Ponderosa Pines... can they really make good bonsai?

I totally agree with Rob. PPs can make beautiful bonsai along with those caveats mentioned. I have two, but are still in their growing boxes and I have another yr or two before I can start work. But I've been told by Ryan N., Andy Smith and others here in Chicago that once you get them healthy and wired, they do back bud. So a more compact tree can be done. And there are horticultural ways to reduce the needles. But the needle length in the two pictured trees doesn't bother me at all. I think they are beautiful in their own way. Not a big believer in grafting...to me, and I've gotten into heated discussions before about this so this is just mho: If you graft on new foliage, then it's not a "true" PP anymore. Same goes for grafting shimpaku onto RMJs. Just goes against my grain even though I know alot of people do this and it makes the tree more valuable...just not to me
Chris

Thanks for your thoughts Chris... You are certainly correct in that it is all about personal preference!!

Fore wrote: But I've been told by Ryan N., Andy Smith and others here in Chicago that once you get them healthy and wired, they do back bud. So a more compact tree can be done.

I have also heard and read this for years, but I wonder why there are not any examples out there of PP with nice ramification and short needles??? With the 100's if not 1000's of PP that have been collected, and sold to hobbyist in the last couple of decades, it sure seems that these characteristics would be showing up in lots of these trees by now.

Makes me wonder if most of these comments about PP ability to bud back and ramify are more marketing and/or suspicions then not based on successful experiences....but it looks like I am beating a dead horse now!

John

Well, the probably wouldn't do well where we live, anyway, john -- at least not in the long run.

Here is how David Yedwab from USA a couple of years ago saw my ponderosas showing (normal for me) strength with candles which I had to pinch back later. Also see the three better ones of several ponderosas. And see the color. It is not photopshopped but for real, ask David. Every American seeing them cannot believe that these are ponderosas and insists that they must be some European black pine or similar. Well, they never are that green in Colorady, that's for sure.

What do I do? Just about the opposite of most: very strong watering every day, sometimes two waterings a day, very strong feeding with lots of nitrogen, full sunshine, very coarse substrate, no winter protection, full sun all day. Read Larry Jackle's book.
Why ponderosas usually don't look like this in America? My take is because folks don't do what I do.

Why does Marco Invernizzi say that ponderosas are not good for bonsai? Because they look in no way like a good Japanese black pine. This is what he answered when I sent him these photos. He said, that this just is not good enough. Well, what can I say? An American Western girl does not look like a Japanese girl in a kimono. So is that bad, not good enough? An orchid does not look like a rose. How bad is that!

Walter Pall wrote:An American Western girl does not look like a Japanese girl in a kimono. So is that bad, not good enough? An orchid does not look like a rose. How bad is that!

Best thing I've read the whole day. Diversity is good. Thanks!!!

Excellent post and beautiful trees, and great inspirations of what can be attained from PP's Walter! And sorry too, I forgot to mention your name above as you also told me the same My memory is just not as good as it used to be lol

Btw, that last tree picture looks very similar to how I styled the smaller PP I got from you and Jim. Can't wait to get it repotted into a bonsai pot ;D It's going to be one of my best trees I think if I can get it as healthy as those!

Growing Ponderosa in Europe
by Walter Pall


When I first got in touch with Ponderosa Pines in America I listened to all sorts of advice of how to take care of them. The advice I got in a nutshell: water sparingly, do not expose to rain in winter, keep very dry, feed very little, almost no nitrogene as it will cause very long needles. In more than ten years of caring intensively for more than a handful of Ponderosa Pines in my garden in Germany I can say that obviously the opposite of the general advice works much better. I can say this comparing the looks and vigor of my trees with just about all Ponderosa Pines that I see in America on may many trips. I have seen too many trees which were not in good shape at all and obviously going downhill. Most Americans coming to my garden could not believe that what they say were Ponderosa pines. They mistake them for black pines normally. So it cannot all be wrong what I am doing.

What do I do?

Water: It is correct that the Ponderosa Pine is able to survive long periods of draught, but it clearly grows much better with normal watering which compares to other pines. A prerequisite is a very well draining substrate. Then one can and even should water every day heftily. If the right soil mixture is used one can leave the pines in one location all year round, also during long rainy periods. It sometimes rains for ten days in a row where I live and the ponderosas afterwards look healthier than ever.
The chemical contents of the water don’t seem to matter. If water with a high concentration of calcium is used over extended periods of time it does not do harm to the trees but a grey film on the needles may well be the result.
Long needles are the result of a combination of much water and feeding as advised here. Therefore a ‘finished’ bonsai will finally get less water and feed. But this only after more than a decade in development.

Repotting: Collected trees can stay in the same substrate for a very long time. But this is only true if they stand in modern bonsai substrate! The soil from the natural habitat must be removed as soon as possible. Coming to think of it the main difference between my ponderosas and the ones that I see in America is that mine had to be bare rooted at import and that the American ones usually stand in the soil of their habitat surrounded by modern substrate. Afterthis original soil is removed it often is not necessary to repot for more than five years. The best time is spring. When repotting one should use the chance to remove old soil from the root ball which still might be there. Collected trees should not be root pruned for a long time. The roots should be left in the full length as the tree was collected. If necessary they can be somehow crammed in a spiral form into the container. Collected trees often have a very firm root ball which has awkward shapes. It has the shape of the pocket in the rock where the tree used to grow. Sometimes it is difficult to plant this root ball into a decent bonsai pot. The ancient roots cannot be bent without severe damage. Therefore the bonsai enthusiast is advised to first of all try to find out into what sort of container the tree will fit at all before the crown is styled. It does not make sense to style a good crown over many years, only to find out that the pine never will fit into the forseen kind of container.

Soil: The substrate must be very well draining and aeriating. It should be slightly acid to neutral, sandy with no or almost no organic content. Andy Smith recommends 70% coarse Akadama or similar plus 30 % bark mulch. Other bonsai enthusiasts work with granite gravel with added organic contents. Very good results were achieved in Central Europe with a mixture of 85% coarse pumice or lava or baked loam plus 15% rough peat. With all these substrates it is quite important to know that they contain almost no feed. It is therefore indispensable to feed a lot and often.

Cutting and pinching: As with all pines one must never cut back a branch to where no or very few needles are left. The branch will die inevitably. One can expect that a Ponderosa Pine will develop several buds on the tips, but they hardly ever bud back into old wood. Therefore one should avoid cutting off branches as far as possible and rather work with what is there and create a good crown with the existing needle whirls.
For getting shorter needles one can also practice the following method: In May with all whirls the needles are cut back to the length that one would have liked. The buds must remain intact. These buds will develop candles which have a bit shorter needles, because they get somewhat less energy from the shortened needles. The tips of the needles will look slightly ugly though for one season.
In late summer the buds for next year appear. With Ponderosa Pines these are very often the rhombical flower buds all over the tree. Flowers should be avoided. In fall the rhombs are rubbed off in such a way that the very center, which is the normal needle bud stays. On very healthy trees one can also take off the whole flower bud.

Feeding: Regular feeding throughout the vegetation period is a must. Good results are achieved with organic as well as anorganic feeds with medium to high nitrogen content. Strong feeding in fall stimulates the development of buds, even several buds on one whirl. In spring and summer slightly less feeding is appropriate to avoid too long needles. But during development of a bonsai one can well work with very high nitrogen contents in organic feed. Long needles will create a lot of energy which leads to lots of backbudding. Later, when the bonsai is ‘finished’ one can feed less.

Location: Ponderosa Pines want a lot of sunshine. A location in full sun is just right. Even in very hot and sunny summers they grow very well as long as they are watered well. In summer at temperatures of above 30°C partial half shade is required when one cannot water fully every day. When substrate is used that is not very well draining it is important to protect the tree from long rain periods. In most areas a location on a wall facing to southeast is good. The rain, which usually comes from the west will be kept away by the wall. If the recommended kind of soil mixture is used it is possible to leave the Ponderosa Pine at the spot even in long rainy periods.

Hardiness: The pine is hardy to very hardy (zone 5b). It is jeopardized by late frosts. Recently collected trees need good protection for several years before they are fully established. In winter they should be protected from permanent rain. On the other hand it is a big mistake to keep them too dry in winter.

Diseases: The Ponderosa Pine is usually free of diseases and critters as bonsai. Sometimes one finds aphids which can be removed with the fingers. One can spray with oil emulsion in late winter as preventive measure. Collected pines with much deadwood can contain bores which can become quite dangerous. Small mistle toes in the branches are not cute but reason for immediate alarm. They will kill the tree and there is no cure.

what a superb write up on pp care, it does look like a high percentage of urban folk law could have been holdng these trees' development back as bonsai. I think in the years to come the demand for mature looking bonsai material will go up and up so alternative species are bound to be used and their care will need a certain degree of pioneering and experimentation.

Very interesting comment about one artist (marco) deciding they are no good when compared to black pine.....i'd say that was partly a comment based on the snobbery that japanese trees are always best (some are, but many of course are not) and maybe his experience is limited so the comment comes from not knowing how to get the tree to respond ? This then fuels the urban legends even further.

Very nice pictures Walter, I think that catagorically shows the american PP owners what they should aim to achieve. The big problem once people see they can be good is the price will go up!

regards Marcus

We've got that damned needlecast here in IL. What a pain as I've since learned you have to treat it year round here.
Fantastic write-up that I've saved. Thanks Walter.

bonsaisr wrote:I'm afraid I have to agree with most of the objections. I have always considered Ponderosa a guy's tree, just as many would consider Serissa a veibishe (suitable for housewives) tree. There is a beautiful Ponderosa in the National Bonsai & Penjing Museum (Washington, DC). It was donated by the US Forest Service. I don't know the measurements, but it is LARGE. A museum piece, like "Guernica," not for somebody's home collection.
Iris

Are you talking about this tree Iris?

That's a nice one for sure, but not nearly in the same class as Walter's health wise. Also doesn't look like they evened out the growth on the pine very well....the top is pretty dense, but the l. lower branch is lame in comparison. But what a trunk!

Is that the "Dan Robinson" ponderosa - the one he called "Jackie Gleason Dancing" or something like that?

xuan le wrote:Are you talking about this tree Iris?

Not sure. It doesn't look familiar. I haven't been there in almost 7 years. However, the big pruning scar indicates it may have changed dramatically since I was there.
Iris

This is Dan's ponderosa as far as I remember it.

Just wanted to say thank you to Walter for the excellent write up on a truely magnificent tree, I know several old timers personal and I have several growing, so thank you very much Walter!

peter keane wrote:I love ponderosa pine trunks, but, not the foliage. too long and airy for me. I've grafted scots and japanese red pine to it with good success. I've not seen my scots shoots slow down in vigor as a result of grafting. the shoots are budding like they were on their own rootstock. I've tried mugo scions to one ponderosa. The mugos didn't survive. I'm certain that it was a matter of how I prepared the scion wood, rather than incompatibility of the two types. I'm going to be trying that one again in march of this year.

Peter, any updates on your grafting results?

My personal short answer John is a resounding YES.
Consider a couple of points with me please.
Do they grow as natural bonsai in nature? Yes.
Before the current "formalized" bonsai era larger leaves on some trees were not considered an unacceptable fault as they grew that way naturally on stunted natural trees. Look for example at the Anson Burlingame Daimyo Oak in the Oakland,CA area. You can find it online. It's a beautiful and old tree. I have a small Daimyo that I'll be developing over time. I don't mind the larger leaves/needles as long as the overall tree looks right to me.
I personally have 2 collected Ponderosas that need development but that will be good trees in time.
As for ramification you don't need quite as much with these as the longer needles take up space that extra branching would fill on a short needled tree. There still needs to be space for light to get to all the branches.

All that being said it still is a matter of personal esthetics and if they don't really "grab" you and fire your imagination maybe they just aren't the right trees for you after all. And that's just fine.

Pick your favorite.

Right between the 2nd and 3rd picture from the top.

Walter Pall wrote:Pick your favorite.

I did. Can I have it now?

Best,
Dorothy

Do you like Ponderosa pines? If yes then they make great bonsai specimens.

Do you not like them? Then maybe they are not so great.

Personally, I don't like them. The needles are too long and are they do not ramify well. As to the trunks, there are plenty of pine species with great trunks that have better needle and branching characteristics.

Though I'm reminded of a saying by the great American wit, Mark Twain, "It's a difference of opinion that makes horse races."