Time Lags seen when Fine Art movements transfer to other practices

Khaimraj Seepersad wrote:Inability to discuss and next we move onto argument. Never fails - ha ha.
Thanks Jim.
Khaimraj

Khaimraj I have read this post with disbelief... some of you comments appear as if you are the back end of a pantomime horse... you think you are the star of the show but have no idea what is actually happening!, you just walk around kicking your legs with your head up the arse of the guy who is the head and who actually knows what is going on.

My advice to you is read more and comment less.

Ravi, thank you for your clear and concise explanation.

Ravi,

for what is worth you got it. This isn't about making one standard shape for the same species, but seeing the variations and then applying that information. As you might have noticed the simple Broom Style has many variations.

I started this topic here, because I think the Bonsai Forum is for more or less Bonsai trees. This is /was supposed to be a few thoughts working around in my head and seeing if anyone else had thought about them or gone further. As usual, this being the Internet, there are always the few who can't contribute, get angry and start getting rude. Note how many contributions were made and by whom.

I am always drawing on two worlds, Fine Art and Bonsai / Penjing. Some will get used to it, others will not, can't be helped.

I am familiar with Walter's work, some of it is very fine, some a little confusing. I even dropped of a bit in his blog on soils.

Jun, as I mentioned on your topic in the Bonsai Forum, windswept styles require a good deal of attention to work, too much for me to handle.

Mr.Tickle, I used to admire you for your work and read at your pages. I even wrote to you privately and congratulated you on your amazing sense of humour with the Avatar image.
I guess I was a fool.

Thanks to all who responded. I had stopped watching the topic and someone brought the responses to my attention a few minutes ago.

Will, for confusion and toe stepping. I humbly apologise.
Later.
Khaimraj

Khaimraj "read more comment less"

You said it: definition of 'fool' One who is deficient in judgment, sense, or understanding. One who acts unwisely on a given occasion.

Thanks Will.


Khaimraj,
though bonsai is an art...this is a very distant relative of the other form of arts, that's probably why they are evolving in different directions.

regards,
jun



Ravi,

much clearer now. the wind swept tree in the wild looks like a literarti too. I am imitating the same thing with one of my tamarind...thats why I guess styles shouldn't be limited in the several basic designs. natural trees are more inspiring to follow in designing a tree rather than limiting with bonsai typical design...






good luck with your windswept tree...dont follow your instinct, rather follow the the wind...hehe.

regards,
jun


.....in my latest post in the bonsai section, this is what I refer to as brawl of the mind. speaking of brawls---
have any of you guys watched the movie "fight club"? the main character of the movie is my look alike Brad Pitt, the lead character thought (inside his head) that he was fighting some guys, but in the end he realized that he was hitting his own face.

regards,
jun

Great analogy Jun.

which one Will? the tamarind?

Quote - Khaimraj “I am always drawing on two worlds, Fine Art and Bonsai / Penjing. Some will get used to it, others will not, can't be helped”.

I think I have some idea why you started this thread so I’d like to ask – have you (or anyone reading this) designed a tree from only your fine art world, using the techniques from your other world (bonsai/penjing)?
As I have offered in another thread – if we did develop and train a tree to be a piece of art rather than a bonsai would it get shunned or accepted by the bonsai world?
Cheers
Graham

gman wrote:As I have offered in another thread – if we did develop and train a tree to be a piece of art rather than a bonsai would it get shunned or accepted by the bonsai world?
Cheers
Graham

Graham,

Sadly Graham, I fear that it would be shunned. There seems to be lots of bonsai dogma in the hobby and not enough vision to see a piece of art for what it is,rather than what it should be.

Just my 2 cents,
Randy

Graham,

what an Imaginative Multifigurative painter is someone who draws on his experiences from Reality and his Imagination, using humans and the world [ Landscape, Still life etc.] to pass on ideas.

Imagination just means reshuffling in the head, the often visual experiences from reality - a waking dream if you prefer.

I used to just say, I was an imaginative painter, and the North Americans told me that was not enough.
[ As Fiona said - at times too many isms, but it seems to be necessary for folk to know how to talk to you - the famous pigeon hole.]

Since all my training is from nature - drawing what is in front of me [ no photographs ] I have had much time collecting images of trees all over the island under different times of the day - lighting changes the look.

In creating an image for painting, one fits objects together in a pleasant pattern.
The idea being that the eye is the path to the mind, so for a painting to be effective one must first delight the eye [ with patterns ] before the mind will be engaged.

The same goes for a Bonsai tree or trees in a tray, scholar stones etc..

So after observing the variety in one type of tree say, oak, you select what might be to you the most appealing shapes and re-blend to create an oak, which could have existed in nature [ Idealism ] and through the use of patterns, stimulate the eye to get to the mind's memories.
[ I draw a rough or more finished image to guide me to the finish and it is a flexible / adaptable image]

When you first observe an oil painting, it is the big shapes that reach out to you. Long before you see details like - hands, eyes, strands of hair - you instead see masses and effects of light.
Look at Titian's, Ariadne at Naxos in the National Gallery on-line [ London ] as an example. Shrink the image to postage card size, and also change to blcak and white -- what do you see ?

Try a bonsai with the above, what do you see. The postage stamp size mimics the seeing from a distance which is the biggest shapes reaching out to your eyes.

The same occurs with an excellent Bonsai - see Mishi Shiba - grass on the roadside. [ Valavanis's International Bonsai - on Junipers.]

Now when you just sit and conjure up shapes of trees, as you wish it might be seen as Mannerism.
Especially if you never look at nature which would be - mature tree shapes of that particular tree type.

The rest of the ism's should be easy to grasp.

Bonsai seems to be going through a long period of trees being created on other bonsai, another form of Mannerism.

With all all works of art, all the ism's are there, at the same time, but often one ism is more dominant.

Now I do agree with Fiona, but I didn't agree with the lack of contribution to this topic, and then Ravi helped out.
Plus, I don't like to be asked to say anything about anyone's trees.
I have had years of critiques on the cartoon and oil study [ beginning stage of a painting when it is most crucial for the idea being expressed] and am immune to words. If it is off, I fix, not try to talk my way out of the situation - the excuses.

When I finish a painting, I go deaf, same with a Bonsai. Very little can be done at the finished stage to make a major correction.

Abstract thinking especially if new, can be so raw as to be inexplicable, and so it is best to throw out the idea to other folk, to help refine the ideas, as I tried to do here.
Khaimraj

*For Bonsai to be an Art Form, one would also have to get to the hologram stage. Trees out-grow designs, all their long, long lives.

Ask Randy what he said of my - sad - Texas Ebony - designed with the above guidelines.

As usual - there is no way I can possibly answer all the points in one e-mail response -
Thank you.
Khaimraj

Hi Khaimraj, Not sure if this is helping or not but I’ll try and explain what I was also thinking on this topic;

I think I have a basic understanding of what you are saying as you try to express your thoughts on Bonsai based on your relationship with your art training/experience, combining or adapting them with your exposure to Mother Nature’s examples.

However what I was trying to explore and explain was the ability of us to use bonsai techniques to ascertain specific qualities of the tree but the overall design does not give an illusion of a tree but a piece of art. Like we’ve all read…. some folks try to find the natural rhythm of the tree not a preconceived vision or design. I’ve seen hundreds of classic bonsai that are famous in other countries and admire them very much but I see an old tree with an almost triangular shape following all the “classic rules” (except for examples I’ve seen from Kamura which are surely works or art and R. Stevenson/ Walter P. which are very naturalistic pieces …etc)

So we each have a different approach in our worlds of bonsai, most of us drawn to it from our appreciation of mother nature and our ability and “enjoyment of growing” but I believe that all things in nature have a specific rhythm (like the Chinese philosophy and concept of yin yang) and when we can find that, the object clearly speaks to us…(be it a tree, painting or sculpture etc).

One of my other interests is wood carving …..I often find/use interesting pieces of driftwood and when I work on them I try not to let a preconceived idea fog the final design, I try and find the “soul” of the piece, by letting the piece speak to me (if you will) and as I chip, carve, scrap and sand etc I try and find the grains rhythm and patterns which tell me how to create the piece bringing it alive with its own uniqueness and character.
So if we were to try and adapt this rhythm with our own artistic abilities to create a living piece of art………… will we move bonsai into the more modern world?
Cheers and thanks.
G.