strength in numbers.

-World class demonstrators
-Ability to build a public Bonsai pavillion
-Ability to give free things to children's education
-Abilty to sponsor someone to go to Apprentice in Japan
--Underwrite teacher training program
-Pay for workshop material for members at reduced price
-Give members group buy prices and tools and stock (no markup)
Free food and games

junk like that...

Clubs definitely have their drawbacks...politics, egos and bickering, cliquishness. But there is certainly strength in numbers. I've been a member of the local club for about 2 and a half years now. Through the club I've had the opportunity to view demos by Ryan Neil, Peter Warren, Kunio Kobayashi, club members (such as Bill Valavanis), and others. Have been able to acquire some interesting bonsai material at good prices from other members. And of course the opportunity to view and participate in the national exhibitions here in Rochester.

However...though I learn things at each demo and meeting, I'm starting to feel like a study group would be more beneficial. I had the chance earlier this year to spend a few hours with a small group of fellow bonsaiers, just talking about some of our trees, possible styling approaches, cultural issues...and found that to be invaluable. I got more ideas on how to go forward with some trees in those few hours than I've gotten in 2+ years of club meetings. There just isn't enough time for that kind of interaction at the standard monthly meetings, and even the occasional 3 hour workshops with "experts" seem rushed.

Got to find some like-minded people around here to form a group, I think...

Chris

I think we need both.

BigDave wrote:

Khaimraj Seepersad wrote:

In the recent topic on Clubs, and lack of members, I wonder if anyone asked in their minds, why new members?

Just what is being offered by gathering new members?

From my point of view the point is that there are strength in numbers.

-World class demonstrators
-Ability to build a public Bonsai pavillion
-Ability to give free things to children's education
-Abilty to sponsor someone to go to Apprentice in Japan
--Underwrite teacher training program
-Pay for workshop material for members at reduced price
-Give members group buy prices and tools and stock (no markup)
Free food and games

junk like that...

Wouldn't it be possible for an individual to do these things by himself? Or maybe with a friend or two...Just for fun friendship and PASSION.


"Passion" is a very very powerful thing.

With this one word as your ally, you won't need appreciation /applaud or recognition from other people, You won't desire for a trophy, You won't desire for money, You won't give a shit on what other people might say to your work or to what you are doing, You won''t be restricted by a "groups rule", You'll always have the drive to do something much better than what you current have or doing...


In the Philippines there is a Popular Phrase "Crab mentality" or "Crab in a bucket"- Simply put, if I can't have it Neither can You!...Like crabs inside a bucket trying to get out, Any crab on top who could easily get out would be pulled down by other crabs also trying to get on the top, this results in a collective demise.
In a group of people (Clubs specially and Bonsai club most specially hehehe), It is a common behavior for some members of the group to pull down anybody, anybody who would achieve or tried with his own effort to achieve success beyond other members.
Maybe it is just in Human genes/nature to be competitive (AKA envious), and as a result it contributes to the whole groups collective demise.

...This is just my observation and I am not against a formation or joining of a club. But for crab's sake,,,be a wise crab.

regards,
jun

Billy M. Rhodes wrote:Chris

I think we need both.

I definitely agree and that was what I was trying to convey. Without the club I would not have had all the opportunities I've had (at very low cost) during my first couple of years in the hobby. But...I feel I've reached the point where I need more than what the club can offer through regular meetings alone.

Jun,

perhaps I am stupid, but for me Bonsai is keeping a tree healthy and a good to excellent design. I am not sure what else one would need?

Perhaps my approach is too much like how I do a painting?

Later L.L.B,
Khaimraj

jun wrote:
Wouldn't it be possible for an individual to do these things by himself? Or maybe with a friend or two...Just for fun friendship and PASSION.
"Passion" is a very very powerful thing.

Some of these things, yes. But if you look at the cost of getting someone to your local club for a demonstration or afternoon workshop, you often have to have deep pockets. Sharing these cost with others (Being club members or a group of friends) would make it possible to have someone over more often, and thus learn more. A club may provide the circle of friends interested in Bonsai. (e.g.: In my 'other' group of friends, no-one is interested in Bonsai, a problem that many will have). As such, a club is also a way to find like-minded people, with whom you can share experience and learn. And as you get more experienced, wouldn;t it be logical to then give back to the younger, less experienced?

Passion is good to keep you going, and make the most out of your own skills. The numbers may be required to get the external skills in, at a price that is affordable?

To All,

so you can clip, wire, and contort, have the books and DVDs, and all the large images to study.

Just what are you planning to study ?

WE can leave out the Eastern philosophy stuff for now, plus if you are from the West, the tree/shrub should reflect home spun Western ideas/philosophies.
Step up and chat please.
Later.
Khaimraj

This is a very pompous subject to be honest, and also a great example of why people are put of joining a club.
My observations in life show me that: in numbers people can't agree on the colour of dung (every palament in the world proves this), hence most clubs have a life span (this is also sadly the case for many internet forums).
Normally the reasons are the same, people seperate over time into groups of like minded people (friends or yes people) and ignore the rest /new members or just people they don't like or can't agree with.
As someone thats painted and sold a lot of artwork world wide in the past but never joined an art group I don't see the point of clubs apart from the fact it's nice to meet like-minded people but then again isn't this what this website is for?.

Sorry if it sounds negitive because I'm not, the only reason I havn't joined a bonsai club is becasue there arn't any near me.
I can fully understand the benifits some people would gain from joining a club but most of these gains are what I would call short cuts to self education, there is eaisly enough infomation on the internet / books etc to learn this hobby or even take it from a hobby to a bussines if you wanted.


Also (off the subject of clubs)
If a 5 year old child wants to cut a tree in half and atempt/ shows an interest in bonsai, there are cheap trees available from most places now or free ones from your garden ... why not? Mozart wrote at this age and the tunes are still remembered today.
If they kill the tree.... big deal! we've all done the same. (hands up if youv'e never killed a tree............ scans the room ).
I guess it depends on the child and how much interest they apear to have, many adults have shorter attention spans these days.
personally I'd be chuffed to bits if my child that wanted to try this hobby.

Rhubarb,

the idea is discussion. I guess this is what Fiona and the others talk about with - the right to just do [ as long as it causes no harm.]

To explore ideas.

Later.
Khaimraj

I have always believed and found that the best way to learn about a hobby or anything is to join a club. I have done this all my life and in spite of the internet, will always believe it. I am a member of 3 bonsai groups, each is different, and provides me with help advice and trees at a much better price then any bonsai dealer. There are members at these clubs with many more years experience than me and I have learned a lot from them. The internet is fine up to a point, but how can anyone advise on a tree that is only a photo? You can't turn it tilt it or examine closely, or know what local conditions are.
I helped to form a group locally and we have a small group of growers who love what they do, Most will not have great trees but they do like trying to develop their trees,
Geoff

Rubarb wrote:
Sorry if it sounds negitive because I'm not, the only reason I havn't joined a bonsai club is becasue there arn't any near me.
I can fully understand the benifits some people would gain from joining a club but most of these gains are what I would call short cuts to self education, there is eaisly enough infomation on the internet / books etc to learn this hobby or even take it from a hobby to a bussines if you wanted.

My apologies, but I have to disagree there.

[Warning: Rant]Learning bonsai without every looking at bonsai trees in the flesh does not make sense to me. Having a club, one can see all the different stages of development for a range of species, discuss options and learn from others. The internet is full of information, half of which is incorrect. Naturally, starting a business is easy. Take a stick. Put it in a pot. Toss a wire around it and call it a bonsai, and some poor bugger will purchase the plant. Next thing you know, they are on this site, asking what to do with their 'bonsai'. It ruins the hobby for many starters, as they believe it is impossibly dificult to keep bonsai alive. [/rant]

That being said: it is indeed a shortcut to self study. One can learn many things about the tree by just listening to what others say, and watching others work their trees. Isn't this the idea of a club? The main problems comes when your experience and skill outgrow those of the club. Then it is time to find a new club or study group, that better matches your skill (While maybe in the meantime come to the old club as trainer or workshop leader?)

Personally, I can't believe how many people here are sceptical about clubs & societies..

leatherback wrote: Personally, I can't believe how many people here are sceptical about clubs & societies..

In my case the answer to that is simple: personal experience and personal preference. My bonsai experience here up til recently was not a good one. The association I was part of developed into something where the administration of the club took over from the actual hobby itself - life became a search for new members without actually offering them anything much in return. Mind you, they were so successful at the admin that they became a group with a substantial amount - measured in Ks - in the bank but not prepared to spend it on anything worthwhile. Getting a Steve Tolley or Tony Tickle up to do some workshops? Hah! When I suggested getting Marco Invernizzi up it was shot down in flames on the basis of people here don't want to do "that sort" of bonsai. I have always been of the opinion that you get the best result from the best teachers (not just in bonsai) so I'm afraid I prefer these days to keep my subscription money to pay for something better. As a result my bonsai skills have developed much more than they would have.

Also, don't discount the simple fact that some people don't like doing bonsai in the public eye, as it were. There is no doubt that Burrs is a great bonsai experience for probably all who attend, yet I personally do not feel comfortable in that or any sort of workshop setting, therefore I do not attend. I nearly always opt for one-to-one tuition and then practising skills in private or in the company of a very small group.

It was said over on other thread - to each his/her own. I don't think there is a right way or a wrong way here - it depends so extensively on individual circumstances, and I am delighted to hear that there are so many good clubs out there. I wish them continued success.

No apologies needed, simply a debate and personal views are most welcome, I wouldn't even call it a rant but then again im so thick skinned I wouldnt tell anyway

I guess in quite a lot of ways I'm selfish, for myself bonsai is my own personal hobby (bordering on an obsession) and in fact I think so is gardening on the whole.
Gardening and bonsai is for many a chance of getting away from people or the hussle and bussle of life and spending time with nature alone to collect ones thoughts at ones own pace, people have diferent paces too.
Of course it's nice when you do meet a like minded person and can talk about things that would bore the hind legs off a donkey as we do here

So I guess part of the fact many people shun away from bonsai clubs is simply because of the nature of the beast, it is in many cases something that people use as a retreat from normal life (that and the fact people simply don't like other people these days).


Good topic BTW

I think if I had not joined a club then I would have given up in a very short time. Books can be helpful, but they can't answer questions, or give advice about a tree.
It is unfortunate that things can get a bit political, but that can happen with anything.
I help members in the group I helped to start, and at the same time get advice from more experienced members at another club, without that I would not have progressed and would have given up, I do go to workshops with a pro, but it costs a lot more and not as often.
I have some nice trees which I could not have styled designed or continued to do so without help from others, it is not an easy subject to try to cope with on your own, there is too much poor information to be found on the internet here excepted of course,
Geoff.

As clubs go, I think this topic deals with the Bonsaist, who has already gone past the beginning stages and probably well into the middle, looking for --- what else is there?

BUT once again I ask you to ask yourself, after horticultural health and the various clip / wire techniques and a study of design what more is there?

Or do you go into Philosophy - Eastern or Western ?

Later.
Khaimraj

BUT once again I ask you to ask yourself, after horticultural health and the various clip / wire techniques and a study of design what more is there?

That's Easy to answer!

It is the stimulation of tossing ideas between two (or more people), changing them, refining them, sometimes discarding them entirely and going off on a different tack. The solitary bonsiest gazing at his trees and his navel in his own back yard, misses all that. As a result, new ideas come slowly -- or not at all.

I say this despite tending toward hermit status myself.

That is exactly what I mean, even someone who does not grow bonsai can give a different view on the subject, which is what happens with my other half.
Geoff

Geoff,

we call it - The Fresh Eye.

I have 10 folk who over the years look at my work from scratch to the middle, and give the critical eye - of oil painting.
I have a problem when something is finished, I go deaf.
Later.
Khaimraj