Maples bonsai from seeds

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Re: Maples bonsai from seeds

Post  dick benbow on Sat Apr 21, 2012 11:20 pm

maples, pines, piece of cake to start from seeds, wish i knew the secret to hornbeam. can plant a full anderson pot and might get one or two starts if lucky. anyone know any secrets?

Sad

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Re: Maples bonsai from seeds

Post  giangus on Sun Apr 22, 2012 11:21 am


Hi,
The medium (peat + charcoal) that I used for the stratification, was also used later for the post germination. Then, when the pair of cotyledon gets dry, (the cotyledons are the nutritive reserve for the seedlings, only evoluated plants have), the first real pair of leave grows up, at this stage, the plant needs a light fertilization for its development as the medium (peat moss + charcoal) has no nutriment. Later, when the 2nd pair of leaves develops, I put the plant in individual pot for the root system to develop. At this stage, you can use any horticol soil for the plantation.

Most of pine species, after the germination phase, are affected by fungus . By keeping them, in controlled conditions (heat, light, humidity, clean substrat) will allow us having a high rate of seedlings later, specially the white pines, are extremely fragil. Most of the time, we graft them with the black pines.

The hydratation, stratification and germination are similar for most of species from the temperate climate. But we should prepare the seeds as clean as possible to avoid the proliferation of micro organisms.


The temperate climate seeds need a cold period to activate the proteins, that control the germination. For expemle, apple seeds or pears can be seen germinated directly without the stratification. But most of the fruits, that we eat, are kept in cold temperature to maintain their freshness. It's the same way for seeds that we buy from wholesalers, most of them are kept between 2 and 5°C to keep the embryo alive.
After a period of time, with a bit of humidity, the seeds as u have observed germinate automatically.


The hydratation and stratification help us increase the rate of germination.


The Carpinus (horbean) seeds are difficult to get germinated. The seeds must be fresh, usually, forest nurseries get provided the fresh seeds in fall. Then the stratify between 5 to 12 months before the germination.
The horbean seeds that we get at the retailers, are usally not fresh anymore, and the germination is low. It's the same way the Nothofagus alpina, Nandina domestica...etc.


regards,
giang



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Re: Maples bonsai from seeds

Post  luke308 on Sun Apr 22, 2012 10:15 pm

giangus wrote:
Hi,
The medium (peat + charcoal) that I used for the stratification, was also used later for the post germination.
regards,
giang


Hi I am a little confused as you said earlier in this thread
giangus wrote: Hi Jay,
For the stratification base, I use 1/2 Sphagnum moss + 1/2 charcoal broken into small pieces. I also use 1/2 sand + 1/2 charcoal. But everything must be heated for 200°C for 20min in the home oven. We can't prevent the development of micro organisms, because their spores are constantly in the air, but can limit its proliferation.

Giang

Is sphagnum and charcoal okay to use for stratification?
Regards,
Luke

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Re: Maples bonsai from seeds

Post  alexcostacurta on Sun Jul 15, 2012 4:51 am

giangus wrote:Ah! to rehydrate the seeds from the tropical and some seeds from the subtropical area, like the Ficus religiosa, I use warm water 20 to 28°C from 48h to 72h. This category of seeds doesn't need a cold period to activate the proteins, which controls the germanination process.

The seeds from the temperate zone, such as the pines, apples, zelkova...seeds, I use cold water. I rehydrate the seeds in the fridge from 48h to 72h. In this way, I can accelerate a bit the time of the stratification.

Giang



I got a question for you. I have a charcoal bottle that I've purchased in amazon.com. actually i use the powdered charcoal for drawing because it's for it and the brand is General's and it's made from cedar wood, Can this work for?

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Re: Maples bonsai from seeds

Post  giangus on Mon Jul 16, 2012 9:57 pm

Hi alex,
I use wood charcoal for bbq. Generally, wood charcoal has an antiseptic propriety for horticulture.

Hi Luke,
I often use sphagnum moss or peatmoss plus charcoal for the stratification.



Back pines, June 2012

regards
giang

www.lotus-bonsai.com

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Re: Maples bonsai from seeds

Post  Fox CWB on Thu Jul 19, 2012 12:00 am

Congratulations
I enjoyed the seeding of acer. NOrmally I use airlayering to reproduce new plants, I am not being successfull on cuttings
thks
fox

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May I ask Giangus

Post  Georgette on Sun Jul 22, 2012 1:38 am

Dear Giangus~~~

Your growing from seed process is amazing. I will try it with my next batch of seeds. I collect my seeds in the fall and sell most of them but keep some to sprout myself. I have had my seeds in my refrigerator stratifying for a long time now. I have a group of Beni kawa seeds that have sprouted and are growing nicely now but they were in my refrigerator for over a year. My seeds from last fall are still in my refrigerator as they nice & fat but have not yet sprouted. I have opened a few of them and they have nice green embryos inside, so I know they are still alive. Do you have any suggestions?

Georgette

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Re: Maples bonsai from seeds

Post  Steven on Sun Jul 22, 2012 2:11 am

Great read, I to have always enjoyed growing material from seed and have found it to be very rewarding and a good lesson in patience lol. I will be prepping my seeds for next year soon and may give the charcoal a try, I generally use a mix of 3/4 sand to 1/3 peat or spagnum moss but the charcoal could easily be worked in. I am also excited to try the cold water soak, as I too have always done the warm water over night soak and have always had ok germination rates, so I am interested to see if this has any effect on my numbers. I think I saw that you had some Zelkova growing, at what point do are you removing them from cover and placing them into more direct or natural sunlight? I have a few I have grown from seed over the last 2 years but no matter how slowly I introduce them to the light it seems once they leave my greenhouse for more than a day they are toast. Thanks again for the info.

Steven
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Re: Maples bonsai from seeds

Post  giangus on Sat Jul 28, 2012 5:25 pm

Hi Georgette,
Usually, seeds, after being collected, i store them into the fridge between 3 and 5°C to keep the freshness of the embryo. Professional providers do the same way to keep alive the seeds.

Without hydratation, we can keep this way the seeds for years. But the germination rate is descreasing with time.


Acer palmatum cuttlings July 2012, propagation time 3 weeks, rooting rate , 85%


Acer palmatum seedlings, July 2012, germination rate 40%.
There is a huge difference between propagation by cuttings and sedlings, in term of growth. Small trees from seeds are quicker growers.

@Steven,
Generally, for seedlings, when they have 2 pairs of leaves, i take them out into the sunlight, just in the morning, till noon time. Then in the afternoon, they are in the shade. It's the same way for pine trees.

Zelkova propagation by cuttings.

trident maple cuttings
[
Acer in individual pots.
[url=https://servimg.com/image_preview.php?i=443&u=16779359]
Zelkova serrata and Zelkova sinensis

a corner of maples

mountain pines

giang
www.lotus-bonsai.com

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Stratification of Maples

Post  sandpit67 on Wed Aug 01, 2012 7:28 am

Hi, can you confirm the maples germinated during the stratification process? (ie while in the fridge). I'm in Australia and have some seeds in the fridge at the moment but am not used to maples (they are not native to Australia) and would appreciate some advice?

Cheers

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Re: Maples bonsai from seeds

Post  my nellie on Wed Aug 01, 2012 10:39 am

Great pieces of information, giangus!
Thank you very very much!
I see that you are so kind and willing as to answer everybody's questions, so I would kindly ask you one of mine : Do you have any special info about Japanese larch or larix kaempferi. I have tried with these seeds this year and only one seed germinated but after some days the seedling died.

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Re: Maples bonsai from seeds

Post  giangus on Thu Aug 02, 2012 6:40 am

sandpit67 wrote:Hi, can you confirm the maples germinated during the stratification process? (ie while in the fridge). I'm in Australia and have some seeds in the fridge at the moment but am not used to maples (they are not native to Australia) and would appreciate some advice?

Cheers

Hi,
During the stratification phase, we observe seed germination from maple to apple seeds. It's also the time to take the seeds out of the fridge and get them germinated in normal spring condition.

The Acer palmatum , a tree from temperate climat and needs a cold period in winter to get a rest, in sub tropical and tropical weather, the malpes dont live for long time.

@nellie,
The Japanese larch, with a viable quality seeds from professional providers, we obtain from 40 to 60% germinated seeds. The seedlings are sensitive to fungus that usually dries out the base of the plant. This fungus affects generally apple, elm, conifer seedlings. That is why we need to treat the stratification and germination soil by chemical or by heat (30min in the home owen at 200°C)

For the pine and larch seedlings, i use the 'garlic tea' to treat the substrate and to water the young plants till their stem get stronger, usually after 2 months.





I obtained those trees Larix kaempferi from seeds.

giang,
www.lotus-bonsai.com

giangus
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Re: Maples bonsai from seeds

Post  my nellie on Thu Aug 02, 2012 10:17 am

Thank you so very much!

my nellie
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Re: Maples bonsai from seeds

Post  Andrew Legg on Wed Aug 15, 2012 3:54 pm

[quote="giangus"]
sandpit67 wrote:

For the pine and larch seedlings, i use the 'garlic tea' to treat the substrate and to water the young plants till their stem get stronger, usually after 2 months.


Dear Giang,

Thank you for a fascinating post. Can you confirm how you make your garlic tea?

Thanks,

Andrew

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Re: Maples bonsai from seeds

Post  giangus on Wed Aug 15, 2012 4:36 pm

Hi Andrew,
I press fresh glove garlic (2 or 3 pieces) in a bottle of tap water (1litter). Then, i leave this water bottle with garlic into the sunlight for 24h, after that i use and water the seedlings till their stem get stronger specially for pine trees (red colour or brown on their stem). For green leave trees i water them till 2 pair of leaves (Acer, Ulmus, Malus, Prunus).

You can keep this garlic tea for a week, then you make a new one, otherwise, it smells so strong for your neighbors, when you live in downtown.

Every year, I use garlic tea for pine seedlings, my yearly pine production is about 1500 trees from seeds, at this scale, i dont use any chemical to treat the seeds and the substrate.


Pinus pentaphylla, August 2012, the white pines are not resistant from seeds, professionals prefer grating them with the P. thunbergii to form pre bonsai and bonsai later.


3 years old Pinus uncinata, the high moutain pines, strong and low growth with short needles. I mainly produce them to create bonsai -penjing composition.

giang


Last edited by giangus on Thu Aug 16, 2012 7:19 pm; edited 1 time in total

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Re: Maples bonsai from seeds

Post  Andrew Legg on Thu Aug 16, 2012 11:04 am

Thank you Giang,

I made some Garlic Tea last night, and just my luck, the garlic crusher breaks. Now I'm in trouble with my wife for breaking her kitchen things on my bonsai! Laughing

I am growing trident maple seeds from a parent tree here. I am growing in a 50/50 vermiculite/river sand mix, and the seedlings are just starting to sprout. I planted about 100 and the first three have popped. cheers I don't know if I'm imagining it, but there seems to be a problem. Of the three that have popped, one has discarded the seed husk, and the other two not yet, but they seem to be going a little bit of a light grey colour in the bend just below the seed husk. Lower down where the stem meets the growing mix, they are a nice vibrant green. Is this grey colour caused by excessive moisture, or some form of fungus or bacteria? I have heard of something called "wetting off" of seedlings. I guess the question is whether I should be watering with the garlic solution or just letting the whole tray dry out a bit? After picking the seeds from the tree, they stood in a bowl in my kitchen for a month or two. I then prepared the mix, soaked them overnight in what was initially water that would have been a bit warmer than luke warm, but not scolding to the touch. The seeds soaked for 24hrs and then were placed in the mix and covered with a layer of about 3mm. Not very scientific, but they seem to be responding now (although not that well pale )!

Regards,

Andrew

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Re: Maples bonsai from seeds

Post  rock on Thu Aug 16, 2012 1:52 pm

giangus wrote: my yearly pine production is about 1500 trees from seeds,

You are amazing giang, everytime you post I get a new bit of info
thanks
bounce

rock
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Re: Maples bonsai from seeds

Post  CSBudzi on Sun Sep 09, 2012 8:28 am

Hi,
when I prepare the stratification base, I use the home oven to sterilize everything, 20 min at 200°C. Chemical fugicide is dangerous for the family fridge. I basically use the wood charcoal and do the weekly aeration to limit the development of micro organisms. For the seeds, I buy every year from the professional sellers, because they have the structure for the seed storage (cool temperature 2 to 5°C and no light) and they have the statistics for the germanition rate of each species.

Giang


Giang,

Really this thread has been so very helpful. Your responses are so valuable. Thank you for taking the time to answer everyone's questions.
I have been looking for reliable seed sellers specifically for Japanese maples. I wanted to know if you could sell me some of your seeds or turn me to who you buy your seeds from.
My biggest problem is finding fresh seeds for specific cultivars, I was specifically looking for Arakawa and Seigen or Chishio. Also looking for Kiyohime, Kashima and Yatsubusa And I know it is very hard to find seeds that will produce those cultivars since most seeds are collected from grafted trees and those seeds will typically resemble more the root stock or a hybrid of the graft.
Could you tell me where I can find seeds for these cultivars?
I know it would be much easier to purchase grafts or cuttings, but there is just something about growing my own from seeds.

C. S. Budzi

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Re: Maples bonsai from seeds

Post  giangus on Sun Sep 09, 2012 12:33 pm

Hi C. S. Budzi
Cultivar maples have or dont have generally viable seeds. Most of the time professional nurseries produce those cultivars by grafting, air layering, cuttings...To have a great quantity every year, I use the Acer palmatum to graft on other cultivars such as Deshojo, Seigen...etc.

When the selected cultivar is well grafted on the Acer palmatum, in the next 2 years (it depends the size on the pre-bonsai you want to have), I use the air layering technic to create a new independant root system on the selected cultivar.

The viability of the seeds depends on many factors, the trees, the time of harvesting, the way of keeping. Usually, after harvesting, professional providers keep seeds in the 3 to 5°C to preserve the freshness of the embryo and its reserve.

I still have Acer palmatum seeds with a germination rate about 40%. If you are interested, please let me know by an PM.
giang

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Re: Maples bonsai from seeds

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