Maples bonsai from seeds

Hi anh Giang,

I hope you have been well. I found your info very useful; especially garlic tea for white pine seedlings and home oven sterilisation.

Are a botanist?

I have a basic understanding of green house etc for seedlings. Would you be able to explain more on "controlled condition" you apply for white pine seedlings, please?

In Australia, it is virtually impossible to buy black pine and white pine seeds. I have my own black pine which already produces good cones. And I am preparing to ground a matured white pine for seeds as well. Hopefully in a few years I can apply your techniques on white pine seedlings

Thank you and best regards.

Chao ban,
The tree propagation by seedling, cuttings, grafting...depends on many parameters, that we can control such as the light, humidity, heat, air circulation...to reduce the development of micro organisms and to provide good condition for the growth of the plants.

Here is a propagation prototype box, that I developed to provide suitable condition for seedling and cuttlings. This is a simple box made of wooden boards 1,4 x0.4x0.5m with 2 neon light tubes (1 in the bottom to provide the heat, the lighting is control by a timer and one on the top for the photosynthesis).





Propagation box

Small greenhouses are made of food plastic boxes covered by clear plastic bags to maintain the humidity.

The whole structure provides an early tropical spring condition to activate proteins, that control the germination or the rooting mecanism. I used to use it to propagate by cuttlings for many conifers species like the Junpirus sinensis or the Podocarpus 'maki' in December and to propagate trees by seedling after March.

After the germination or the rooting, young trees stay in another propagation box with the same condition to get a strong root system before being planted in individual pots for the growth.

In this way we can improve highly the rate of the propagation.

Propagation of Serissa bu cuttlings

Propagation of Sageretia


Propagation of White pines


Propagation of Acer palmatum varieties such as Deshojo, Seigen...

Regards,
Giang
___________________
www.lotus-bonsai.com

Hi Giant,
Very good culture! It is very interesting, thank you for showing us your technic.

Thank you for all of your valuable information pertaining to raising maple seed.
Will help me with future endevours.

Thanks for a detailed and helpful post. I am just wanting to clarify though, for the stratification of seeds, you use horticultural charcoal. Is this just crushed up? if so do you sieve it and use a particular size eg no fines/dust? Also the garlic tea, how do you make this, and what strength do you dilute it to?

Thanks again,
Luke

Hi Luke,

I just reduce the barbecue wood charcoal into small pieces from 5mm to fine particules. Then I use this fine dust to envelop the hydrated seeds, and the rest I put with peat moss or sphagnum moss.

For the tea garlic, I crush 5 or 6 fresh garlic clovers, then I put it in a water bottle with 1 L of fresh water. I put this botle into the sunlight for 2 days, I then I use it directly to water the seedlings without dilution.

Regards,
Giang

giangus wrote:Hi Luke,

I just reduce the barbecue wood charcoal into small pieces from 5mm to fine particules. Then I use this fine dust to envelop the hydrated seeds, and the rest I put with peat moss or sphagnum moss.

For the tea garlic, I crush 5 or 6 fresh garlic clovers, then I put it in a water bottle with 1 L of fresh water. I put this botle into the sunlight for 2 days, I then I use it directly to water the seedlings without dilution.

Regards,
Giang

Thankyou so much. Would "horticultural" charcoal be better to use than BBQ wood charcoal? I dont know what the difference is, but I have seen it in my local hardware and gardening store next to the specialist potting mixes.
Thanks
Luke

I had a look at the horticultural charcoal to see if it mentioned anything about it being different or better than plain old BBQ charcoal, but I couldn't find anything on the packaging that mentioned this. The staff at the hardware store weren't any help either. It is $28 a bag of the horticultural charcoal whereas the BBQ charcoal is less than $10 for the same size bag!! Unless anyone has any info regarding the difference between the two, I will probably be a cheap skate and buy the BBQ charcoal.

Hi Luke,
For more than 22 years, I have been using BBQ wood charcoal for the tree plantation, from seeds to pre-bonsai trees. The generation of my grand parents used to use also the wood charcoal for their bonsai trees. Here, in Europe, most of professional propagation nurseries dont use charcoal. They use directly chemical to treat the soil.


The maple seedlings are coming out of this week. For the medium, I used 1/2 peatmoss and 1/2 BBQ charcoal reduced into small pieces.
regards,
giang

Thanks for your great information

A few more questions if I may please......
I was wondering though about the sphagnum moss and peat moss you use. You said you use sphagnum moss and charcoal, oven treated, then in the fridge for the stratifying process. And then you use peat moss and charcoal, oven treated, when you plant out seeds post stratifying. Is that correct? Can I use peat moss and charcoal for both the stratifying and the post germination? Are sphagnum and peat interchangeable (ie use either with the charcoal)

Also I noticed one of your post germination pics of white pines in controlled conditions for 8wks are in sphagnum moss, why is this? did you not have peat at the time, or are white pines different to maples?

Also can you confirm that you stratify your white pine, and black pine? I have some black pine seedlings, but I just planted them outside and they germinated (no over-wintering at all). I have been lucky enough to source some more JBP seeds, and a couple of JWP, but I want to ensure I have a high germination rate. So would you to recommend soak, then stratify as per maple seed?

Thanks very much for taking the time to document your process. You have helped many.

maples, pines, piece of cake to start from seeds, wish i knew the secret to hornbeam. can plant a full anderson pot and might get one or two starts if lucky. anyone know any secrets?

Hi,
The medium (peat + charcoal) that I used for the stratification, was also used later for the post germination. Then, when the pair of cotyledon gets dry, (the cotyledons are the nutritive reserve for the seedlings, only evoluated plants have), the first real pair of leave grows up, at this stage, the plant needs a light fertilization for its development as the medium (peat moss + charcoal) has no nutriment. Later, when the 2nd pair of leaves develops, I put the plant in individual pot for the root system to develop. At this stage, you can use any horticol soil for the plantation.

Most of pine species, after the germination phase, are affected by fungus . By keeping them, in controlled conditions (heat, light, humidity, clean substrat) will allow us having a high rate of seedlings later, specially the white pines, are extremely fragil. Most of the time, we graft them with the black pines.

The hydratation, stratification and germination are similar for most of species from the temperate climate. But we should prepare the seeds as clean as possible to avoid the proliferation of micro organisms.


The temperate climate seeds need a cold period to activate the proteins, that control the germination. For expemle, apple seeds or pears can be seen germinated directly without the stratification. But most of the fruits, that we eat, are kept in cold temperature to maintain their freshness. It's the same way for seeds that we buy from wholesalers, most of them are kept between 2 and 5°C to keep the embryo alive.
After a period of time, with a bit of humidity, the seeds as u have observed germinate automatically.


The hydratation and stratification help us increase the rate of germination.


The Carpinus (horbean) seeds are difficult to get germinated. The seeds must be fresh, usually, forest nurseries get provided the fresh seeds in fall. Then the stratify between 5 to 12 months before the germination.
The horbean seeds that we get at the retailers, are usally not fresh anymore, and the germination is low. It's the same way the Nothofagus alpina, Nandina domestica...etc.


regards,
giang

giangus wrote:
Hi,
The medium (peat + charcoal) that I used for the stratification, was also used later for the post germination.
regards,
giang

Hi I am a little confused as you said earlier in this thread

giangus wrote: Hi Jay,
For the stratification base, I use 1/2 Sphagnum moss + 1/2 charcoal broken into small pieces. I also use 1/2 sand + 1/2 charcoal. But everything must be heated for 200°C for 20min in the home oven. We can't prevent the development of micro organisms, because their spores are constantly in the air, but can limit its proliferation.

Giang

Is sphagnum and charcoal okay to use for stratification?
Regards,
Luke

giangus wrote:Ah! to rehydrate the seeds from the tropical and some seeds from the subtropical area, like the Ficus religiosa, I use warm water 20 to 28°C from 48h to 72h. This category of seeds doesn't need a cold period to activate the proteins, which controls the germanination process.

The seeds from the temperate zone, such as the pines, apples, zelkova...seeds, I use cold water. I rehydrate the seeds in the fridge from 48h to 72h. In this way, I can accelerate a bit the time of the stratification.

Giang

I got a question for you. I have a charcoal bottle that I've purchased in amazon.com. actually i use the powdered charcoal for drawing because it's for it and the brand is General's and it's made from cedar wood, Can this work for?

Hi alex,
I use wood charcoal for bbq. Generally, wood charcoal has an antiseptic propriety for horticulture.

Hi Luke,
I often use sphagnum moss or peatmoss plus charcoal for the stratification.



Back pines, June 2012

regards
giang

www.lotus-bonsai.com

Congratulations
I enjoyed the seeding of acer. NOrmally I use airlayering to reproduce new plants, I am not being successfull on cuttings
thks
fox

Dear Giangus~~~

Your growing from seed process is amazing. I will try it with my next batch of seeds. I collect my seeds in the fall and sell most of them but keep some to sprout myself. I have had my seeds in my refrigerator stratifying for a long time now. I have a group of Beni kawa seeds that have sprouted and are growing nicely now but they were in my refrigerator for over a year. My seeds from last fall are still in my refrigerator as they nice & fat but have not yet sprouted. I have opened a few of them and they have nice green embryos inside, so I know they are still alive. Do you have any suggestions?

Georgette

Great read, I to have always enjoyed growing material from seed and have found it to be very rewarding and a good lesson in patience lol. I will be prepping my seeds for next year soon and may give the charcoal a try, I generally use a mix of 3/4 sand to 1/3 peat or spagnum moss but the charcoal could easily be worked in. I am also excited to try the cold water soak, as I too have always done the warm water over night soak and have always had ok germination rates, so I am interested to see if this has any effect on my numbers. I think I saw that you had some Zelkova growing, at what point do are you removing them from cover and placing them into more direct or natural sunlight? I have a few I have grown from seed over the last 2 years but no matter how slowly I introduce them to the light it seems once they leave my greenhouse for more than a day they are toast. Thanks again for the info.

Hi Georgette,
Usually, seeds, after being collected, i store them into the fridge between 3 and 5°C to keep the freshness of the embryo. Professional providers do the same way to keep alive the seeds.

Without hydratation, we can keep this way the seeds for years. But the germination rate is descreasing with time.


Acer palmatum cuttlings July 2012, propagation time 3 weeks, rooting rate , 85%


Acer palmatum seedlings, July 2012, germination rate 40%.
There is a huge difference between propagation by cuttings and sedlings, in term of growth. Small trees from seeds are quicker growers.

@Steven,
Generally, for seedlings, when they have 2 pairs of leaves, i take them out into the sunlight, just in the morning, till noon time. Then in the afternoon, they are in the shade. It's the same way for pine trees.

Zelkova propagation by cuttings.

trident maple cuttings
[
Acer in individual pots.
[url=https://servimg.com/view/16779359/443]
Zelkova serrata and Zelkova sinensis

a corner of maples

mountain pines

giang
www.lotus-bonsai.com

Hi, can you confirm the maples germinated during the stratification process? (ie while in the fridge). I'm in Australia and have some seeds in the fridge at the moment but am not used to maples (they are not native to Australia) and would appreciate some advice?

Cheers

Great pieces of information, giangus!
Thank you very very much!
I see that you are so kind and willing as to answer everybody's questions, so I would kindly ask you one of mine : Do you have any special info about Japanese larch or larix kaempferi. I have tried with these seeds this year and only one seed germinated but after some days the seedling died.

sandpit67 wrote:Hi, can you confirm the maples germinated during the stratification process? (ie while in the fridge). I'm in Australia and have some seeds in the fridge at the moment but am not used to maples (they are not native to Australia) and would appreciate some advice?

Cheers

Hi,
During the stratification phase, we observe seed germination from maple to apple seeds. It's also the time to take the seeds out of the fridge and get them germinated in normal spring condition.

The Acer palmatum , a tree from temperate climat and needs a cold period in winter to get a rest, in sub tropical and tropical weather, the malpes dont live for long time.

@nellie,
The Japanese larch, with a viable quality seeds from professional providers, we obtain from 40 to 60% germinated seeds. The seedlings are sensitive to fungus that usually dries out the base of the plant. This fungus affects generally apple, elm, conifer seedlings. That is why we need to treat the stratification and germination soil by chemical or by heat (30min in the home owen at 200°C)

For the pine and larch seedlings, i use the 'garlic tea' to treat the substrate and to water the young plants till their stem get stronger, usually after 2 months.





I obtained those trees Larix kaempferi from seeds.

giang,
www.lotus-bonsai.com

Thank you so very much!

[quote="giangus"]

sandpit67 wrote:

For the pine and larch seedlings, i use the 'garlic tea' to treat the substrate and to water the young plants till their stem get stronger, usually after 2 months.

Dear Giang,

Thank you for a fascinating post. Can you confirm how you make your garlic tea?

Thanks,

Andrew

Hi Andrew,
I press fresh glove garlic (2 or 3 pieces) in a bottle of tap water (1litter). Then, i leave this water bottle with garlic into the sunlight for 24h, after that i use and water the seedlings till their stem get stronger specially for pine trees (red colour or brown on their stem). For green leave trees i water them till 2 pair of leaves (Acer, Ulmus, Malus, Prunus).

You can keep this garlic tea for a week, then you make a new one, otherwise, it smells so strong for your neighbors, when you live in downtown.

Every year, I use garlic tea for pine seedlings, my yearly pine production is about 1500 trees from seeds, at this scale, i dont use any chemical to treat the seeds and the substrate.


Pinus pentaphylla, August 2012, the white pines are not resistant from seeds, professionals prefer grating them with the P. thunbergii to form pre bonsai and bonsai later.


3 years old Pinus uncinata, the high moutain pines, strong and low growth with short needles. I mainly produce them to create bonsai -penjing composition.

giang