Re: Individual Commentary n the Bonsai of Others

bobby little Tue Aug 18, 2009 9:23 pm

As stated elsewhere, my other hobby is kung fu. In kung fu you learn by getting hit. However, my experience is that ther are two ways of getting hit. 'ego' smacks and 'teaching' smacks. To illustrate:

I received several ego smacks from a young lad at a Wing Chun class I had been attending for about a month. He didn't realise that I'd studied it elswhere for quite some time and had done my time at other classes in other styles for years before. He kept smacking me in the mouth (on one occasion with his elbow, which he cut on my teeth, then ran off snivelling like a teenage girl with a broken heart). He kept hitting me because he wanted to put me in place in the pecking order and let me know who was boss. I didn't respond, despite my geordie urge to kick the bogeys out of him. Eventually, however, we were doing a drill that involved shin kicking your opponent and taking his leg away, dropping him. My previous training in t'ai chi stopped him from doing this easily, because I wasnt inclined to make it easy for him, so he got angry kept kicking me harder and harder, which is not the correct technique anyway, and started to get cross. when it was my turn, I just dropped him hard onto his arse, apologised, picked him up and never had a problem with him again.

Teaching smacks I will tolerate forever, because it's somebody who is your superior in the art giving you a dig to let you know that you aren't doing it right. There's no malice, no ego, just support and a wish to pass the art along. I've had plenty, continue to get them, and I hope I always will, because it means I'm still being taught and still learning.

Jay Gaydosh Tue Aug 18, 2009 9:27 pm

Jim, 72, eh?

Your not an old fart, just well seasoned.

I'm 52, still wet behind the ears. Never mind, it's raining!

I'm a youth teacher... constantly involved with one youth program or another. Bonsai is becoming a gateway to a new set of kids. As a veteran of 3 years as an Army MP and 4 years as a MArine Infantryman, I don't have much tolerance for the facial "appliances", screwed up hairdoos, black clothing or trousers hanging down with the skivvies hanging out. But, if I can get past all that and teach a kid how to appreciate a living piece of art, then I'm good with that.

Kev, Just remember, God created only so many perfect heads, the rest he covered with hair!

I can't raise the ambition to change that avitar. It was one of the few times my wife was able to get the camera from me and catch me. Gabby, the wee-un is now 4 years old. Just as sweet and just as ornery as can be.

Glad I was able to clarify my point.

Jay

Guest Tue Aug 18, 2009 9:36 pm

Thank goodness that 'English' like wot it is teached in my skool it THE language of this forum. It is little wonder that some comments are 'lost in translation', what other Bonsai forum can boast such a cross section of talents and geographic diversity, this was the view a few moments ago 'Who's online'

Individual Commentary n the Bonsai of Others - Page 2 Whos-o10

jrodriguez Tue Aug 18, 2009 9:41 pm

Tony,

I guess you missed a couple of regions!!!

Regards,
Jose Luis

Rob Kempinski Tue Aug 18, 2009 11:30 pm

I always felt that the ability to learn from someone else is a sign of intelligence. The beauty of this forum and bonsai in general is that accomplished artists are willing to share what they know with complete strangers. Try walking into some famous painter's (but stranger to to you) studio and start asking for advice and see what happens. So we should be grateful that when we post an image and get a constructive comment from an experienced artist that even if it is a bit strong/blunt we learn from it.

One of the best things I learned from participating in this forum (for many years now) is this - the best bonsai start from the best material. The one common feature of all good artists is is they recognize good material to style. Time is a limiting factor for everyone. To maximize time start with good material. So for example when someone posts a photo of a poor piece of tropical tree that due to their climate zone has to struggle for long periods indoors, I know from experience it will never amount to a good bonsai and it will not really teach them much but will indeed consume resources (time and money and shelf space) that could be better spent on a zone friendly tree with more potential. That was a hard learned lesson for me so take the comment and do something positive about it.

When someone posts a stick in a pot they can only be doing so because they don't understand the point that the best bonsai start from the best material - so it appears that they need someone to mentor them and explain the universal point. Otherwise why post a photo of a stick in a pot?

waway Wed Aug 19, 2009 6:47 am

Guys here's my two cents (even if im not the the right person on this matter but this is just what i think)

I have just started to be on this hobby, about 4 months, and I know I don't have all the know-hows of taking care of a plant much more making a plant into a bonsai. But I'm very willing and able to learn. Unfortunately, there haven't any books available in our area that is why I'm making the internet sort of my 'classroom'. I have registered to different bonsai sites, even on the ones where there are many forumers that are my fellow countrymen. But nothing beats this place, something or somewhat I feel at home here, I feel like that you guys are my big daddys and mommys Smile

. And like our real dad and mom we always get some good scolding and spanking but bottom line is that they love you and they care for you. That's why I conditioned my self to some 'spanking' and 'scolding' everytime I ask for some advices and help from everyone here. There is always two sides of a coin. Maybe just maybe people get hurt by what other people are saying or commenting because they ask for some advices regarding their tree but at the back of their minds they are fishing for compliments. I believe that this hobby is a continuing learning experience because bonsai is an art and art is not an absolute knowledge. I know there is no easy way in learning this art and I have conditioned myself to go through all the beating and hardship.

I hope to learn more and more from you guys. Keep up the good work.

Happy Bonsaiing to everyone.

warren
(by the way, waway is my nickname) Smile

Guest Wed Aug 19, 2009 2:42 pm

Somebody mentioned that we are all 'passionate' when it comes to bonsai, and for some they are like our kids (and nobody likes to be told how to raise their kids) and if given a beating it hurts... that's because we care.

This forum is bigger than the sum of its parts, it will continue to offer great advice and to the despondent out there... solace.

A note of caution to those who act irresponsibly, anything posted on the forum or the web for that matter is there FOREVER, and somewhere down the line what you post may well come back to bite you... photos of me as a pirate (and worse) get my meaning?

So ladies (of both kinds) Play nicely jocolor

**fiona** Wed Aug 19, 2009 2:52 pm

I'm always nice to you. I have to be seeing as how you've got two of my trees just now. And anyway, I thought you suited that pirate rig-out. It made you look so dashing and handsome. Now what's that adage again ... when you're in the hole....

stop digging!

**John Quinn** Wed Aug 19, 2009 6:11 pm

I've been out of town for several days and unavailable to post earlier, so I will just echo a few of the previous comments.
If you post on this forum, or anywhere the net, expect feedback and suggestions, whether or not you ask for it. If that doesn't suit you, post your images on Flicker or a similar site, if you just want to see them on the internet.
The vast majority of comments on this site are successfully tailored to the competence level of the poster. It is usually obvious when a poster is totally inexperienced and just needs to be breast fed. At the same time, a total novice needs to recognize his or her limitations and be receptive to feedback.
It is very irritating for someone to post a query asking to be told everything they need to know about 'X', while admitting they have not so much as opened a book...remember books?
It may be difficult to understand the true intent of a poster's comments, in the absence of verbal and visual cues, especially when English may be a second of third language for many. I have seen this lead to hurt feelings when comments were misinterpreted.
When comments do seem designed to be hurtful, they will be dealt with at the discretion of the administrator and moderators.
You can't make everyone happy, all the time.

Guest Wed Aug 19, 2009 6:20 pm

fionnghal wrote:I'm always nice to you.

The lady doth protest too much, methinks.
Hamlet Act 3, scene 2, 222–230

bobby little Wed Aug 19, 2009 6:22 pm

Get a room you two Very Happy

Norma Wed Aug 19, 2009 7:04 pm

Hey bobby little,

And the topic is about respect and the effect of hurtful comments ..... think about what you just implied ! It's not funny !!

These are two people I enjoy reading who match wit and fun with a zeal for the fellowship of bonsai.

Norma

Jay Gaydosh Wed Aug 19, 2009 7:31 pm

John Quinn wrote:The vast majority of comments on this site are successfully tailored to the competence level of the poster. It is usually obvious when a poster is totally inexperienced and just needs to be breast fed. At the same time, a total novice needs to recognize his or her limitations and be receptive to feedback.
It is very irritating for someone to post a query asking to be told everything they need to know about 'X', while admitting they have not so much as opened a book...remember books?

Now there is another point begging to be heard. Comments MAY be posted to the level of experience of the poster; BUT, the purpose of the forum, instead of e-mail is so that others (especially others of lesser competence) can also glean from the posts.

Occasionally one will find someone looking to be handheld through the process; however, referring to them as "needs to be breastfed" falls into the level of discource that should be avoided. Instead of labelling people or calling people names it would be better to direct them to previous threads or reference manuals that will provide the basic information. Occasionally a little handholding doesn't hurt either.

While it is a fact that you can't please all of the people all of the time, you WILL please more of the people more of the time if you at least try.

Jay

**fiona** Wed Aug 19, 2009 7:37 pm

Fear not fair Norma, for the gentlemen have merely given me the opportunity to demonstrate my far superior knowledge of the Bard than either of those two by quoting the Scottish Play:
in general their words are 'but a tale told by an idiot, full of sound and fury, signifying nothing'

Tony wrote: The lady doth protest too much, methinks. Hamlet Act 3, scene 2, 222–230

'You do unbend your noble strength to think so brainsickly of things' because it's a well known fact that I am 'too full of the milk o' human kindness' to pass any unkind comment on you, 'thou cream faced loon'.

Bobby Little wrote:Get a room you two

'we shall proceed no further in this matter...'
'... whose horrid image doth unfix my hair
And make my seated heart knock at my ribs,
Against the use of nature. Present fears
Are less than horrible imaginings.'

But you are right, Norma, in that to those who did not know that we know Bobby quite well now too albeit indirectly, might have been a bit taken aback by the comment. I am not, but as John and others have pointed out it does rather go to show one how things can be misinterpreted or a joke backfire.

So, my lords Tony and Bobby, when shall we three meet again? 'I drink to the general joy of the whole table'

PS and don't get me started on the historical inaccuracy (travesty) that is Macbeth. (Forbey's already heard it)
'

bobby little Wed Aug 19, 2009 7:44 pm

So, my lords Tony and Bobby, when shall we three meet again? 'I drink to the general joy of the whole table'

blimey

Velodog2 Wed Aug 19, 2009 8:41 pm

Forums die in many ways. Being watered down into politically correct, completely inoffensive to anyone, yet non-nutritious and bland pablum is certainly one way. Despite our efforts here, I think if we keep our current crop of motley moderators we need not fear this fate.

**fiona** Wed Aug 19, 2009 9:13 pm

Velodog2 wrote: .... watered down into politically correct, completely inoffensive to anyone, yet non-nutritious and bland pablum

Ooooooh Velodog! What an exquisite turn of phrase. If I may be politically incorrect, it was almost sexy. Laughing

If I remember correctly "pabulum" is also used in the context of something that feeds a fire. I would like to think that this is exactly what we do on this forum.

With every best regard and respect,

the Bodacious Babe of the Motley Moderators

Jay Gaydosh Wed Aug 19, 2009 9:20 pm

Velodog2 wrote:Forums die in many ways. Being watered down into politically correct, completely inoffensive to anyone, yet non-nutritious and bland pablum is certainly one way. Despite our efforts here, I think if we keep our current crop of motley moderators we need not fear this fate.

"Being watered down into politically correct, completely inoffensive to anyone, yet non-nutritious and bland pablum is certainly one way." is not what I'm seeking, never has been and there is no need for either. HOWEVER, this is a Bonsai Forum, not politics, not controvertial subject matter, nor is it necessay to be difficult, mean-spirited or snotty in order to convince someone that you don't like their tree or that they would be best served to remove a branch.

Bluntness doesn't have to be presented in an "unfriendly" manner. THe vast majority of the bonsai masters or advanced members here are totally capable of communicating their views without giving someone a cyber- smack upside the head.

**JimLewis** Wed Aug 19, 2009 9:29 pm

Occasionally one will find someone looking to be handheld through the process; however, referring to them as "needs to be breastfed" falls into the level of discource that should be avoided. Instead of labelling people or calling people names it would be better to direct them to previous threads or reference manuals that will provide the basic information. Occasionally a little handholding doesn't hurt either.

I'll hold your hand ONLY if I sense you have done at least some homework beforehand -- remember homework? I don't see it as often here, but I also hang out at an almost 100% beginners' site, where we often are asked to write bonsai 101 over and over again. The fellow (most often a younger fellow [under 30 -- rudeness and presumptuousness seems to diminish after age 30]) hasn't bothered to check his library, hasn't bother to check the site's fairly extensive tutorials section, but has purchased 20 sticks in pots and wants detailed instructions on each one. And wants them now and in a single post.

Oh yes. . . his requests are also typed with run-on sentences, no capitalization, nary a period or comma, texting/Twitter-style shorthand, and a TOTAL dearth of spelling.

I think it is remarkable how many of us -- even curmudgeonly me -- manage to keep our tempers down to at least a simmer.

There IS such a thing as being too nice to people who don't deserve it. Go Velodog!

Jay Gaydosh Wed Aug 19, 2009 9:43 pm

Jim,

I agree with your entire last post. That being said, I think it is better to direct someone to the beginner's website you referred to than to bite your tongue until you get so riled that you tell them this isn't a babysitting service.

So, if you anticipate that some semblance of effort has been applied, then do a little hanholding. If not, instead of biting their heads off in the forum, send them a PM and explain your position.

In one forum I participate in, I have a standard "Dear Stupid" response saved in MS Word. Whenever a similar situation arises I cut and past in a PM and avoid running my BP to dangerous levels.

It kind of goes with a lesson taught in Marine NCO School (for the non-military that is United States Marine Non-Commissioned Officer's School). They taught "Praise in public, reprimand in private". If someone is being that much of a problem pull them to the side (PM) and straighten out the problem. That way others are not caught up in the nonsense.

Jay

**Kev Bailey** Wed Aug 19, 2009 9:51 pm

And that Jay is largely how anything disturbing is dealt with. But if there is ever something that anyone has concerns about, forward the post topic to me or any of the mods that are online and we will usually pursue the PM route.

Harleyrider Wed Aug 19, 2009 10:24 pm

.... watered down into politically correct, completely inoffensive to anyone, yet non-nutritious and bland pablum

To quote one of the great thinkers of our time: "Political correctness is the language of cowardice. F*** politically correct, I say." Billy Connolly

It kind of goes with a lesson taught in Marine NCO School (for the non-military that is United States Marine Non-Commissioned Officer's School).

SIR, YES SIR!

Very Happy

Barry M Wed Aug 19, 2009 11:36 pm

I mean this as a constructive suggestion - keep replies specific to the actual questions that are included in a posted message. Recently I posted a question and with it I included a photo of my tree. What I received was a rather negative evaluation of my tree and not an answer to my question.

**JimLewis** Thu Aug 20, 2009 1:51 am

Barry, I looked for that post, but the rather primitive search function here didn't find one where your question wasn't answered. Can you point me to it?

Barry M Thu Aug 20, 2009 1:57 am

"Barry, I looked for that post, but the rather primitive search function here didn't find one where your question wasn't answered. Can you point me to it?"

Sure Jim. I think it was called "Follow-Up to Severely Injured Branch (etc. etc.)" One of the replies responded to my question and I did cut off the questionable root that I asked about.

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