Individual Commentary n the Bonsai of Others

Just so everyone knows, I'm not picking a fight, just asking for discussion on the topic.

I have read the comments regarding bonsai photos in this forum and I have run up againsts a problem of perceptions. Needless to say, I feel it could be used as a "Learning moment" for myself and others,

Bonsai is an artform with basic rules, we have discussed those rules and the fact that they are guidelines and my be modified, ignored, forgotten, etc. in favor of the tree involved and the eye of the artist.

While I and others frequently put our trees out there for suggestions, critiques and commentaries, at times those returned comments are quite negative and/or absolute.

As an example, I was told (in another forum) that my decision to use a Scottish Heather wouldn't work. So I did it anyway. Photos included here.



It is still under development, but I believe it will make a nice little bonsai down the road.

Someone can pop in and say they've been working on a tree and seem quite happy with their work (not even asking for advice) and another will pop in a tell them how bad it looks.

Now, it is important to note that there are a number of particpants in this forum who are quick to compliment and are also quick to make statements like, "I've never really seen one of these work out, but you might try this" or "nice tree, but the top appears to be leaning back, might I suggest removing this and pulling this forward".

These helpfull enthusiasts make a tremendously positive contribution to the art and should be applauded.

However, telling someone (that just stated they prefer untortured trees that the work they just posted for the viewing enjoyment of others) that thier work is lacking verses easing them into suggestions that might improve their trees appears counterproductive.

Again, this was posted as a catalyst for discussion not confrontation.

Thanks,

Jay

I have been on other boards and watched people simply tear each other trees up and then move on to character assassinations. Eventually the community suffers because those who don't participate find nothing else on the board to comment on. Remember those who are brutally honest enjoy the brutality much more than the honesty. Constructive criticism is an attempt to help, not destroy. Thats just my two cents.

We're up to 4 cents for a kinder gentler forum. Thanks. Jay

Hi Jay, I am aware that sometimes I am 'Brutal' in some of my responses to posts, this is only given as constructive, you have quoted the phrase "to be brutally honest"... sometimes that is the best option...

Anyone posting a tree up for comment has to be prepared for what folk reply with, this is ... after all... a forum... and you may well be cast to the lions... or get the thumbs down.

Having said that the 'Forum' IS VERY ACTIVELY moderated by a dedicated team (including me) and any inappropriate comments/behaviour is stamped on quickly.

I have no issue with comments such as 'I do not like what you have done' so long as the poster backs up why they do not like it! plus... comments like 'Nice tree' have no value whatsoever... all I ask is that posters 'add value' to comments. 'Nice tree, I particularly like the tree/pot combination' what do YOU think...

Perhaps the most value this forum has is that folk DO put up trees for comment and Folk DO reply... interestingly for every registered member reading this Forum there are four times as many not registered... are they too afraid to post?

This is THE best forum I have seen for quality of commentary. It's not perfect, but the vast majority of comments are constructive. We can discuss all day whether a particular comment is 'gentle' enough, but the bottom line is that if you put a tree up on the web and ask, either explicitly or implicitly, for comments, then you need to take what you get and do with it what you will. If someone gets jetted out the back of the hobby because they got their feelings hurt from not being sufficiently encouraged on an internet forum then I don't believe there was much commitment there to begin with.

Thanks Tony,

Like you I can be 'brutally honest', but I see bonsai as an endeavor that is, first and foremost, subjective, not objective. There aren't many of us bonsai addicts who aren't passionate about our trees. Just because you like it, or I like it, doesn't meen anyone else will like it.

If I find a tree, in my possession, that I don't like, I try to fix it or I get rid of it. If I find a tree in someone else's collection I DON'T like, I keep it to myself. Then there is the dangerous question "What do you think?"

That in no way prevents anyone from chiming in with a photoshop-possibility for improvement, or suggestions on alternatives to styling. However, brutal honesty is bound to leave someone worseoff in the community that might otherwise be allowed to flourish. Me, on the other hand, if you don't like my tree and I do, fire away. It's easy for me to move to another thread. Not everyone is that thick skinned (or headed).

Jay

Hi Jay,

I have been on web forums for almost 10 years... and UNMODERATED sites can get out of hand. This Forum IS the best (then again I would say that) but even in the short time (since 1st January this year) this site has banned/blocked people... the 'average' poster/reader will not be aware of this. Moderators are not BIG BROTHER we simply keep the peace... and I am sure you will agree its a Peace worth keeping. Now... where did I put that soap box?

Velodog2 wrote:This is THE best forum I have seen for quality of commentary. It's not perfect, but the vast majority of comments are constructive. We can discuss all day whether a particular comment is 'gentle' enough, but the bottom line is that if you put a tree up on the web and ask, either explicitly or implicitly, for comments, then you need to take what you get and do with it what you will. If someone gets jetted out the back of the hobby because they got their feelings hurt from not being sufficiently encouraged on an internet forum then I don't believe there was much commitment there to begin with.

Velodog2:

I totally disagree!

At last night's local club meeting there were 10 or 12 old farts like myself, but also present was a young teenage girl and what appeared to be someone's grandmother. One vibrant and young and trying diligently to fit into a social community contrary to the attitudes of today's youth. Why tick her off by beating up on her tree.

Grandmom was patienly waiting for comments on a nice little conifer she had been bringing along on her own and reading a book while she waited. For someone to decide that she doesn't have the "grit" to keep up with the big dogs would not only hurt her, but would result in me, and others, coming to her aid.

It is hard enough to find new and lasting individuals to bring into our community, without beating down the newbies.

Another problem, which I have seen in this and several other forums, is the quite observers in the wings. They come into this forum to learn, but choose to not join in. At times we hurt run them off, not by how we treat them, but how we treat others.

It isn't rugby, its bonsai!

Its supposed to be a calming, meditative artform bringing man into harmony with nature...fung shwei.. or whatever. We shouldn't be making it otherwise by being overly critical or rough on those looking for support, advise or acceptance.

Jay

It's not only a peace worth keeping, but a hobby worth sharing!

I do appreciate the moderation of this forum and the amazing talents of its members.

Jay

Our aim is for this to be a positive and friendly place for the vigorous discussion of bonsai etc. There is always a risk that you can receive opinions that you don't like or disagree with. Everyone is entitled to their opinion, though you don't have to agree with it or act on it if you don't like it. Sometimes the difficulty lies in the nature of photography as a means of representing the 3 dimensional object, so taking the time to provide well focused shots, against a clear background, from a variety of angles usually helps.

It makes me very happy that in I've only had to ban one member and warn one other from the 1385 that have signed up since January. The vast majority of people here are courteous and sensitive to the feelings of others. I hope that we can keep it that way.

Kev,

I am certainly glad you decided to pop into this thread.

I consider you to be at the top of the list of positive supporters of the art and the artist. You are on a plateau with several others in the forum who have had a positive effect on my participation in this forum.

Even some of the more blunt ones are doing fine. I'm more concerned with those residing in the opposite end on the spectrum.

Thanks,

Jay

As someone who is pretty clueless and constantly hassling folks for advice with poor pictures, I have to say that the reception has been wonderful, apart from on one occasion from one of our continental cousins, who was just plain rude, but it was attended to. I also totally disagree with Velodog's post, as when someone is starting out on something they tend to be lacking in confidence and a tongue lashing can knock people back for good. I am a sturdy chap and not bothered by other people's bad juju but not everybody is as robust.

This forums title is "Internet Bonsai Club" it is not elitist nor is it especially for beginners, but there is room for everyone. From my experience I will be brutal when I know that the poster can take it (Will I mean you) because I know that Will is a seasoned bonsai artist, and from the 'quality' of his comments know that he knows his stuff. It is inappropriate to be brutal when a newbie (2 posts) puts up a twig in a pot and asks for styling options... treading on eggshells comes to mind.

Meaningful discussion, constructive criticism and a little humor/humour* will keep folk coming back for more... not nasty brutal personal digs.

* a colourful/colorful dig at our friends over the pond.

I haven't been practicing bonsai long enough to claim to be an expert or to even have trees worth showing, but I know this. I have seen what expert bonsai look like. I have seen the works of masters and that is what I strive for. Yes, that may mean that I never show a tree, but that's okay. There is an ideal that I am striving for.

Now, what of the person with, literally, a stick in a pot, that jumps onto the forum pictures a blazin', asking what everyone thinks? Maybe they really need direction. Maybe they wish to get input from people they see as more experienced than themselves. Maybe they just want a pat on the back for... what I'm not sure.

If you are looking for direction and help, I think this is a great place to find it. If empty praise is what's desired, I guess you can find that too, but what does it have to do with bonsai?

Don't mean to be brusque. My comments are not aimed at anybody at all. It's just a general statement based on what I see on occasion.

By all means, everyone should continue to seek direction for bettering bonsai, personally and as a community.

Thanks,
Ed

Tony wrote:

. . . comments like 'Nice tree' have no value whatsoever... all I ask is that posters 'add value' to comments. 'Nice tree, I particularly like the tree/pot combination' what do YOU think...

Amen!

As many of you know my main interest in the IBC is to help newcomers to the sport. That's why I liked the old "Potensai" forum we had. It was clearly for folks who were just dipping their toes in the pool, and needed help. Here, the "Bonsai Questions" forum may fill that role, but a lot of newcomers just leap into the pool with our Bonsai forum. That more or less subjects their "stick in a pot" to the comments of everyone here. The Potensai forum had the virtue of being virtually ignored by all the "big guns" of bonsai, and the 5 or 6 or 10 of us who wanted to help could do so. I used to get people mad at me when I moved a post from the main forum to the Potensai forum. I seldom do that here, since I don't think the lines are drawn as rigidly for the Bonsai Questions forum -- even though I feel they should be.

However, anyone who posts here (or anywhere on the Internet) in whatever forum, whether asking for help or not, MUST expect to receive criticism, blunt or otherwise. It is implicit in the process of posting. As in any critical comment, it's always nice to sweeten the pot with a positive comment if possible. But if it isn't, we should always provide some kind of a comment pointing them to how WE think their tree could be improved.

Of course, if you feel the tree is just too awful for words, don't use any. Ignore the post.

I don't recall any truly vitriolic comments (aside from the bloke -- I learned that word from Kev and Tony -- who got himself banned) here. But if you have a thin skin, I suggest you simply not post anything anywhere in the I'net, though here is probably the safest place I know.

I have yet to see a perfect bonsai -- other than Goshin. I probably would do virtually every tree I see here differently if it were mine. Almost certainly it would not be "better," but it probably would be just as valid an approach to tree-ness.

None of us can dictate to you how you do your tree. We can suggest, we can demand, we can scream, rant or rave; we can virtualize it to unreconizability but what we say or do is just our opinion. You are free to ignore it, accept part of it, or follow it wholeheartedly (probably a mistake).

Sorry if someone ruffed your fur the wrong way. I hope it wasn't me, but if it was . . .

Sometimes its easy to forget where we all came from. Even the best Bonsai artists at some point knew nothing about the art. I joined a Bonsai club back in 1997, when i was very new to Bonsai. Some of the members had been at the club for 20 years or more. To say I am totally obsessed with Bonsai would be an understatement,and i learnt very quickly, soon realising i was gaining nothing from the club, except good friends. During my 13 years in Bonsai I have, won the UK new talent competition and represented the UK in Trevarez, France for the European final. Exhibited my trees at local and national shows and exhibited one of my trees at the Ginkgo Awards in Belgium. Back to the club members who have been into Bonsai for over 20 years. Started with sticks in pots and now have slightly bigger sticks in pots. I get just the same enjoyment from my hobby as they have and thats the point. Ive held workshops at a local Bonsai nursery for several years and while it would be great to work with top quality material, I often work with sticks in pots. Seeing peoples enthusiasm and enjoyment is what i get a kick out of and its a good leveller too. Email is also a a difficult medium to get your point across and can be misconstrude.

JimLewis wrote:
However, anyone who posts here (or anywhere on the Internet) in whatever forum, whether asking for help or not, MUST expect to receive criticism, blunt or otherwise. It is implicit in the process of posting. As in any critical comment, it's always nice to sweeten the pot with a positive comment if possible. But if it isn't, we should always provide some kind of a comment pointing them to how WE think their tree could be improved.

...

Sorry if someone ruffed your fur the wrong way. I hope it wasn't me, but if it was . . .

Jim I absolutely agree that we (especially me ) should expect criticism, the blunt is one thing, the otherwise is another. I started this thread because of the otherwise. There is, with some, a misconception that criticism should be negative and to some almost attack-like. I asure you that the motivation for raising the topic was not my sensitive feelings. In a past life I was known as a forum warrior, usually because someone a forum was using someone else for fodder for an abusive barrage.

As The term "nice tree" was probably incorrect. As an example, I have been told that an office Ficus I was given (pic below) had ZERO potential as a bonsai, some comments fell under the "otherwise" category. They might have even been correct, but I saw many little Ficus trees air-layered out with the final result of a nice sized tree at the bottom. They might all die in the process, but I saw the potential.



Currently, we are undergoing the first of the air-layerings:



Had I been sensitive about the first round of comments, I would never have proceeded with the project.

Even if someone started out with "from the photo included I can't see where I would take this, could you include some photos from other angles."

It really doesn't matter where we go with the discussion, just as long as some novice, doesn't enter the forum and quit simply because a discussion between two old forum friends appeared to be too harsh.

Criticize by all means. I guess I'm more looking to see the discussion move from "who's offended and why" to "how to avoid offending and how"

I didn't start the topic because my feathers were ruffled and you certainly haven't in the past.

While in the minority, it does appear that there are talented bonsais enthusiats who could be even better mentors if they learned to lift the tone of their criticisms to the level of their bonsai. Again, this appears to be a minority here, but still present.

Jay

Worms, one can of, recently opened. Two cents worth, mine, here goes.

I was recently asked to become a moderator of this forum, mostly I suspect because I can spel goode and certainly not because I am a bonsai expert -whatever that is. Whatever the reason, it was a pleasure and (handkerchiefs ready) an honour to be asked because I rate this as the top bonsai forum. I trawl through several whose inanities never fail to irritate me for the most part but which do on occasion entertain me because the warts and all of human nature are displayed therein quite regularly.

There are several issues, and first and foremost I shall say that I think the significant majority of the posters on here are genuine in their attempts to assist. I would agree with Tony that most criticisms are positive although some might come across as otherwise. Let's not forget the language issue here - on occasion a post has sounded harsh because the English used is incorrect. That is to a great extent unavoidable but thankfully it is not frequent enough to form a problem and dealt with by the Moderators if it looks like it might.

There are occasions where I have noticed what to me comes across as at the very least, rattles geting thrown out of prams, and at the worst a clash of egos (how's that for brutal honesty). Sadly in any hobby, profession, civilisation this will happen. The role of the Moderator is to smooth it out amicably - to ensure that the immovable object and the irresistible force are kept apart. If that fails then the Moderators have the ultimate sanction and it is reassuring to hear Kev quote such a negligible number from nearly 1400 members against whom that has been taken. I taught in a school of the same size - I wish we'd had to deal with so few exclusions as that!

There will always be over-enthusiastic newbies with their "sticks in pots". I have I think made it apparent in my own posts that one quest of mine is to try to persuade people not to waste the first five years of their bonsai life on this material. Maybe that's being arrogant - I prefer to see it as good advice as I genuinely believe my own bonsai development was set back because of it. I will post as gentle a suggestion as I can to that effect, but on occasion I have also used the PM facility to have an "off air" conversation with someone if I think my advice may be taken as a bit harsh by that person. We have to remember that this is an international forum viewable by members and public alike. The key point again is - it aint what you say, it's the way that you say it.

With regard to Velodog's comment re being jetted out the back of the hobby etc. I dont think Velodog had the scenario of Jay's teenager or grandmom in mind when the comment was made. I can think of at least one thread on here where
posters asked for advice and then became quite vitriolic in response when suggestions were not what they wanted to hear and became adamant that it was their way or the wrong way - ironically the very criticism they levelled at everybody else. I staunchly believe this forum would encourage the granny/young 'un combo. I personally would not lament the departure from the hobby of that other type of poster.

But I think the crux of the matter is that when people ask on a forum, they should expect an answer - we're not here to post rhetorical questions surely? (yes I am aware of the irony in that last bit!). If the essence of the forum is (as I have always believed it to be) as an educational tool, we need to be prepared that the answer may not be what we want to hear. All but the few will happily admit that there is always someone out there who is better at bonsai than they are. (my problem is I cant believe there's anyone out there worse at bonsai than I am). We respect the suggestions of others even when we dont agree with them. At my level I'd like to think I'm learning all the time. And just because I've been doing this for 7 years and Poster Blobby has only been doing for 1, doesn't mean that I am necessarily better. His/her suggestion may just be the stroke of genius that's been eluding me for 6 of those 7 years. Learning can only take place when the learner admits that to some greater or lesser extent he/she has something to learn.

It's about opening up possibilities and anything that does that is good in my book. On many occasions when reading a post about a tree species I myself do not have, I find myself thinking - yeah that could equally apply to my larch/juniper/hawthorn or whatever. I have always felt that this forum opens up those possibilties in abbundance. How else could you get several suggestions from the world's top people? Without paying for it?

Right. Time to give Tony his soap box back as I notice he's missed it. In short, this forum has helped my bonsai development enormously - surely THE major plus point. It has also given me new friends. It has also given me a darn good laugh at times, and I am sure there will be some members that wonder what us mad Brits are talking about sometimes. Bear with us - it's all part of being a "community". It has also opened up a world I wouldn't otherwise have access to.

Bless it and all who sail in it.

Only 7 years, such wisdom for one so young!

Thanks, Lass!

That is what I'm talking about. Unfortunately, I began almost 10 years ago. With an off and on bonsai enthusiasm the first 6 years my growth has been stunted.

I continue to return to IBC because of the tremendous pool of talented bonsai enthusiasts, artists, masters ar whatever we call them. We can't all be shining bonsai professors on a hill, but we can all improve our abilities to impart what we know to those with less experience. Even I can find someone who is interested in learning about bonsai. But can I fire them up with enthusiasm?

As for the teenager and grandma, if they popped into the forum, introduced themselves and asked the proverbial stupid question, they would probably be handled with kid gloves. However, if they popped in unexpectedly and just read a few of the hot topics of the day, would they leave the forum excited to come back, or just leave the forum.

I think that is for us to determine by the tenor of our discourse.

Jay

Question: I resently shifted from "forbey" to my real name only to discover that there is a more talented Jay here. Should I go back to forbey or carry on as Jay and risk sullying this man's good name?

Jay

Jay Gaydosh wrote: ...one so young! Thanks, Lass!

To paraphrase a well-known TV ad over here for a firm of opticians "You should have gone to Specsavers"

Jay Gaydosh wrote:... if they popped in unexpectedly and just read a few of the hot topics of the day, would they leave the forum excited to come back, or just leave the forum. I think that is for us to determine by the tenor of our discourse.

The nub of the matter asked and answered in two sentences.

Jay Gaydosh wrote:Question: I resently shifted from "forbey" to my real name only to discover that there is a more talented Jay here. Should I go back to forbey or carry on as Jay and risk sullying this man's good name?

Ah. Grace you guide!

Gracious did I really say that? Lol, I can be a little rough sometimes, but I stand by my original comments that this forum is still the best of the lot. If you put a tree up here you are likely to get comments that will be helpful, interesting, and not always wrapped in the thickest padding. I view them all as valid, and part of the bargain for putting the tree here to begin with! The only time I feel there are valid issues is when someone begins to criticize personally the other posters, and I have seen that only once thus far. Certainly we should try to be more gentle with the stick in a pot crowd, but typically I think we do ok there. I personally pass those by as I have not much to say, and others can say it better.

I tend towards the rugged individualism school of thought and I know not all are like that. It's taken me an embarrassingly long time to arrive at whatever level of competancy I have in this hobby, and along the way I learned quickly that my trees were often much more beautiful to me than to others, who actually knew much better. But I also learned that what I thought of my trees was more important to me than what others thought, and that the joy came from the creation, planning, anticipation, waiting, etc, and was quite independent of what others thought of the result. I challenge others to learn the same. I have kept my hobby and most of my trees mostly to myself, and honestly view the hobby as a deeply personal and not a group activity. I also think that as hobbies go it is one of the most difficult and challenging ones out there, and to say it is not for everyone is a vast understatement!

Jay, I'm glad you expanded on what you said earlier, it is really encouraging to have members voicing concerns that can genuinely improve the way that we do things/run things.

I say stick to your real name. It is part of what makes this a "real" place. We know you from your delightful avatar, as well as your name. That reminds me, time I updated my avatar now my hair has (partly) grown back.

It really doesn't matter where we go with the discussion, just as long as some novice, doesn't enter the forum and quit simply because a discussion between two old forum friends appeared to be too harsh.

Well, I'm one of the old geezers here (I'll be 72 in a couple of weeks!) and I've been "doing" bonsai since about 1985, so that too is probably longer than 90% of us. I do it because I used to live in Japan, and I like plants; NOT because it is a sacred art (if it is -- DON"T START!). There are many, many, many better "artists" out there and on this forum than me.

But to get back to the point. . . I'm not at all certain I'd miss that too-sensitive novice. It's a wide, wonderful, but often scary world out there. There are a lot of different kinds of people and most of those "kinds" end up on the I'net at one time or another. You have to learn to deal with them. If this old fart can manage to cope with a grandson with dredlocks, tats, rings in ears, eyebrows, lips, nose and (shudder) who knows where else (but who is, all in all, a great kid who graduated "with honors") then this gentle young novice better be able to cope with a few "your tree sucks" comments. Or go away somehwre and tremble in a corner.

And, yeah . . . Use your real name. I truly dislike cutsy screennames. (For what THAT's worth.) How can you "know" someone with the name "Treeplucker."

Oh my Jim, I don't think I ever realized we shared such similar points of view.
Mike (just for the record...)

Jay,

Domination of written commentary is one of the most difficult skills to perfect. Sometimes, the words utilized do not fully grasp the intentions of the writer, or perhaps the receptor has a distinct mind frame that impedes him or her to fully appreciate or comprehend the true meaning of the emisors words. I often detract from commentary because I simply do not want to hurt peoples feelings.

My pictorials a re intended to spread the skills i have aquired form my Lao Tze (teacher) and to help promote a better understanding of the bonsai art. I wish i had people do this 27 years ago. Back then, there was limited knowledge on the subject and those willing to share were next to none.

On another note, when it comes to bonsai, everything is the same, there are just different skill levels.

Kind regards,
Jose Luis