Bonsai, Buddy!! Beginner Indoor Juniper attempt!

Gunna make this pretty long because more info is better, right?

Hey everyone--hope all your trees are good as well as you! I'm a new Bonsai trainer and I can't wait until decades pass and I can experience the long term benefits. I've never owned/grown/cared for a plant before apart from bean sprouts in 1st grade. The only other time I tried to care for a plant was when I was around 11. I tried to buy a kit to grow a Bonsai, and it sprouted and was a couple inches tall...but then my stepdad put a loaf of bread on it and murdered it. I didn't try again. Until now! I'm 23 and spontaneously am delving into it again with a super positive outlook.

First off, I live in Minnesota around the cities. So my tree should definitely be outside, which I realize incredibly. The thing is I live on the 3rd floor in an apartment in a crappy neighborhood with shady citizens...it's completely in-feasible that I move my tree outside. So I'm forced to do all I can to accomplish the impossible, and grow and train a Juniper bonsai completely indoors! Fun, no?? Love a good challenge, no better chance to learn. And I really enjoy learning!

Due to the difficulty of raising a juniper inside, I am focusing incredibly on the science of everything, because I believe knowing the know-how will allow my tree to thrive indoors. We send probes to MARS--I better be able to raise a Juniper inside with the right knowledge, is my outlook. It's only possible, right?? Please suggest specific nutrients by name if it's relevant to helping my tree, I can take it! Alright, then--onward!

Some info of how I've been caring for my tree the past few weeks since purchase and it's environment... I have it sitting directly (8 inches away) from an East facing window that gets as much sun as an East facing window can. The window opens easily and I open it so it actually receives at least 2-3 hours of direct sun for 3-4 days of the week, otherwise the window is shut and the sun is filtered. On top of this I have a full-spectrum CFL compact bulb pointing at it for anywhere between 10-14 hours a day, at varying angles and distances. I've been experimentally fertilizing it with completely organic homemade methods--and this is actually how I want it to stay. It's actually really fun--it's been forcing me to do really weird crap like make bone meal in a mortar and pestle all Morrowind style. But all that stuff is too much for here, maybe another thread. The first week and a half I more than likely overwatered it, so it could be recovering from that still. Since I've chilled out and it's been drying out much more properly. I mist once a day, starting 2 days ago. May be the cause of some problems I describe later--because I used to do it maybe 6-8. My apartment is reasonably humid, and we don't run the A/C nearly every day (only when it's really necessary), so I'm not too worried about humidity levels especially since it gets fresh air often.

I know some of you will bring up dormancy but no fear, I have learned it's really important, and I do have a plan! I will put it through a pseudo-dormancy period in a garage with a timed light for 8 weeks for the last 2 months of the summer--ending April. Hopefully this will suffice, we'll only see in time.

So I'll introduce you to Buddy now! I got it from a booth setup at the Minnesota State Fair (love it!) for $24.00 bucks, labelled "5 year old Juniper--Indoor". The only thing I knew about bonsai when I bought it was how appealing it was to me--I sort of assumed it wasn't that complicated. Ignorance is bliss, no? So I got this little bugger right here:


It came bare--I couldn't help but decorate it right away! You can see the crappy soil pretty well, though.

So, being the giant knowledge-leech that I am, I quickly realized how dire the situation my Juniper was in, and how incredibly unethical and awful the man who sold it to me was! As you can see the tree was alive and didn't have any obvious diseases or anything, but it was most certainly on the path to death if I left it in the state it was in. You can't see too well from that picture, but the soil was basically just regular potting soil! It would have taken over a week to go dry. Not only that (another thing you can't see in the picture too well), but within the foliage I detected signs of root rot and/or some nutrient deficiency. Basically my tree was suffocating and starving, so I had to get it out of that stuff.

So within 4 days of purchase, I went to the only garden center within like 20 miles that had a Bonsai section. It was deserted pretty much, but was still full of stuff. I picked up a bag of very rocky Deciduous mix that contained coarse riversand, fine pine mulch, turface, akadama, bonsai soil, and micro/macro nutrients as well as a bag of Fir Bark--which I didn't know what was, but could assume it was bark which I wanted some more of. I then mixed about 85% of the rocky mix with 15% of the fir bark, and began repotting my Buddy.

After I got it out of its pot and poked away most of the soil, the roots did not reassure me very much at all. The inner thick ones were dark and reddish--a bad sign I had read (anyone remember what?). One side of the root system was incredibly gooey and long and...well, it felt a bit like hair that has just been dyed. Dead. So I trimmed most of it off--I tried to keep it around 1/3 but I think I went over a bit--a lot was dead and rotted. I didn't cut it all off because I felt like I was cutting too much--so I'm pretty certain there are still rotted roots attached. Is this terribly bad? Is there anything I can do to help the rot stay away from the rest, apart from proper watering/nutrients?

As an added bonus--that awesome gardener included a bunch of bugs within my soil as well. Pretty nice of him, huh? I was really starting to resent him. Anyhow, I rinsed away as much of the dirt as I could and repotted Buddy in my mixture I described above. I felt a little better, but I have seen the way that time passing can destroy things. Gotta love entropy.

My newly potted Buddy--grasping onto life, but with courage!


Here's the top of my tree/foliage after the repotting, shows most of the original growth I purchased it with:


Thinking of all the roots I trimmed away I started feeling really bad because I intuitively felt the foliage would ask too much from the trimmed and weak root system. So I chopped a bunch off--removed some oddly placed offshoots, that sort of thing. I felt better--but then I noticed something else odd about my tree, although it made a lot of sense. Apparently the portion of the root system I described earlier as being particularly bad had been that way for a while. After I cleared out some of the bush-work, it was really obvious that half of the tree was INCREDIBLY undernourished and feeble.


See the branches pointing cardinal South from the trunk? There are two--one is sort of curved into a healthier branch, but it's just as feeble as the more visible one.

A better view of the feeble side of my tree's branches, I'm bending the other one to be seen a bit easier.


Now this problem makes me feel terrible, and a big reason for this post. I've read that it's perfectly okay to simply trim off giant branches like that to promote new healthier growth, and I'm really tempted. Apart from them being so tiny and feeble, I've removed many brown/reddish/dead things from them before the picture, and areas around those branches have this white/grayish powder-y area. I assume this to be a fungus. Would it be best to just leave them, and hope its new living environment promotes better health and they recover? Or should I just chop them off, as they aren't collecting much sunlight anyway with so few leaves? If it was perfectly healthy when I bought it I'd chop them off without thinking about it (even though if it were healthy--I wouldn't have to), but since I've put it through all of the above over the past 3-ish weeks, I'm reluctant to start chopping. Thoughts?

I saved an unhealthy small oddly placed branch off the other week and kept it as a comparison to see if my tree was still metabolizing and living (my first tree--nay, plant--ever, remember!), and it was! The old branch was terrible and crunchy and dead and my Buddy was in no worse shape at all than when I got it Gave me a lot of hope, because I know what I'm doing is basically taboo because it's preached as impossible so often. Here's a picture of it in it's current state--alive!



Any suggestions would be amazing! Thank you so much for reading about me and Buddy, I know it was really long, sorry about that! I just didn't wanna leave out anything that might be able to help me.

Cheers!

You can grow plants indoors...some easier than others, sadly juniper is on the difficult side. Note that they can be deteriorating/dying but remain green or healthy looking for a while.

As posted on your intro...I've done a few things contrary to what I was told but I won't attempt this myself (given the conditions/resources you posted). Good luck!!!

Poink88 wrote:You can grow plants indoors...some easier than others, sadly juniper is on the difficult side. Note that they can be deteriorating/dying but remain green or healthy looking for a while.

As posted on your intro...I've done a few things contrary to what I was told but I won't attempt this myself (given the conditions/resources you posted). Good luck!!!

Thanks for the luck, mate.

I just hope that doesn't become the focus of this thread because I know that 100%--It's literally either I try or I just throw it in the garbage. Which I won't do--so I'm going to get myself as much knowledge and insight as I can. Thanks for yours! I'm glad you said ''difficult'' not ''impossible'' because that's my stance pretty much.

In my knowledge-binge I found a really great pdf of an awesome old man who has successfully been growing junipers and other bonsai species 100% indoors for many many years--here's a link, it's a really great read I learned a lot!
How I've Been Growing Bonsai Indoors Under Cool White Light For Years

Cheers everyone

JustLikeAmmy wrote:

Poink88 wrote:You can grow plants indoors...some easier than others, sadly juniper is on the difficult side. Note that they can be deteriorating/dying but remain green or healthy looking for a while.

As posted on your intro...I've done a few things contrary to what I was told but I won't attempt this myself (given the conditions/resources you posted). Good luck!!!

Thanks for the luck, mate.

I just hope that doesn't become the focus of this thread because I know that 100%--It's literally either I try or I just throw it in the garbage. Which I won't do--so I'm going to get myself as much knowledge and insight as I can. Thanks for yours! I'm glad you said ''difficult'' not ''impossible'' because that's my stance pretty much.

In my knowledge-binge I found a really great pdf of an awesome old man who has successfully been growing junipers and other bonsai species 100% indoors for many many years--here's a link, it's a really great read I learned a lot!
How I've Been Growing Bonsai Indoors Under Cool White Light For Years

Cheers everyone

Yes Jack grows Junipers indoors under lights, but Jack is very experienced with what he does. He has had many, many failures over the years, as can be expected. Jack also uses fluorescent lights, not CFLs.

I've read this last year and have an indoor setup (garage) for my tropical trees where I move them during winter. I am doubling the capacity this year due to now bigger and more plants Please read his article well and make sure you learn all of it. Changing a single item can throw everything off.

Ryan wrote:

JustLikeAmmy wrote:

Poink88 wrote:You can grow plants indoors...some easier than others, sadly juniper is on the difficult side. Note that they can be deteriorating/dying but remain green or healthy looking for a while.

As posted on your intro...I've done a few things contrary to what I was told but I won't attempt this myself (given the conditions/resources you posted). Good luck!!!

Thanks for the luck, mate.

I just hope that doesn't become the focus of this thread because I know that 100%--It's literally either I try or I just throw it in the garbage. Which I won't do--so I'm going to get myself as much knowledge and insight as I can. Thanks for yours! I'm glad you said ''difficult'' not ''impossible'' because that's my stance pretty much.

In my knowledge-binge I found a really great pdf of an awesome old man who has successfully been growing junipers and other bonsai species 100% indoors for many many years--here's a link, it's a really great read I learned a lot!
How I've Been Growing Bonsai Indoors Under Cool White Light For Years

Cheers everyone

Yes Jack grows Junipers indoors under lights, but Jack is very experienced with what he does. He has had many, many failures over the years, as can be expected. Jack also uses fluorescent lights, not CFLs.

Err........CFL = Compact Fluorescent Light....it's just twisted in a tube. I even got tin foil positioned to decrease the scatter/lost light/photons.

And I understand all these things, please let's not make the issue about that. I don't wanna update this thread with pictures of Buddy in the garbage because I got overwhelmed by all the pessimism in an already difficult situation.

The problem with CFL is, you might not get enough light intensity out of it. Check the wattage. Wish T5's are cheaper and more readily available but they are not so I settled for T8 6500K 48" fluorescent tube on my setup.

JustLikeAmmy wrote:
Err........CFL = Compact Fluorescent Light....it's just twisted in a tube. I even got tin foil positioned to decrease the scatter/lost light/photons.

And I understand all these things, please let's not make the issue about that. I don't wanna update this thread with pictures of Buddy in the garbage because I got overwhelmed by all the pessimism in an already difficult situation.

Yes, I know what CFLs are. I grow my trees indoors, but they're trees that can survive indoors. It's not about making an issue of it, but it will become a major point of this thread because the tree will grow completely differently than it should. It would be hard to give you correct answers on when you should repot or prune since the tree wouldn't know what season it's in living indoors. Sorry, but it's just very difficult to do what you want to do.

Ryan wrote:

JustLikeAmmy wrote:
Err........CFL = Compact Fluorescent Light....it's just twisted in a tube. I even got tin foil positioned to decrease the scatter/lost light/photons.

And I understand all these things, please let's not make the issue about that. I don't wanna update this thread with pictures of Buddy in the garbage because I got overwhelmed by all the pessimism in an already difficult situation.

Yes, I know what CFLs are. I grow my trees indoors, but they're trees that can survive indoors. It's not about making an issue of it, but it will become a major point of this thread because the tree will grow completely differently than it should. It would be hard to give you correct answers on when you should repot or prune since the tree wouldn't know what season it's in living indoors. Sorry, but it's just very difficult to do what you want to do.

It is NOT a major point of this thread that what I'm attempting is difficult. It's an obvious detail that was established in my OP.

Please help me decide how to balance nutrients, or even emulate effects of outdoors better! Have any of you used fans? That'd be great to know! How about lamp distance? I know it decreases severely, but my bulb is 26w and has focused light directly on a single tree--is 2-3 inches too close or too far in anyones opinion? I haven't seen any drying out or anything, but it'd be awesome to hear if anyone else has experienced this!

Since the main thing my tree is missing, is the amount of direct sunlight it needs (as soil can be emulated pretty well year-round including altering nutrient level ratios according to season). Basically--it's just one of the ways the tree can get energy. After all, you certainly see smaller deciduous growing and living under the much taller canopies. Is anyone here familiar enough with plant nutrients/metabolic cycle to maybe suggest a specific nutrient that may help make up for the under-par sun exposure?

How about root rot? Have any of you guys bought a nursery plant with root rot? Have I done anything that might hinder the roots to recover/regrow/strengthen? From stories and things I've read I got the feeling the most important idea was to get the tree into as close to normal of a habitat as you possibly can as soon as possible--which I've tried to do and described. Can I improve it any way? I've even incorporated a 'feeding' concept that's basically a replacement for fertilizers. The idea is to feed it with things it would get normally--decaying plants that I boil down into water for replacement fertilizer, bone meal made from chickens to increase the nitrogen. Specifically carrots and leeks for their magnesium and phosphorous--I thought my Buddy wouldn't mind a nice nutrient drink in it's fresh soil, especially after so much 'surgery'. I know people say not to give nutrients to freshly modified plants--but everything in my head went against it because there's no way I'd stop eating well after drastic surgery. I realize this is a risk, and it's one that I'm glad to report has had no negative effects so far!

Despite all the hardship, my tree seems glad and no negative changes. The leaves point towards the light and it seems normal, and adorable. There's no increasing brown, just that weird mildew-y stuff I described in my OP. Has anyone encountered that before? I've read about some organic easy mildew remedies, but I'm skeptical about spraying the foliage with any sort of oils or baking sodas or things. Any idea from any experiences?

It's totally challenging, and that's why it's fun and why I came here to do it with others. No one I know has any good interests, let alone one in bonsai.

Thanks for reading my rants again Buddy says hey from my bookcase!

I think it is clear that the route Justlikeammy needs to go down because of his current living arrangements is growing under lights. He has already indicated that he knows that indoor growing is a different to routine bonsai and I believe he has a background which gives him a good understanding of lighting systems. He also seems to accept that attempting the juniper this way is somewhat of a gamble. So good luck to him I'd say.

Perhaps we could give him some advice on growing systems so that he do his best to keep this particular tree alive. I also suggest he consider other trees that will give him some good success - maybe some of the members who have had indoor success could advise him here. Reading some of the threads about indoor set-ups would also be a good start point.

The main thing your tree will be missing is a period of dormancy which it would normally get outside. The tree will shutdown during the winter months and needs lower temps to do this. This rest period is essential for the plant to remain healthy.

He is planning on putting the tree in a garage for 8 weeks to mimic dormancy (it's in his original post). Maybe people could let him know if this will suffice - I don't grow indoors so am not able to comment.

fiona wrote:He is planning on putting the tree in a garage for 8 weeks to mimic dormancy (it's in his original post). Maybe people could let him know if this will suffice - I don't grow indoors so am not able to comment.

That'd be awesome if anyone had any personal experience about this. I've ran into other places around the net discussing a good way to mimic winters, all the way down to occasionally bringing in snow (something I will do) and making the light more indirect.

But I've realized something as I've researched--no one who has done it has any that are much older than 10 years. I'm sure there are some older because indoor CFL's have been around for some decades, but NOT hundreds of years. This is why old indoor bonsai are 'impossible', in my belief. The technology hasn't been around long enough for enough people to attempt the difficult and succeed for old thriving Junipers to exist indoors. At least it makes perfect sense in my head. Also helps me stay hopeful in the chances for Buddy's success.

But that being said--there isn't much info on it because of that very same explanation. I have hardly been able to find any info or research on the effects on plant longevity in regards to artificial winters. Theoretically to me I don't see how the plant will be able to tell the difference if I provide it with the proper attention (which I'm still trying to define, any ideas?)--but it's disheartening I can't find any solid info positive OR negative on the long term effects of this season system. Say--decades down the road--longevity longer than the time Fluorescent lights were even invented, which would be the true test of success.

I haven't had time to read this entire thread, so forgive me if this isn't relevant...but if you're talking about growing plants indoors under light year round, look up Jack Wikle (for example: Fluorescent Light Growing). He apparently has grown many species (including some junipers) indoors under lights without a dormant period, for years. I was just looking through the 2nd National Exhibition Book and there was a shohin display by Jack featuring a boxwood, 2 cotoneasters, cypress, juniper, and a pyracantha. According to the description, all have been grown indoors year round under fluorescent light.

Not saying its easy, but it is possible.

If anyone knows more about Jack's methods, please let us know.

Edit to add - just saw that you already referenced the Wikle article, sorry for duplicating!

coh wrote:I haven't had time to read this entire thread, so forgive me if this isn't relevant...but if you're talking about growing plants indoors under light year round, look up Jack Wikle (for example: Fluorescent Light Growing). He apparently has grown many species (including some junipers) indoors under lights without a dormant period, for years. I was just looking through the 2nd National Exhibition Book and there was a shohin display by Jack featuring a boxwood, 2 cotoneasters, cypress, juniper, and a pyracantha. According to the description, all have been grown indoors year round under fluorescent light.

Not saying its easy, but it is possible.

If anyone knows more about Jack's methods, please let us know.

Edit to add - just saw that you already referenced the Wikle article, sorry for duplicating!

I hadn't realized until this forum, but Jack Wikle is something of a legend, isn't he? I've heard his name so much! I'm going to see if he's put out any books--I had already read the article you linked but no worries it's great stuff. I'll throw you the one I ran into, it's in pdf with some pictures you might wanna see of his trees he's talking about.
Jack Wikl PDF

I definitely need to read up more on this man it would be such an honor to show my bonsai in a decade in even an amateur gallery, still alive and happy Even if a bit mutated from the root rot crippling half the branch system in it's past....

I'd give so much for his personal e-mail!

I think that if you are able to put your tree in an unheated garage for 8-10 weeks then that could be perfect! If you supply it with proper lighting and cold enough tempuratures then I think you have a real shot at pulling it off!
I wish you and Buddy the best!!
--Gabrielle.

Dormancy is not driven by temperatures. It is triggered by shortening day lengths as summer turns to fall.

Inducing true dormancy entails more than just making the plant cold. It could actually shock the plant and weaken it if it plunked outdoors in a dark garage in temperatures below 35 or so, especially if the tree is being kept in a place where temperatures are in the 60s and 70s.

rockm wrote:Dormancy is not driven by temperatures. It is triggered by shortening day lengths as summer turns to fall.

Inducing true dormancy entails more than just making the plant cold. It could actually shock the plant and weaken it if it plunked outdoors in a dark garage in temperatures below 35 or so, especially if the tree is being kept in a place where temperatures are in the 60s and 70s.

In my OP I said how I would be bringing it's 26w CFL lamp to keep on it indoors in the garage throughout the winter--at a varying angle degree than normally positioned, as well as on a much shorter timer than normal.

So no worries!

And thanks a lot Gabrielle/B0nsaiPrincess! I'm really gunna give it my all! Once the 'new growth' I've mentioned in my previous post I think is big enough for my Android to focus on, I'll try to upload update pics! Thanks for the optimism, I can use all I can get attempting something so difficult!

"In my OP I said how I would be bringing it's 26w CFL lamp to keep on it indoors in the garage throughout the winter--at a varying angle degree than normally positioned, as well as on a much shorter timer than normal.

So no worries!"

That probably isn't going to be enough to make any difference. The angle of the light doesn't really have any effect on dormancy. It is the gradually-shortening daylight hours that begins in June at the Summer Solstice and contiue into the autumn that induces trees to begin physcial preparations for the coming winter.

Winter dormancy for bonsai is described here:

http://www.evergreengardenworks.com/dormancy.htm

Note particularly this passage:
"After a maximum period of sustained growth, a temperate climate plant will automatically go dormant no matter what the season or condition. Deciduous plants will lose their leaves, evergreens will curtail all new growth. This is very stressful to the plant and usually fatal. It will be 100% fatal if the plant does not receive the necessary period of cold temperatures required to break the dormancy."

http://www.evergreengardenworks.com/overwint.htm

Just Like Ammy,

simply write to Jerry Meislik, who is a member here on IBC or contact him on the site page I just gave you today.
Ask him about ttalking to Mr.Wikle.

Also do yourself a favour get about 5 expendable junipers of the same type and experiment on them.

Last year, and here in the Tropics, we do have shortening days, but temps never go lower than 15 deg.c, as a test I placed 2 Juniperus procubens or sabina, not sure which, in the refrigerator from Jan 27th until April 1st.
They did fine and are growing normally.
I will do it again this year coming to see if anything happens.
So you should be able to test a cold room situation at vegetable crisper temperature in the fridge on the -EXPERIMENTAL - junipers.

When testing an idea alway get about 5 test subjects, not the actual Bonsai effort.
later.
Khaimraj

You mention that you live in an apartment. Do you have a balcony?
The simplest way to provide dormancy for a small bonsai is to put it in the refrigerator. You have to put it in a plastic bag to prevent drying out.
Iris

Is there a way to attach or hang some brackets outside your window with a platform for your tree to sit on? is that area far enough away from your sketchy neighbors?

Hi JustlikeAmmy,

If you're interested in learning more about bonsai, there is a bonsai club that is very active and has a yearly show at the State Fair. We meet monthly in St.Paul near Snelling and I94. Our next meeting is Oct. 2 and is an auction which you might enjoy. The members of our club welcome questions about bonsai. Here is our website:

www.minnesotabonsaisociety.org

There are maps and information about where we meet plus classes for new members.

Hope you can come to the next meeting!

Kind regards,
Norma