Advice/Instuctions on Pinus Mugo

Hello IBC friends!

I need your advice (whoever has experience and spare time, of course...)
I have just bought one mugo pine (pinus mugo, var. Mugho). It is just an ordinary dwarf grafted nursery tree and I decided to buy it as a learning/training/experimenting material. Nothing special.
Nevertheless, I don’t want to waste it of course....(considering the crisis in my country I could have bought a reasonable pair of shoes instead)

I have read Hans van Meer’s instructive article on sylvestris and mugo pines as well as articles by “Mugo Man” Mr. Vance Wood. I also have spent enough time reading previous threads on IBC and the net. However, no matter how repeatedly we read, misunderstanding and misconceptions are some times unavoidable, I believe. I have come to the conclusion that this dwarf species is sensitive and kind of touchy. But is it really such? So, I turn to you all with the following questions:

1.- Can I eliminate some unwanted branches now? No doubt I use cut paste, don't I?
2.- Can I cut back some long branches in order to shorten them at the same time?
2.- Do I repot next spring? Or -in case the above 2 points are affirmative- do I have to wait more time?
3.- How much root work can be done during first repoting?
4.- The only thing I have already done is to add some more movement to the trunk with the help of a retaining bar.
Please note that temperature for the present fluctuates here between 24 and 18 C and first fall rain is here, too.

Thank you all for your kind help!

I can't grow Mugo Pines in Florida, too hot and humid. Do these grow in the landscape in Athens?

Yes, they do Billy!
That's why the nurseries import them, I think...

Hi Alexandra,

I am not sure what is the highest temp. and humidity in your region, but considering that we have almost similar climates, I agree with Billy!
I always had desire to make bonsai of Acer palmatums and Mugos, I even tried once! But failed due to high temp. and humidity especially during hot Summer period.
Regarding your other questions; those are beyond my current experience with this species, I only have info what I did find & learn from some sources like you did, sorry for that
However, I hope you succeed to do bonsai of it.

Good luck & best wishes
Taner

my nellie wrote:Yes, they do Billy!
That's why the nurseries import them, I think...

Well, I sure the rest of the world is different than the US, but our big box nurseries stock stuff that will never survive our climate. Do you see them growing in peoples yards?

Well..., the truth is that members in our local bonsai forum who have tried (more than once) with mugo pines have failed. But the reason was thought to be the standard mistake "too much too soon". But now you have made me wonder.

Billy, you are absolutely right about unsuitable stuff sold by big nurseries. Seems most probable that this is the case here, too.
I have to check more carefully and make certain that those low pines I've seen are really mugos....

Thank you.

They might work better at higher elevations. I believe they tend to be a mountain side plant.

give this a read.
http://www.bonsai4me.com/AdvTech/ATMugo%20Pines%20Indepth.htm
i can tell you i've lost [killed] at least one mugo through over ambitious root pruning & take full responsibility for my lack of judgement.
just the same, the article linked makes some interesting statements about mugos responding better to handling out of [standard] pine work season.

to Billy's point: i live in a 3a hardiness zone, yet some local nurseries are quite happy to sell acer palmatum to an unsuspecting public for landscape purposes. of course, the fine print reads that the trees are offered strictly as "hobby plants", whatever that means.
oy! those are some expensive annuals!

i am in mild cornwall and while holding a pine night i poled the members on success rates - we had all killed mugos by keeping them like black or scotts pines - i believe out of their exact 'happy zone' you must not weaken them by needle plucking - if the tree wants to keep the needles green it wants to keep them for a reason is my conclusion. Every landscape nursery has healthy strong trees so it shows what we consider bonsai techniques are the killling factor - i just think the tree needs more bits left on and therefore you need to have a different image in mind beore you work them - I personally like neat layered or silloetted pines so dont have a mugo atm

well done and good luck experimenting - from past experience i would say root retention is essential, old needles are best left until the tree drops them naturally, slow the extension growth by allowing to get tight in the pot, fertilise in autumn etc but remove unwanted branches at the start so you concentrate on the required bits.

slow growing species wont be rushed to

cheers Marcus

Thanks everybody for sharing their experience!
Marcus, thank you for the encouragement, too I am going to study the branching a little more and then I will choose what is kept and what is gone

Hi everybody,
I got this question from Nellie as a PM, but after seeing that he asked this question also on here I decided to answer it here as well, because it might be useful for others this way!

my nellie wrote: Hello IBC friends!

I have read Hans van Meer’s instructive article on sylvestris and mugo pines as well as articles by “Mugo Man” Mr. Vance Wood. I also have spent enough time reading previous threads on IBC and the net. However, no matter how repeatedly we read, misunderstanding and misconceptions are some times unavoidable, I believe. I have come to the conclusion that this dwarf species is sensitive and kind of touchy. But is it really such? So, I turn to you all with the following questions:

1.- Can I eliminate some unwanted branches now? No doubt I use cut paste, don't I?!

Depend on the state of this tree and witch branches you want to remove! If your tree is realy healthy and well established in it current container and when the branches you want to remove are not to thick or placed directly above or under a other thick major branch you want to safe, than you could cut back unwanted branches leaving a short stump that could be removed next spring.

my nellie wrote:
2.- Can I cut back some long branches in order to shorten them at the same time?

I would wait with shortening the branches until next spring. Most garden center Mugo's have 2 or 3 years old needles growing along the branches, if so on your tree,then you cut right back into those 2 or 3 year old growth/needles of the branch you want to shorten. But before you do you have to be sure that there are still some candles left on the section that you want to safe, than the tree will react with making lots of new buds among the 2/3 year old needles that are still left along the length off the branch! That why you never remove/pluck old needles on virgin Mugo material, be it garden center or yamadori! They are vital for making new buds on older wood! And if you do want to remove those older needles in the next seasons than you cut them back leaving half a centimeter, so that they dry/die back slowly allowing new buds to form at their base! This ability to bud back in older growth is one off the best points of most Mugo's!

my nellie wrote:

2.- Do I repot next spring? Or -in case the above 2 points are affirmative- do I have to wait more time?

You could, but when your tree is doing fine in it's current home you leave it as it is! A established Pine can and will cope better to all the stress that it is put trough in it's first years as a pre bonsai!

my nellie wrote:
3.- How much root work can be done during first repoting?

Depends on the health of your Mugo and the state of the roots?! But I would be very careful non the less, because Mugo dont like to be repotted that much! But when you do remove roots when you repot it, the thick fleshy ones can be removed up to 1 cm to were there are smaller feeder roots growing from it! But be careful!

my nellie wrote:
4.- The only thing I have already done is to add some more movement to the trunk with the help of a retaining bar.
Please note that temperature for the present fluctuates here between 24 and 18 C and first fall rain is here, too.

That should not be a problem to your tree at all!

Note: For the last 3 seasons I have increased my feeding regime on all my Bonsai, even on my Pines and they are doing better than ever! I feed heavily every week starting slow from Spring up to 2 weeks ago. Only during the hottest weeks (mostly August) I will minimize the feeding on my Pines! This has resulted in loads off new buds even on thick and old branches and more buds/candles means shorter needles! > < And this might come as a surprise to most, but I water most of my Pines everyday (when necessary of course)! With the open soil mix I use there is hardly any change off over watering or overfeeding and my needles are still short (as you can see on the two Mugo's that I posted recently here)!
But this all works in my aria and those not necessarily means it will work in yours! So it is up to you to recognize the signs your pine is showing to you in the coming seasons!

Hopes this helps a bit?

Cheers,
Hans van Meer.

PS. This next tekst should be placed between the red > < in the above note:
Along with the help of proper pinching, candel removing and other Pine handeling techniques.
The above might speaks for it self, I know, but I should have wrote it in there anyway! Sorry!

Hello Hans!
Thank you for your reply. I greatly appreciate your response!

Hans van Meer. wrote:... ... because it might be useful for others this way!

Yes, indeed! Much more useful this way.
And it helped a lot not just a bit

my nellie wrote:Thanks everybody for sharing their experience!
Marcus, thank you for the encouragement, too I am going to study the branching a little more and then I will choose what is kept and what is gone

Cool my friend, you are welcome as alway's! I add some extra info in my post that makes things more clearer! It still is hard to write in this language!
Cheers and sucses,
Hans van Meer.

Hans van Meer. wrote: ... ... It still is hard to write in this language! ... ...

It's the same language barrier for me, too. I always put in posting enough time in order to express myself clearly -as much as possible-
Thanks again!

Hans and Alexandra

You both express yourselves very clearly in English. As an American redneck I am always humbled by how well others communicate in more than one language. In the last few years I traveled to Israel, Jordan, China and Japan. I was always able to communicate in redneck English. In China and Japan we were part of an international tour group and everyone got along in English. Again I am humbled.

Hello Alexandra,

In my opinion Mugo is not a pine that you can see often in the Greek landscape. Most of our pines are either halepensis or sylvestris or nigra pines and they have two needles and not five like mugo. Also the fact that the Mugo is 10 times more expensive in the nurseries than the common pines that we have in Greece is due to the fact that they are all imported (like atlantica as well).

On the other hand I have seen mugos surviving as bonsai even in the Athens Climate (which can be very warm during the summer 42+) but certainly they want a special treatment.

I would suggest to take it slowly and leave a lot of space between works. If you want to cut down some branches you can do it now, but only this. One work at a time. Also if your tree has just moved in your home I would suggest to leave it as it is for a few months first and start working on that around March.

I personnaly do not have experience in the specific kind but we had many cases in our local bonsai forums that people tried the specific type with and without success.

Thank you for your reply, Korf!
I take into serious consideration every advice given so generously here!
Maybe this experiment, if done correctly, proves to be a useful evidence of work on this species for all of us here in Greece who are seeking guidance since we are just now beginning in this amazing world of bonsai.
But I assume you are perhaps confusing pinus mugo with some other species because mugo pine is a 2-needle Pine.

I have been thinking over and over all the information I have gathered about mugo pines.
The trickiest part will be the repotting….
I have not poked about the nebari yet but there are a lot of superficial thin roots showing at the surface of the soil. This amazes me very much! Do you think I have to cover them with some soil?

Hans van Meer. wrote:

my nellie wrote:2.- Do I repot next spring?

You could, but when your tree is doing fine in its current home you leave it as it is! A established Pine can and will cope better to all the stress that it is put trough in its first years as a pre bonsai!

My mugo pine is a common nursery tree potted into the usual nursery soil which is the problem -the quality of the soil. The tree is healthy growing but the soil is completely unhelpful. This is a red hard compacted soil which is draining but very slowly. I believe this will soon prove detrimental for the health of the tree
What would you suggest for this case?
When the appropriate time comes shall I gently untangle the roots (cut some of the heavy ones the way Hans has described above) and get rid of a portion – do you think it’s safe say about 20% - of the old compacted soil?
What if I only use my hands, no tools, no bare rooting, no washing, and no disturbing too much?
Or shall I take the risk and keep the tree as it is taking great care about its irrigation?

Thank you!

Hm.. Maybe us non-redneck / bobbies in the rest of the world should be grateful for a language that is so easy to learn, that everyone can learn it as a second language?

Is it feasible to graft on mugo trunk a new branch using as scion one of its own branches?
If yes, which is the best method to be used?

Thank you.

edit/clarification : I mean approach graft using tree's own branch which will be severed after the grafting has taken.

my nellie wrote:Well..., the truth is that members in our local bonsai forum who have tried (more than once) with mugo pines have failed. But the reason was thought to be the standard mistake "too much too soon". But now you have made me wonder.

Billy, you are absolutely right about unsuitable stuff sold by big nurseries. Seems most probable that this is the case here, too.
I have to check more carefully and make certain that those low pines I've seen are really mugos....

Thank you.

I have worked with Mugos for more then forty years and I hear this story all of the time. In my experience most failure with Mugo Pine is attempting to treat them like JBP, especially in repotting. I repot all of my Mugos in the middle of the summer starting right after the needles open all the way through the summer into early fall when it starts to set next years buds. Second point and this is probably one of the more difficult to control. They like a steady diet of water but they do not like to sit in wet soil. The soil needs to drain well and they need to be watered when almost dry. The short of it: They need to breath and have the soil flushed often.

To correct a bit of misinformation: Mugos are two needle Pines and should do well anywhere a Scots Pine will grow.

my nellie wrote: ........ I have just bought one mugo pine ...... It is just an ordinary dwarf grafted nursery tree ....(considering the crisis in my country I could have bought a reasonable pair of shoes instead)

I love it!


I also have a small Mugo that I bought a couple of years ago. I'm afraid to get started on it because I also have heard it's "touchy".

When I first got it (spontaneously bought) I rushed home to see if I could find some bonsai encouragement. Alas, I found mostly discouragement, saying it's "a difficult tree not worth trying". There doesn't seem to be many photos on the internet of the Mugo as bonsai either, further supporting the bad news.

Anyway, there ARE a numer of them and here is "some" encouragement that seems to contradict the general, negative opinion:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=A6x8QjfWVJA

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bPaU2HTFRaE&playnext=1&list=PL924C03AE666B3E5D&feature=results_video

Yes, I know what you mean.
I have also tried a lot and have collected additionally to Mr. Pall's advice and Mr. H. v. Meer's advice here on IBC, Mr. V. Wood's advice here Once more about mugo pines. Perhaps you would like to read through his answers... and find some help from him, his nickname is "mugo man"

my nellie wrote:Yes, I know what you mean.
I have also tried a lot and have collected additionally to Mr. Pall's advice and Mr. H. v. Meer's advice here on IBC, Mr. V. Wood's advice here Once more about mugo pines. Perhaps you would like to read through his answers... and find some help from him, his nickname is "mugo man"

I'll do that, thank you. I think what I'll do is plant it in a much larger pot next spring and let it grow thicker for a couple of years. Then I'll take another look at it.

How's your coming along?

I'm willing to supply any information on this tree you request. Where most people, at least what I have read here, say they are fussy and difficult to work with I find them very easy as long as you do major work at the proper time of the year. It is at this point where I get a lot of kick back; people just simply do not want to believe what I do is the way to go. The point remains, that I can do almost anything with them and have only lost trees when I have gone outside the parameters I set for myself.