Korean Hornbeam Forest

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Korean Hornbeam Forest

Post  bonsaisr on Sat Apr 14, 2012 4:24 pm

My beloved Korean hornbeam forest died over the winter. I suspect it was from side effects of knee surgery. One night my husband may have forgotten to close the window or turn on the heater in the sunporch, & a few things froze. Oddly enough, my spare hornbeam, which was in a nursery pot, survived. The original planting was from bare-root seedlings, but I am not going to start from scratch again. I will use assorted trees from Meehans Miniatures, http://www.meehansminiatures.com/ and Wee Tree Farm, http://www.weetree.com/.
To begin with, the correct botanical name of Korean hornbeam is Carpinus turczaninowii. Don't panic. If you can spell fukinagashi, you can spell turczaninowii. There are two populations, one in Korea & one in China. The Korean group used to be a separate species, C. coreana. Some years ago, the taxonomists found there was no significant difference and merged them into one species. This happens in many cases, where a population has distinct horticultural difference, but loses its name because there is no taxonomic difference.
As long as I am starting this project over, I will share it with you as I go along.
Let's start at the very beginning
A very good place to start
When you read you begin with A-B-C
With bonsai you start with the real tree.
The beginning in bonsai just happens to be,
According to me, the real tree.
Here are a couple of pictures of Korean forests. I don't know if they are hornbeams, but they will give you a feel of what I'm looking for.
http://www.google.com/imgres?q=korea+forest&um=1&hl=en&client=safari&sa=N&rls=en&biw=991&bih=1087&tbm=isch&tbnid=_mimNusKAYqz3M:&imgrefurl=http://www.korea.net/detail.do%3Fguid%3D45713&docid=p7m09lpsfbg1mM&imgurl=http://open.korea.net/content/UserFiles/Image/


http://www.google.com/imgres?q=korea+forest&um=1&hl=en&client=safari&sa=N&rls=en&biw=991&bih=1087&tbm=isch&tbnid=hmhR1VbJNbK1xM:&imgrefurl=http://www.panoramio.com/photo/52340932&docid=KGQMLuk-Cj_GSM&imgurl=http://static.panoramio.com/photos/original/52340932.jpg&w=3264&h=2448&ei=xI6JT9a4K6Ly0gHQi5nTCQ&zoom=1&iact=hc&vpx=438&vpy=604&dur=5283&hovh=194&hovw=259&tx=107&ty=118&sig=114336440239185324770&page=1&tbnh=141&tbnw=178&start=0&ndsp=29&ved=1t:429,r:17,s:0,i:106

Iris

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Re: Korean Hornbeam Forest

Post  marcus watts on Sun Apr 15, 2012 8:12 am

Hi Iris,
sorry the forest died in the winter.
Is this the right place for this post though? as there is no progression yet, or any advanced technique - just the hope of some progression once the trees are purchased maybe? As we are all lucky enough to start the section with a clean slate we should maybe all do our best to reduce the amount of post moving and tidying up the moderators have to do.

(This was part of the 'instructions' for this section
"What we expect here is not really one-off pics of trees but progression sequences - i.e. a tree taken from a basic start point through to completion or as close to it as it can get.") - I personally think our work needs to get to this stage before even considering putting a thread together here.

cheers Marcus.
xxx Fiona - the post you made about what this section is for should be stickied to the front as it is already disappearing off the bottom and will soon be lost and go un-read.xxx



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Re: Korean Hornbeam Forest

Post  Brett Summers on Sun Apr 15, 2012 11:19 am

There are two populations, one in Korea & one in China. The Korean group used to be a separate species, C. coreana. Some years ago, the taxonomists found there was no significant difference and merged them into one species. This happens in many cases, where a population has distinct horticultural difference, but loses its name because there is no taxonomic difference.
I am very interested in this Iris. In fact I am very interested in the classification of all the hornbeams.
My understanding is that there is quite a difference between the Korean group and the Chinese group. The biggest difference for me is the Korean is known for it's amazing Autumn colour and the turczaninowii is no where near as brilliant Autumn colour but has a more bronze apearence on the new growth.
Misho bonsai interestingly seems to have updated their seed descriptions for the two groups.

Carpinus Koreana
(Korean Hornbeam)

The true Korean hornbeam. From it’s name you can conclude that it is native to Korea. For the last 20 years, Korea exported a lot of these trees collected from the forest. It is now very hard to import trees from Korea since they want to protect their native stock. The leaves are rather small and they adapt very well to bonsai techniques. It is the fastest growing carpinus species preferred for bonsai. The leaves will either be red, yellow or orange in fall. Sometimes, color can vary for leaves on same branch.



Carpinus Turczaninowii
(Yeddo Hornbeam)

The other Korean Hornbeam. This is a good bonsai candidate because of the small leaves it produce. However, one drawback is it’s slow growing rate. The branch will grow twiggy. It is also known under these various name: Carpinus tschonoskii, Yedoensis hornbeam, Yeddo hornbeam, Carpinus turkzaninowii, Korean hornbeam, Turkish hornbeam.

Funnily enough I bought both types of seeds from Misho several years ago, mixed them up and have still not been able to separate which is which. lol!

But my large Turczaninowii has a distinct bronze tinge on the fresh growth and I can't say the best Autumn colour.
If there are horticultural differences it seems to me at the moment that they are enough of a difference that keeping them identified in the bonsai community at least would be beneficial.
I would be interested in your opinion on any of this please.

It seems that the hornbeam easily hybrids amongst itself. This is the only conclusion I can come to for another Carpinus I have that is said to be Carpinus carolina but has palleted bark and the brilliant "variegated" Autumn colour of the Korean hornbeam. My best guess is it is a hybrid of Carpinus carolina and carpinus cordata, I will post up a picture if you are interested.
Good luck with the new project thumbs up


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Korean Hornbeam Forest

Post  bonsaisr on Sun Apr 15, 2012 5:10 pm

Brett Summers wrote:
My understanding is that there is quite a difference between the Korean group and the Chinese group.
My point exactly. But these are differences to the bonsai artist. They are irrelevant to the taxonomist. Compare with Black Hills spruce. This is a geographic population of Picea glauca that has superior traits for bonsai, but no taxonomic distinction from the rest of the species. Orchid growers go berserk over this problem. In cases where it matters, the Korean group can be designated Carpinus turczaninowii (Korean) or something similar.
Iris

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Korean Hornbeam Forest

Post  bonsaisr on Sun Apr 15, 2012 5:13 pm

Yeddo hornbeam, C. tschonoskii, is a separate species. They are not synonymous.
Iris

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Re: Korean Hornbeam Forest

Post  drgonzo on Sun Apr 15, 2012 5:33 pm

A couple things;

First is it spelled (coreana) with a C or (koreana) with a K? I believe it is correctly spelled with a C.

Next, at least according to Brent Walston, turczaninovii is actually the faster growing of the two.

In my experience researching them both, I find it helpful to draw a distinction, as the leaf shapes and sizes are different as is the autumn foliage color change.

-Jay


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Korean Hornbeam Forest

Post  bonsaisr on Sun Apr 15, 2012 5:43 pm

If you recall, at one time, much was made of the differences among races of human beings. Some were considered superior to others. Now we know the external differences are superficial & we are all members of Homo sapiens sapiens. (Zoology does not use the designation var., etc.)
The most extreme case of this is Canis lupus familiaris, with countless different variations, & a size gradient of 100 to one, yet they are all the same species. Familiaris is now considered a subspecies of the grey wolf.
Carpinus coreana is spelled with a C, as Latin doesn't use the letter K whenever possible. Just try to remember the name is no longer valid.
Iris


Last edited by bonsaisr on Sun Apr 15, 2012 11:55 pm; edited 1 time in total (Reason for editing : Correction)

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Re: Korean Hornbeam Forest

Post  Gary Swiech on Sun Apr 15, 2012 11:06 pm

I grow Carpinus too. C. japonicum, C. turczaninovii, C. japonica, C.caroliniana.

Carpinus turczaninovii is one of my favorites. I does grow fast. And if you keep pinching it with a vigilance, it gets twiggy fast also.

The Northern type of Carpinus caroliniana grows native in abundance here in Central Wisconsin, mostly found near the wetland forest near the rivers.

They do differ in shape, size of leaf, fall color, etc. Of course they all are from seed so they are all different to some extent. They can also multiply buy
means of suckering quite along way.

I won't get into the Carpinus turczaninovii vs. Carpinus coreana debate. That's for the taxonomists to decide, but I've seen a lot of Carpinus coreana and some look different from each other and visa versa.

I grew mine from a 2-1/4" seedling from Evergreen Gardenworks,
Evergreen Gardenworks

It's got a nice 1 1/2" trunk and is 19" tall. I think I bought it about 5 years ago. I'll try to find a picture from last fall.

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Korean Hornbeam Forest

Post  bonsaisr on Thu Apr 19, 2012 3:36 pm

marcus watts wrote:
Is this the right place for this post though?
Questioned when I put it in Progressions.
That decision was made by the Moderators. They only want Progressions leading to an ipsy pipsy finished product. I don't blame them. I have had too many promising Progressions that ended in a dead body.
In this case, Chapter One hasn't even started yet. We are still in the Preface. As we go along, I hope to pass on what little I have learned from past experience & the new attempt.
Some comments on bare root seedlings. C. turczaninowii is classed as a hardy temperate tree, but keep in mind it is only listed (at least by some authors) for USDA Zone 7. The bare root seedlings are particularly frost sensitive and have a high mortality rate. Always keep a few extras. That night when my planting froze, most of my other trees were fine. I also lost a few miniature roses and a very tiny crape myrtle.
Another feature of some bare root seedlings (at least the ones I had) is that a large part of the trunk may actually be taproot. Most of them eventually sprouted branches where I wanted them, but a few did not. This also leads to inverse taper. I would still encourage beginners to experiment with bare root seedlings. They are cheap and a painless way to study those species. You can always pot them up individually or put them in the ground and grow them on.
Here is my forest last year. Started in 2006.



At one point I tried defoliating completely. It worked very well & I would recommend it for this species. Too many forest bonsai neglect reducing leaf size & are not convincing.
Iris



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Korean Hornbeam Forest

Post  bonsaisr on Thu Apr 19, 2012 3:52 pm

Here are the raw trees.



The first group are some prebonsai from Wee Tree Farm. To save on shipping, I had Diane unpot them & wrap the root ball in plastic, as you can see on the right. The ones on the left have been trimmed and stuck in pots.



Here, the trees on the right are 3 inch and 4 inch hornbeams from Meehan's Miniatures. The one on the left is my spare from the original group. The first few inches on the trunk is taproot & it has never backbudded. However, the trunk has thickened & this will be my #1 or #2. It needs to get taller.
Iris


Last edited by bonsaisr on Thu Apr 19, 2012 3:55 pm; edited 1 time in total (Reason for editing : Had the wrong picture.)

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Korean Hornbeam Forest

Post  bonsaisr on Fri Apr 20, 2012 3:12 am

Here is the pot. It is deeper than what is recommended for a kosher group planting pot, but the wide rim and the horizontal line minimize the depth. Also, hornbeams like water, especially in our hot dry summers. I had it because the tree it was bought for died. I hope it isn't jinxed. Ideally, the color should be more subdued. Let's hope it fades.
Pot is 14" (35.5 cm). It is from Osiga Company, a big importer of show quality classic pots from China. Headquarters in Maryland, they are at all the major American conventions.



Here is a view of the inside. It is better to wire in the trees of a group just as you would an individual tree. It is recommended to have some sort of grid in the bottom of the pot, so you can attach a wire anyplace you need it. I am using a piece of half inch hardware cloth.



Iris


Last edited by bonsaisr on Fri Apr 20, 2012 4:16 pm; edited 1 time in total (Reason for editing : Add another comment.)

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Re: Korean Hornbeam Forest

Post  Sakaki on Fri Apr 20, 2012 7:16 am

Dear Iris,

One of the styles I like most is "Forest", but I am not sure which species to work on for this style.
Your hornbeams are beautiful, but I think they are not suitable for my region due to climate conditions.
I want to have some ligustrums to try this style.
Do you think ligustrums are suitable for Forest style? Did you ever try them?
My observation is that ligustrums are growing very fast, therefore I may work on them easily!?
By the way, do you think I am late for this year? Or can I still have some to start immediately?

Thanks
Taner Tuncer

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Re: Korean Hornbeam Forest

Post  Levi on Fri Apr 20, 2012 7:31 am

Just wanted to add that when I lived in Korea, a lot of students would spell Korea "Corea". Apparently this was the original romanized spelling that was changed to the "Korea". Its a pretty complicated issue and these days has a lot to do with Korean nationalism as you can see here: http://answers.yahoo.com/question/index?qid=20070725012852AAseYNY I wonder since this was the original spelling for Korea if it also might have played a role in using a "C" in the name used for the tree.

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Re: Korean Hornbeam Forest

Post  bonsaisr on Fri Apr 20, 2012 4:18 pm

Levi wrote: I wonder since this was the original spelling for Korea if it also might have played a role in using a "C" in the name used for the tree.
No, coreana is the Latin spelling.
Iris

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korean hornbeam forest

Post  moyogijohn on Fri Apr 20, 2012 8:00 pm

MRS IRIS,, You have some great little trees to start your new forest !!!! i am sorry about the first one but you can make a better one i know !! i also like the pot you chose for it.. good luck,,take care john

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Korean Hornbeam Forest

Post  bonsaisr on Fri Apr 20, 2012 10:55 pm

Sakaki wrote:
One of the styles I like most is "Forest", but I am not sure which species to work on for this style.
Your hornbeams are beautiful, but I think they are not suitable for my region due to climate conditions.
By the way, do you think I am late for this year? Or can I still have some to start immediately?
Taner Tuncer
Why not use one of your native species that is known to be suitable for bonsai? On a Turkish forest web site I found Scots pine, Pinus sylvestris; Mediterranean cypress, Cupressus sempervirens; and indeed European hornbeam, Carpinus betulus. Just about everything I am writing here about Korean hornbeam applies to European hornbeam, except I think the European one grows faster.
According to my map of Europe, Turkey is mainly in USDA zones 8 & 9 (same as England). Here in Zone 5, I was barely within the window to repot my hornbeams yesterday, & I will have to watch them closely. You will have to think about creating your forest next February or March. Meanwhile, spend this year collecting your plants, making or buying the right soil, & finding a suitable pot.
Iris


Last edited by bonsaisr on Sat Apr 21, 2012 4:02 pm; edited 1 time in total (Reason for editing : Additional information)

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Re: Korean Hornbeam Forest

Post  Sakaki on Fri Apr 20, 2012 11:24 pm

Mrs. Iris,

Actually you are right. Not only ligustrums are suitable for my region, there are some other species as you've mentioned.
I dont know why I focus on this species to use in forest style!? Smile
I should exactly review this issue.

Thanks
Taner Tuncer

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Korean Hornbeam Forest

Post  bonsaisr on Sat Apr 21, 2012 4:11 pm

moyogijohn wrote: i also like the pot you chose for it.. good luck,,take care john
I'm glad you like the pot, but given infinite funds, I would have bought something different. I am using this pot because I already had it on hand. It is a little too deep and the wide rim is rather obtrusive. I certainly would have picked a more subdued color. However, it doesn't look bad when the tree is in full leaf. If I ever get the spectacular fall coloring that Korean hornbeam is famous for, it will make a nice contrast.
Iris

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Korean Hornbeam Forest

Post  bonsaisr on Sat Apr 21, 2012 5:21 pm

RULES
If you ever took an art class in landscape sketching, you were given several rules, mainly related to perspective. If you are Pablo Picasso, you can ignore the rules. A forest bonsai occupies three dimensions, but it still needs to be convincing.
A really good bonsai has the Holy Spirit, the Shechina, or Mana. It is a spiritual experience. When you approach a good forest bonsai, you shrink down to three inches tall and you can walk among the trees. Observe good forest bonsai by the Masters to get a feel for what you need to do. The most famous forest bonsai in the Western Hemisphere is John Naka's "Goshin." http://users.ez2.net/manning/profiles/goshin/goshin.html
It is a big museum piece, but I'm sure you can find others.
Here are some forest bonsai rules:
For "near view" bonsai, which are more common, the length of the pot is about 2/3 the height of the tallest tree.
The thicker the trunk, the taller the tree, and the farther up the trunk the lowest branch.
The larger trees are nearer the middle, but not at the center. The smallest one or two trees are all the way in the back, to look farther away.
No three trees are in a straight line.
The distances between the trees are all different.
There should be a subtle sense that the trees are facing the same way. Your eye should travel around the composition & come back to the beginning.
No tree is directly behind another.
The composition should include some negative space, a little clearing for the leprechauns.
If you are a kitsch addict like me and have to have a figurine, it must not be the first thing you see. The figurine should be toward the back, among the trees, adding a little mystery.
From three to nine, there is always an odd number of trees. Over ten, it doesn't matter because the eye stops counting.
For beginners, actual placement may be tricky. Roots get in the way & finagling is needed. Draw a diagram of where you hope to place the trees.
Here is mine for the current project.




If you must have a cookbook, go to Bonsai Masterclass by Peter Chan. It is an older book, but has diagrams for various tree groups.
Iris

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Korean Hornbeam Forest

Post  bonsaisr on Tue Apr 24, 2012 3:42 pm

Another note on the pot. In the report on the MABS Festival, there is a mature maple forest in a pot just about the color of mine. https://servimg.com/image_preview.php?i=536&u=13685485
It is less obtrusive because it doesn't have that wide rim, and the full foliage balances the color. Mine will probably look better with time.
Iris

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Re: Korean Hornbeam Forest

Post  dick benbow on Tue Apr 24, 2012 3:51 pm

always a fan....thanks Iris Smile

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Korean Hornbeam Forest

Post  bonsaisr on Tue Apr 24, 2012 4:10 pm

Here is the recently potted group. Needs tweaking.



Here is a side view.



I have three extra trees left over. Next year I may make it a seven tree group, depending on how it fills out. Even when a group planting is established, it is always wise to keep an extra specimen on hand. You never know.
Iris

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Re: Korean Hornbeam Forest

Post  Fore on Wed Apr 25, 2012 1:07 pm

Iris, plant 5 is directly behind plant 1. And 2 being so close, with only 5 plants, looks to me a bit clustered together too much. Plus they look to be to similar in spacing b/w the trees. Just my opinion of course ;-)

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Re: Korean Hornbeam Forest

Post  Benjamin on Thu Apr 26, 2012 6:47 pm

"At one point I tried defoliating completely. It worked very well & I would recommend it for this species."

I'm not sure I agree with this. I have also experimented with defoliation of C. turczaninovii and found that although it was certainly effective in reducing leaf size, it also significantly weakened the tree. Perhaps it can be done successfully on absolutely the most vigorous specimens and with careful aftercare.

Iris: I'm just curious, but had you also defoliated the one extra tree that you had left out of the forest planting that survived?

Does anyone else have experience with this?

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Korean Hornbeam Forest

Post  bonsaisr on Thu Apr 26, 2012 7:09 pm

I didn't defoliate the extra tree. I defoliated the group last May or June. There was no noticeable weakening. The planting froze last winter while I was recovering from surgery & my husband forgot to turn on the heater on a cold night.
Iris

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Re: Korean Hornbeam Forest

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