time for more galleries please

coh wrote:Well...

I was planning on posting some of my trees, but am now having second thoughts. My original impression/interpretation was that this was to be a personal gallery, where those individuals with lots of advanced trees could post them, and where those of us beginners with less developed material could also post what we're working on. My thinking - since I'm pretty new, I'd like to see what other beginners are working on (less developed, but hopefully somewhat past the "stick in a pot" stage). Sure I can go and search through old threads to look for so-and-so's developing trees, but the gallery would make it much easier. It's one of the major reasons I advocated creating a gallery forum.

I can go to any bonsai book or magazine (and many websites) to see advanced or "finished" trees.

coh wrote:Fiona,

I can understand your frustration, and I appreciate the time and effort you and the other moderators put into creating the gallery forum. However...it is obvious that there is some confusion among the membership regarding what can/should be posted there. I think this is a great opportunity to clarify and revise the forum description, as only slight changes in the wording of the "sticky" would be required to remove the apparent contradiction (between "personal space, post anything" vs "really for more finished trees") that is making people reluctant to post there.

I totally agree with coh.
May be there should be two galleries: "Bonsai Gallery" & "Progression Gallery"
Just an idea

And sincerely thank you for your efforts & detailed clarifications Fiona.

Yes, a "Progression Gallery" would be perfect, and a "Suiseki Gallery" too

Kind regards Yvonne

Can I draw everyone's attention to the new sticky if you haven't already seen it? You will find it states that progressions are fine, and that you need not restrict the posts in your gallery to trees. By all means post suiseki there. In fact I've just amended the sticky to include them.

And pots! Can potters put galleries of pots there as well??? That would be wonderful!

Hi Fiona

I look forward to post suiseki.....I have a few nice, new and old pots, it is good idea with a potgallery...nice idea JudyB

Kind regards Yvonne

We already have a dedicated pots forum which fulfils that purpose to some considerable effect, and since members can post pics of their pots in their own gallery, I believe we have the bases covered.

Please remember that it was agreed during the consultation that (quite apart from it inevitably becoming immensely confusing about what should go where) too many sub-forums would simply diminish the overall forum.

Fiona, I think the revised "sticky" description of the gallery forum is much improved and should help increase participation. Thanks for taking care of that! At this time there is no need to consider additional gallery forums. Perhaps at some point, if participation in this one takes off, that possibility could be considered.

For anyone who thinks the effort isn't worth the number of views - one thing you could do would be to put a link to your gallery page in your signature line, so it (the link) shows up on every one of your posts. Then when a member sees one of your trees in another thread somewhere, he/she can easily (one click) get right to your gallery to see what else you are working with.

Now it is a free for all gallery, only free from comments.

I was calling for more trees in the Gallery section based on the premise of the original sticky. but now that it is change, I am distancing my self from that call for more trees.

This may sound "elitist"- but the original purpose of the revision of the IBC format (I think< correct me if I am wrong) is for improvement and to encourage more people to stay in IBC after logging in, and to raise the level of works of each member by looking up to those trees nicely done and photographed well in the gallery, "man! I wish I could have or do good trees as well"! ---I am serious before that the reason I was not posting my pictures in the gallery is that I thought and still thinks that my works is still in half finish stage and my photography still sucks. The same thing goes in the Advance technique section. That is why I am not posting there. I consider my trees and works very raw. but the bonsai discussion is serving me well.

On another note:

Have you guys noticed why the "masters" suddenly disappear here, or set their IBC dormancy mode on? I managed to talked with several (more than 3) of them, and I find their reasons very valid. Some people might react-" damn those egoists! they can leave if they want, I am here anyway,,,I can be the new blood"---
The first time I logged in here I saw who was log in for several days. Water Pall, Budi, Hans, Jose, Robert S, William V., Rob K, Will B. and many senior bonsaists. I feel like I hit a jackpot, I can enroll for free in a bonsai school where the "masters" will be my teachers. These people was interacting to people here new and old and gave comments, suggestions and virt despite their busy times, for that I thank them. And I have to admit, That is one of the reasons I managed to move relatively faster in bonsai...I lessened carefully and did not argue with those who has more experienced than mine.
Back then IBC got a very very high standard, It was like an on line Bonsai School where only seniors and "masters" can teach, but now, even those who just dug up a tree a few weeks ago or wired a tree for the first time can argue with anyone else and would sound like an expert...some even don't have a single tree. Everybody here now is a teacher outnumbering the students. Before, you post a tree in its early stage here, you'll get a decent recommendation, but now you post any thing most people will see it as an opportunity to argue on it no matter how worthless the topic is. Before, you gave a virtual, people will thank you for your effort, but now even virtuals would be subjected to full attack even by those who haven't finish a single tree yet. Before, you gave a decent advice here based on your experienced but now the norm is you can give advice based on google or wikipedia.

I personally Thank Fiona and the rest of the moderators (Jim included) for their time and effort trying to keep IBC different from any other forum...but it seems we are heading in that direction too. and if Fiona would leave IBC, I might consider leaving as well.

regards,
jun

Jun,

try and remember it is a - personal gallery - and if you don't want to look, you don't have too.

Secondly, no matter how well one photographs a tree, trees are very much 3d, and photography ends up as 2d.
Very flat.
You would have to use extremely expensive equipment to really get decent results.

Plus, most folk are impatient, hence the abundance of dug up trees with twigs for branches, you know life is too short, started Bonsai too late in life and all that.
Also the desire to interact is very strong, repeated information, and not advice from years of experience.

You learn to just sit back and let time take it's course. The majority will drop out of Bonsai after 10 years or so, most before 5 years are up. It is just human nature.
Plus, there is also the, it is my tree, I will do as I wish situation, or a tree is a tree is a tree, and in that situation there can be no better or best, master or other, because it is always going to be a tree in a pot.

So be calm, and just read what you believe to be good experienced information, and let time do the rest.
Later.
Khaimraj

Khaimraj Seepersad wrote:Jun,

try and remember it is a - personal gallery - and if you don't want to look, you don't have too.

Secondly, no matter how well one photographs a tree, trees are very much 3d, and photography ends up as 2d.
Very flat.
You would have to use extremely expensive equipment to really get decent results.

Plus, most folk are impatient, hence the abundance of dug up trees with twigs for branches, you know life is too short, started Bonsai too late in life and all that.
Also the desire to interact is very strong, repeated information, and not advice from years of experience.

You learn to just sit back and let time take it's course. The majority will drop out of Bonsai after 10 years or so, most before 5 years are up. It is just human nature.
Plus, there is also the, it is my tree, I will do as I wish situation, or a tree is a tree is a tree, and in that situation there can be no better or best, master or other, because it is always going to be a tree in a pot.

So be calm, and just read what you believe to be good experienced information, and let time do the rest.
Later.
Khaimraj

Thanks LLB.

My picture set up though not the best caused me less than 200 US$...except for my old Nikon camera.

...Just missing the good old decent days of IBC. where respect and knowledge and fun were the priority of the forum. Oh well I guess you are right! and things really is changing even here.


regards,
jun

Jun,

Your description fits me perfectly.

To some degree I disagree. Newbie's like me may be new to bonsai but have lived a few decades and learned a few things along the way. If you expect us to be quiet and just observe, we won't grow. Even "masters" make mistakes (they are still humans)...if you are telling me to just let it go and let wrong information or belief proliferate...I am sorry to disappoint you.

We all have opinions (right or wrong) and I like seeing/hearing other peoples point of view be it in line with mine or not. We can agree to disagree but not "mute" us just because we are lower in the totem pole.

I went a round with a senior member here who thinks we "newbies" should be "muzzled" until we earned our stripes. I would rather fight that mentality or leave.

Dario,

I am not saying you should just stay quiet...What I am saying is that if people can't afford to keep quiet while learning...try to lessen as well specially to more experienced people.
In all of bonsai event big or small, bonsai experts were being invited even to the point where a club goes bankrupt trying to spend money for airfare and hotel for a bonsai expert to come. Why do you think people/club would extend so much effort to do this? Why not just invite several new members who has the ability to teach and talk about bonsai to do the lecture?

This is just an observation Dario, and you can see it for your self. Here in IBC, you would rarely now see an expert advice on trees,,,only advice based on instinct or theory were now given and that is very dangerous. I remember one thread here that kills a tree because of that, If I am not mistaken, it is one of John's elm. This is the kind of disaster that some people would get with this kind of set up...and for what? for the sake of argument? that is not just fair for those who spent, time and invest on money for a tree.


I understand that this is a forum, but members should self moderate themselves,.... and nowadays...this is just like any other forum.


regards,
jun

jun wrote: Here in IBC, you would rarely now see an expert advice on trees,,,

Such is the nature of forums...people come and go. Maybe later you and I will do the same.

In fairness, we do not know why they stopped coming or commenting. You are assuming it is because of people disagreeing with them but is it really the case? Maybe they are busy...maybe have other more important things to attend to (like their bonsai)? I don't know...for now, it is all speculation as far as I can tell. No one can force them to help...they will do it if they want to.

Advise here is rarely unanimous...whoever is asking questions have to weigh it and go with what he believes is best for his tree, in his location. Happened a few timers to me and a lot of times, a few "experts" are wrong (btw, there are experts on both ends of the spectrum so the others are correct LOL). Almost lost a few very nice trees myself by taking their advise and not following what I thought is best to begin with (because I am newbie).

jun wrote:,,,only advice based on instinct or theory were now given and that is very dangerous. I remember one thread here that kills a tree because of that, If I am not mistaken, it is one of John's elm. This is the kind of disaster that some people would get with this kind of set up...and for what? for the sake of argument? that is not just fair for those who spent, time and invest on money for a tree.

Not aware of the thread you mentioned...could it have died anyways? If we newbies do not comment, this forum could be very silent...lots of questions will be left unanswered. It is an open forum...if anyone gives bad advise...it is usually shot down shortly. That's the beauty of it.

Again I can only cite my own experience but I received a lot of good input from fellow newbies and thanked by several for my input as well. We need "new blood" and it is only by nurturing the new kids will we get good ones later. Mistakes will happen and we often learn from them (faster most times). Remember, you were a newbie once also. Just my 2 cents.

Hi Dario,
I know precisely why most of them left. We talked about it and I asked personally over dinner why they left, oh yes! we discussed IBC and how great IBC was, That is why I am saying with all of my honesty these things...And I am sad to say, The issue I have stated above is one of the reason they left.

Yes, people come and go in this forum, but we must keep as much as possible some worthy members.

regards,
jun

Well said, Jun.

Some advise come from people, who have been there, and NEVER just speak theory....They become tired of argueing forever, and back out, as some people have a lot on their mind, and dont know when to listen, or ask for an closer explanation ...
The more expirienced member will make bonsai no matter what anyway...IBC or not.

I know this for a fact too.

Kind regards Yvonne

Hello Jun and yes you make a lot of good observations. I think the IBC has lost the spark and close community feel that it used to have. As you mentioned my name I thought I would explain my point of view. Up to about a year ago I was probably the most prolific poster on the site and used to really enjoy helping beginners with their enthusiastic questions but as time went on I could see the more experienced members helping out less and less. They only seemed to post replies to either trees they posted, the trees of students or a thread they had an obvious vested interest in.Links to blogs was also on the increase. There was also at the time a lot of bad feeling between forum members and some moderators of the forum and some dreadful advice being given out to new members too. Having left at that time, I re joined but lost all my previous posts.
On the pus side I have made some fantastic friends on the IBC and I will always be grateful for that.
I do pop in from time to time and answer the odd question but give my time to forums that are more specific to the trees I grow.

Thanks Yvonne.

I understand what you meant. And I am starting to feel the same way. But I am trying to help (I hope) as much as I could to bring the old days of good community back, although I am becoming more and more involved in bonsai nowadays. I hope some senior members here like you, Russell, Fiona, and You (know who you are), will give IBC more fighting chance to stay afloat.

...I owe tons of knowledge to IBC and like Will gains so many nice humble friends from this community and I hope I can return the favor in my own little way.

regards,
jun

Thank you Will for the response.

I think now I knew how you guys felt. and I have to admit it is really frustrating. I now also understand why you guys are answering less and less and answer only to those who were not hostile to you, like students, your own group of friends, and your own thread...I was starting (unknowingly) to do the same these recent past months. I just encounter today a thread of the same result. and I regret having answered that thread. Even the virtuals I offered recently were bombarded with bad comments.


Many thanks for your time and knowledge that you have thought me in the past specially in the carving aspect...Good thing I did not argue with you then. I am still trying to learn and lessen to you guys! and I will zip my mouth if I have to...I am still willing to learn as student of IBC teachers.


regards,
jun

Poink88 wrote:Jun,

Your description fits me perfectly.

To some degree I disagree. Newbie's like me may be new to bonsai but have lived a few decades and learned a few things along the way. If you expect us to be quiet and just observe, we won't grow. Even "masters" make mistakes (they are still humans)...if you are telling me to just let it go and let wrong information or belief proliferate...I am sorry to disappoint you.

We all have opinions (right or wrong) and I like seeing/hearing other peoples point of view be it in line with mine or not. We can agree to disagree but not "mute" us just because we are lower in the totem pole.

I went a round with a senior member here who thinks we "newbies" should be "muzzled" until we earned our stripes. I would rather fight that mentality or leave.

Hi Dario,

I can't help it, sorry man ! Im am still LMAO! I am still amazed and bewildered right now!!! Visit the thread " BEGINNER WITH FICUS---GUIDANCE NEEEDED"


A person with years and years of experienced with the species being discussed and worked on a hundred ficus is being dragged in to endless debate by a person who has not touched a single ficus, and the owner of the thread who did a first time wiring on a ficus, and who happens to ask "GUIDANCE Please"


It really is mind blowing!

Guess you are referring to me as the person who has not touched a single ficus?

To be honest: I would say it is quite arrogant to say, without any other arguments: I am right, because I grew and wired hundreds of trees of this species and they survived. And you are wrong because you have not done this. Especially since you grow your tropicals in the tropics, and we were talking about growing tropicals in the temperate climate. That is as different as growing a plant in full ground or in a bonsai tray. That a tree lives does not mean it did not get damaged in the process.

Yes. You do have have years of experience with ficus. And no. I have not grown bonsai for long, and do not own ficus for bonsai (Even though for the past 10 years I have quite successfully grown ficus just for the living room; But that is a different story).

On the other hand.. I am a biologist, with a good handful of papers on plant physiology, a PhD in measuring plant physiology from a very decent university and former positions at the University of Oxford, the research wing of a ministry of agriculture and I am still a visiting scientist at a university in Australia. Having grown thousands of trees for scientific experiments on plant fysiological responses, I dare say I have earned my salt in that field, and have more than an average knowledge on how plants respond & grow.

Don't judge a book by its covers. Accept that everyone carries experience and knowledge. And until we ask for a full resume and someone who can vouch for them, you will not know what the background of the poster is. You ask for humility in other posters? You get what you give.

Leatherback,

simply look at it all, as the new gunslinger, just riding into town, and being checked out by the locals.

AND yes, as I understand it interferring with live bark, is interferring.

So come on in and have a cup of white tea with green pea biscuits.
Stay well.
Khaimraj

Khaimraj,

You just picked one of the few words I find strangely exotic in english.. Gunslinger. I always thought it was a word that Stephen King made up in his Dark Tower series. You rpost made me look it up, to see whether it is actually a 'real' word. (And yes it is ).

I agree with your observation. It is however sometimes difficult to discuss the merits of ideas when people get inflamed if someone contradicts them. I would prefer to just talk content and now about ego sizes. But well. Everybody defines respect differently I suppose.

Nice tea by the way.

leatherback wrote:Khaimraj,

You just picked one of the few words I find strangely exotic in english.. Gunslinger.

Nice tea by the way.

English can be confusing even for those who speak the language as a native. It is very regional. I suppose other languages and regions have the same issues, but since I don't speak other languages I wouldn't know.
I am always impressed by how well many people around the world speak multiple languages well.

Leatherback,

as a scientist you probably deal with the facts, art type folk tend to be more emotional.

I grow Bonsai, have had 5 years of basic Biology at what was G.C.E in the English system, I have a very high A [ over 90%] but, that's as far as my Biology goes, though I do read.
Now I just grow trees by instinct.

I figure the many grow trees by instinct, and get their information mostly by word of mouth, since most folk seem to hate to read.

Imagine how I see the designs that keep showing up, even with the excuse of flat photography
I am a traditionally trained Fine Artist by the way, one of the emotionals
Later.
Khaimraj

* Yes, Billy, especially since I come from the once British West Indies and had a very stern/strict English schooling where Mrs.B would correct you with a withering stare or some very sharp words.
[Somehow I didn't think new martial artist in small Chinese village would have sent the same image. ]

My sister loves the desert, holidays in Navajo land, every year, rides the range and all that.

Me, I prefer the hills of the jungles, wind side, or the cold of the U.K or Italy.