Palm styling

Page 1 of 2 1, 2  Next

View previous topic View next topic Go down

Palm styling

Post  Chris Cochrane on Mon Jun 22, 2009 9:19 pm

Can anyone share advice on styling/maintaining a palm (sago or others) in a tree form? In the late 19th century, it appears that some Japanese enthusiasts took advantage of low suckering, inhibited apical dominance & encouraged coarse ramification through suckers atop suckers in pots favoring Chinese-style appreciation...



_________________
... visit the U.S. National Bonsai & Penjing Museum, Washington DC USA-- http://www.bonsai-nbf.com

Chris Cochrane
Member


Back to top Go down

Re: Palm styling

Post  David Brunner on Mon Jun 22, 2009 11:10 pm

Hello Chris –

You pose a very interesting question; but first a clarification is needed. The images you posted are of the sago palm (Cycas revoluta) which is not a palm at all but a cycad. The cycads are a group of plants that arose very early in evolutionary terms and are actually sort of intermediate between ferns and conifers. The true palms came along much much later.

Cycad branching arises in two ways: from a division of the growing tip into two separate ones (dichotomous branching), or from the initiation of new adventitious buds in the cortex of the stem. Cycads don’t have the axillary buds that give rise to the branching patterns in most vascular plants. Interestingly, Cycas revoluta has a penchant for producing these adventitious buds. A classic article was published on the subject by Marie Stopes in 1910 after she visited Japan and subsequently studies and described the phenomenon. If you are interested, here is a link to the article in the journal New Phytologist: http://sciweb.nybg.org/science2/pdfs/dws/Stopes2.pdf

David Brunner

David Brunner
Member


Back to top Go down

Re: Palm styling

Post  Kev Bailey on Mon Jun 22, 2009 11:53 pm

A topic of interest to me Chris and a great reference David. I've grown C revoluta from seed and also have one that is more than 20 years old. I've tried planting it at an angle as recommended in Yoshimura's text (I think) to get it to change growth direction. I find them very slow growing and frustrating to attempt to create any style. None of mine has produced a secondary growth point, yet. So they remain fairly boring elongated pineapple like trunks with a large rosette of prickly leaves around the top.

I noted with great interest that the older ones dotted around theme parks gardens in Florida frequently have many "babies" growing attached, around the base.

_________________
“It is not the strongest of the species that survives, nor the most intelligent. It is the one that is the most adaptable to change.” - Charles Darwin.

Kev Bailey
Admin


Back to top Go down

Re: Palm styling

Post  Chris Cochrane on Tue Jun 23, 2009 2:14 am

<...Chuckle...> That is an amazing article, David. Thanks.

I looked at John Naka's Techniques II at Kevin's recommendation. John's description of the sago (cycad) seems far different-- describing Kevin's plant with few base suckers.

My sago is loaded with base suckers, and I wonder about chasing back the top growth or allowing it free rein.



_________________
... visit the U.S. National Bonsai & Penjing Museum, Washington DC USA-- http://www.bonsai-nbf.com

Chris Cochrane
Member


Back to top Go down

Re: Palm styling

Post  Billy M. Rhodes on Tue Jun 23, 2009 11:02 am

Sago Palms in Florida are being killed by an Asian scale. Although it is possible to fight the scale with strong systemics we may soon have no Sagos here. Many people are replacing Sagos with other Cycads that are not yet being attacked. However, most of the Sago alternatives don't have the other qualities of the Sago, such as moderate hardiness to cold and a lack of thorns.

On the subject of branching, when Sagos are damaged by cold they will frequently branch.

Also, Sagos are only one sex per plant, (can't trember the term, to early in the AM to look it up) and when they are stressed they will sometimes change sex. There are reports of different "heads" also having different sex.

Billy M. Rhodes
Member


Back to top Go down

Re: Palm styling

Post  Chris Cochrane on Tue Jun 23, 2009 5:14 pm

Hi Billy... Thanks for the considerable information!

You note, "... when Sagos are damaged by cold they will frequently branch." By branching, do you mean:
1. suckering (perhaps that is not accurate as it is appears on the trunk rather than roots) near the base,
2. dividing at an apical tip,
3. sprouting adventitious buds somewhere other than near the plant's base or
4. other (please explain... & thanks!).

After very severe drought (many weeks of no water), the plant above eventually sprouted near-base growth. Its former caretaker had been hospitalized & no one had cared for the "office plant." It looked dying for weeks after watering resumed. Eventually, it appeared absolutely dead and remained so for days. Then, ... resurrection!

_________________
... visit the U.S. National Bonsai & Penjing Museum, Washington DC USA-- http://www.bonsai-nbf.com

Chris Cochrane
Member


Back to top Go down

Re: Palm styling

Post  Billy M. Rhodes on Tue Jun 23, 2009 5:38 pm

1. suckering (perhaps that is not accurate as it is appears on the trunk rather than roots) near the base,
2. dividing at an apical tip,
3. sprouting adventitious buds somewhere other than near the plant's base or
4. other (please explain... & thanks!).

All of the above. There was a nursery in Rockledge, FL that had some very large specimens with all of the above true. They had probably been Urban Yamidori. (Landscape specimens that became too large for their location. That happens a lot in Florida. My favorite is cute little Italian Cypress plant so close to a house that they are under the overhang, or aborvite planted close to the sidewalk on both sides of the front door.)

Billy M. Rhodes
Member


Back to top Go down

Re: Palm styling

Post  Nik Rozman on Tue Jun 23, 2009 5:49 pm

Here's a nice palm bonsai exemple for you all. It's from the Crespi bonsai center in Milano, Italy:

Nik Rozman
Member


Back to top Go down

Re: Palm styling

Post  Billy M. Rhodes on Tue Jun 23, 2009 6:24 pm

The plant above is also a Cycad rather than a palm.

Billy M. Rhodes
Member


Back to top Go down

Re: Palm styling

Post  Mo Acha on Fri Jun 26, 2009 4:20 am

I found this thread interesting and timely because I just put together a little trio of segos with space to grow and was not aware that "kids" pop up. This is one of my latest fun projects of insti-bonsai for under $15, in under an hour, no wiring that I have done recently. I have about five of these fun little cheapies of various kinds, pre-bonsai if you will, with the future in mind. I take odd directions on a whim sometimes...hey can't beat the price! Very Happy


Mo Acha
Member


Back to top Go down

Re: Palm styling

Post  Chris Cochrane on Fri Jun 26, 2009 3:25 pm

Is that a stone planted with the 3 sago cycads, Mo Acha?

My considerable surprise in repotting a sago was the absence of fine roots. Do they not establish fine roots?

_________________
... visit the U.S. National Bonsai & Penjing Museum, Washington DC USA-- http://www.bonsai-nbf.com

Chris Cochrane
Member


Back to top Go down

Re: Palm styling

Post  Kev Bailey on Fri Jun 26, 2009 5:22 pm

If they are growing healthily they develop white, fleshy, quite thick roots with a few finer ones. They also have unusual surface roots that have colonies of blue-green algae synthesising nitrogen for the plant. This allows it to grow on poor soils. Encourage these surface roots with a mulch and the cycad often grows more rapidly and appears healthier.

_________________
“It is not the strongest of the species that survives, nor the most intelligent. It is the one that is the most adaptable to change.” - Charles Darwin.

Kev Bailey
Admin


Back to top Go down

Re: Palm styling

Post  Mo Acha on Sat Jun 27, 2009 1:28 am


"Is that a stone planted with the 3 sago cycads, Mo Acha? "


Chris, It is a stone I found in Hawaii in 09 as is. Depending on the light, it can look like a sitting elephant, a monkey holding his mouth, a lucky cat, or?

Kev, the roots are as you said which surprised me but it shouldn't, I had a 45 ft royal palm removed from my front yard and it had similar type white earth worm roots (but thicker).

Mo Acha



Last edited by Mo Acha on Sat Jun 27, 2009 1:36 am; edited 1 time in total

Mo Acha
Member


Back to top Go down

Re: Palm styling

Post  prestontolbert on Sat Jun 27, 2009 1:35 am

It looks like three sagos and their ancient petrified grandad. Laughing

prestontolbert
Member


Back to top Go down

Re: Palm styling

Post  Chris Cochrane on Sat Jun 27, 2009 2:01 am

Hi Kev... Are you using mulch (organic, such as pine bark soil conditioner) on top of bonsai soil to encourage the algae or using a less free-draining soil?

My local box store sells sago in a variety of sizes. The smallest appears to be in an organic nursery soil mix, a variety of mid-size sago are buried in pebbles above the soil in clay containers (some plain, others decorative). The largest (selling for $149.00 US) are in deep plastic nursery containers with nursery soil. None have pups. The largest have new fronds (so tight as to look like green sticks) beginning to form at their center-top with substantial foliage distributed slightly below. None had foliage distant from the plants' tops.

Oh, Mo! Haven't you heard of the curse visited upon those removing stones from Hawaii. This one looks extremely virulent-- an ancient expansive lava god who could easily erupt. Perhaps, the cycads will appease him... :-)

_________________
... visit the U.S. National Bonsai & Penjing Museum, Washington DC USA-- http://www.bonsai-nbf.com

Chris Cochrane
Member


Back to top Go down

Re: Palm styling

Post  Mo Acha on Sat Jun 27, 2009 2:10 am

"Oh, Mo! Haven't you heard of the curse visited upon those removing stones from Hawaii. This one looks extremely virulent-- an ancient expansive lava god who could easily erupt. Perhaps, the cycads will appease him... :-)"

I love to hear that...because now I have an excuse to go back to Hawaii...SOON Very Happy

Mo Acha

Mo Acha
Member


Back to top Go down

Re: Palm styling

Post  Kev Bailey on Sat Jun 27, 2009 8:59 am

Chris, mine is not yet in a bonsai mix. I've used composted bark, peat and grit combined with regular damping and only occasional thorough watering in summer.

_________________
“It is not the strongest of the species that survives, nor the most intelligent. It is the one that is the most adaptable to change.” - Charles Darwin.

Kev Bailey
Admin


Back to top Go down

Re: Palm styling

Post  Garykk on Sat Jun 27, 2009 1:42 pm

Mo Acha wrote:"Oh, Mo! Haven't you heard of the curse visited upon those removing stones from Hawaii. This one looks extremely virulent-- an ancient expansive lava god who could easily erupt. Perhaps, the cycads will appease him... :-)"

I love to hear that...because now I have an excuse to go back to Hawaii...SOON Very Happy

Mo Acha

Lol's, I was thinking the same thing. If one removes the virulent stone from its resting spot, a flamboyant swordsman shall appear with a remedy for the situation. Remember, don't use your whip to defend yourself....just shoot him.

__gary

Garykk
Member


Back to top Go down

Re: Palm styling

Post  David Brunner on Sat Jun 27, 2009 9:56 pm

Chris - you are full of interesting questions... Your surprise regarding your cycads roots at repotting is, well, not surprising. Given that this is a group of plants that evolved well before the flowering plants (the sort we are most used to working with in bonsai), many of the "standard features" we are used to, like fibrous root systems, are absent. Cycads roots are indeed fascinating. Kev rightly points out that they can harbor cyanobacteria in a symbiotic relationship to fix nitrogen. This occurs in a special type of root, called coralloid roots, that generally make up about 5% of so of the root mass. Another interesting thing about cycad roots is that many are contractile - meaning that they shorten as they mature and draw the body of the plant deeper into the soil. This is an adaptation to protect the growing point from desiccation and fire. This phenomenon in not pronounced in Cycas revoluta and it is unlikely that you would notice it in bonsai culture anyway since because of the restrictions of the pot; however, don't expect your cycad to develop a "fine nebari."

Your little sago is looking good. It is likely that the growth from the main growing point will continue to be much larger than on the adventitious shoots for a very long time. If you want balanced growth, you can cut out this apical bud. However, if it were my, I would not. I rather like bonsai that is reflective of the natural growth habits of its species.

Thanks for the fun!
David Brunner

David Brunner
Member


Back to top Go down

Re: Palm styling

Post  Kev Bailey on Sun Aug 02, 2009 11:58 am

A side note, as we currently have a thread that is featuring many of our beloved canines. Keep dogs and children away from all Cycads as plants of this genus contain cycasin and a compound called neocycasin. Both are cyanogenic glycosides, which means they consist of a sugar molecule bound to another molecule that contains a cyanide group. If these toxins are ingested, enzymes in the body break them down, releasing the cyanide. It's not unknown for dogs to chew the roots and the colourful seeds could attract children to play with them or eat them.

_________________
“It is not the strongest of the species that survives, nor the most intelligent. It is the one that is the most adaptable to change.” - Charles Darwin.

Kev Bailey
Admin


Back to top Go down

Re: Palm styling

Post  rock on Wed Aug 19, 2009 11:29 pm

Howdy all cycad lovers just wanted to show you a little bit of an oddity. I've been growing say goes for almost 20 years, and I finally got some mature enough to do some seed producing. I've had several females with a female blossoms, but never have a mail cone bloom. While this year I had one female and two males,did a little research online for the proper time when I should get the two together and voilà. Hopefully we will have fertile seeds this year.

Photo of some of my sagos in my front yard and the second is the crazy lovers making fertile seeds.[img][/img]

rock
Member


Back to top Go down

Re: Palm styling

Post  rock on Wed Aug 19, 2009 11:31 pm

second photo[img][/img]

rock
Member


Back to top Go down

Re: Palm styling

Post  Kev Bailey on Thu Aug 20, 2009 9:06 am

Excellent shots. I too did a little research and was surprised. I always thought that being relics of the dinosaur era, like the Ginkgo, they had motile sperm. Apparently they don't. The pollen is carried by wind or insects from male cone to female flower. Did you give the males a good shake over the female?

I hope you eventually get lots of good viable seed produced.

_________________
“It is not the strongest of the species that survives, nor the most intelligent. It is the one that is the most adaptable to change.” - Charles Darwin.

Kev Bailey
Admin


Back to top Go down

Cycad at the Botanical Gardens in Palermo, Italy

Post  mountainrunner on Tue Aug 25, 2009 5:29 pm

I just noticed this great thread, and thought I'd share a photo of a cycad that I took while on vacation last year. It was growing in the Botanical Gardens in Palermo, Italy. My understanding is that many of the older specimens were introduced to Sicily by the Arabs. They are truly impressive trees.


mountainrunner
Member


Back to top Go down

Re: Palm styling

Post  rock on Tue Aug 25, 2009 10:12 pm

Kev Bailey wrote: . Did you give the males a good shake over the female?

.

Thanks much Kev...uh actually not sure what they did, they requested privacy,

all I know is the two males look rather ..uh ...shall we say ...spent.

Embarassed

rock
Member


Back to top Go down

Re: Palm styling

Post  Sponsored content Today at 7:47 pm


Sponsored content


Back to top Go down

Page 1 of 2 1, 2  Next

View previous topic View next topic Back to top


 
Permissions in this forum:
You cannot reply to topics in this forum