Time Lags seen when Fine Art movements transfer to other practices

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Time Lags seen when Fine Art movements transfer to other practices

Post  Khaimraj Seepersad on Wed Dec 15, 2010 11:29 am

Just a thought or an observation.

In the world of Fine Art, Abstraction or Modern Art [ Picasso etc ] is dead and has been since the 70's, and things have moved out of Mannerism, and back into Realism/Naturalism and onto Idealism.

Why then is Bonsai now going through the Mannerism phase ?

Is it because there is an extreme time lag ?
Maybe because trees take over 3 to 10 years to respond to an idea ????

Just wondering?????????
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Re: Time Lags seen when Fine Art movements transfer to other practices

Post  JimLewis on Wed Dec 15, 2010 1:11 pm

For us ignoramuses out here, please define terms -- preferably with illustrations.

Thanks.

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Re: Time Lags seen when Fine Art movements transfer to other practices

Post  Guest on Wed Dec 15, 2010 4:28 pm

Im with Jim on this one. Haven't got the foggiest clue what your talking about.

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Re: Time Lags seen when Fine Art movements transfer to other practices

Post  Guest on Wed Dec 15, 2010 4:54 pm

Dont understand how you go from Picasso to mannerism when mannerism preceded abstraction by 400 0dd years and applies to the body. A bonsai evolving into surrealism, cubism or abstractism, becomes topiary..ism?

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Re: Time Lags seen when Fine Art movements transfer to other practices

Post  Khaimraj Seepersad on Thu Dec 16, 2010 7:16 am

Mannerism - http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/mannerism - 1 -a

Realism - http://www.answers.com/topic/realism - 1 and 2

Naturalism - http://www.thefreedictionary.com/naturalism - 1-b and lower down -2. (Fine Arts & Visual Arts / Art Movements) a school of painting or sculpture characterized by the faithful imitation of appearances for their own sake

Idealism - http://www.answers.com/topic/idealism - 1 and 3 - 3.Idealized treatment of a subject in literature or art



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Re: Time Lags seen when Fine Art movements transfer to other practices

Post  JimLewis on Thu Dec 16, 2010 1:34 pm

It's prolly just that bonsai are trees and trees don't lend themselves so well into all the idiosyncratic (and often, idiotic) ideas that humans tend to move toward when they're bored. Trees aren't liberals or conservatives, either.

Trees are trees and all to often if we force them into being something else, they're just boring.


Last edited by JimLewis on Fri Dec 17, 2010 7:01 pm; edited 1 time in total

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Re: Time Lags seen when Fine Art movements transfer to other practices

Post  Khaimraj Seepersad on Thu Dec 16, 2010 7:54 pm

Well Jim,

if I am reading you correctly,[not sure about -prolly - first time seeing the word and my little oxford doesn't have it, ] we are probably in agreement.

Mannerism as applied to Bonsai, would most possibly be what Mr. John Naka was speaking about - Make your bonsai look not like a bonsai but a tree.
Many trees look like copies of other bonsai often pines and junipers, and odd negative shapes which are graceless, because the idea is coming from someones mind [ a manner ] and not from observations of nature and someone's mind. Imagination and Reality blend.

Realism / Naturalism, as applied to Bonsai is someone directly copying a tree from nature.

Idealism is someone using typical shapes to produce an ideal tree.

My question was simply why is Bonsai stuck in the mannerism period at a time when Fine Art has moved back into Realism / Naturalism / Idealism.

This query, was partially started by a page in Rob Kempinski's book, where he comments on the sculptural treatment of trees taking place presently.
And my constant question on why, for example Buttonwood or Phemphis ends up as juniper wannabees or Casuarinas look like pines. Where in the true tropics Buttonwood has no driftwood [ that seems to be an effect of a trace of winter, present in a tiny area of a sub-tropical zone ] and Casuarinas, at least the equisetifolia looks like other than a pine.

These tree types don't seem to be evolving into individuals, but more zone envy.

Anyhow these are just questions and not hard and fast / concrete rules or anything, before anyone gets aggressive.
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Re: Time Lags seen when Fine Art movements transfer to other practices

Post  Guest on Fri Dec 17, 2010 12:22 pm

Evil or Very Mad

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Re: Time Lags seen when Fine Art movements transfer to other practices

Post  Guest on Fri Dec 17, 2010 5:23 pm

Thanks for the explanation Khaimjaj but I feel you are generalising somewhat. There was a recent discussion on another thread about this very question. Some work by top name Italians for example(Please don't think I am picking on Italians), show great material, artistry and technique, but their deciduous trees could be accused of looking like Pines and Junipers. This is not the same across the board. Many artists work to a more natural style and work with the form of the tree in the wild. I have posted a couple of my trees to ask you where you think they fit in with your "isms"

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Re: Time Lags seen when Fine Art movements transfer to other practices

Post  Guest on Fri Dec 17, 2010 5:26 pm

I would be very interested to hear your reply.

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Re: Time Lags seen when Fine Art movements transfer to other practices

Post  Khaimraj Seepersad on Fri Dec 17, 2010 6:44 pm

Will,

i am not sure how to respond????????

I am looking at two trees, that are on a flat screen and are appearing as a flat drawn design. My response would be to look at negative spaces and shapes formed by branch movement and how they relate to the pot as well.

If I knew the trees, my answer would be more aggressive [ don't tell me what they are - okay.]
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Re: Time Lags seen when Fine Art movements transfer to other practices

Post  Khaimraj Seepersad on Fri Dec 17, 2010 6:55 pm

Will,

an extreme example of viewing on the Internet, and in digital shortcomings -

Pure design - http://www.wbff-2013.org/indexaction!bgview.action?bgId=33

5th image, guy in red under tree, rocks, all in a marble pot. The mind is telling you there are back branches.
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Re: Time Lags seen when Fine Art movements transfer to other practices

Post  Guest on Fri Dec 17, 2010 7:02 pm

What??? I'm not getting you at all. You cannot give an opinion on a 2 dimensional image taken of a 3 dimensional object? That rather limits the point of this forum for you doesn't it....Khaimraj? Or have I not understood you at all?

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Re: Time Lags seen when Fine Art movements transfer to other practices

Post  Khaimraj Seepersad on Fri Dec 17, 2010 7:24 pm

Will,

when someone shows a finished tree all you offer is praise.
[Standard and golden rule of oil painting extended to Bonsai.]
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Re: Time Lags seen when Fine Art movements transfer to other practices

Post  JimLewis on Fri Dec 17, 2010 7:36 pm

Only if it deserves it.

If it doesn't, and you think you can suggest ways to improve it, do that.

If it doesn't, and you feel it is hopeless, stay silent.

(And, frankly, I think it is better to stay silent rather than waste time (yours and mine) just saying "Nice tree.")

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Re: Time Lags seen when Fine Art movements transfer to other practices

Post  fiona on Fri Dec 17, 2010 9:34 pm

Talking of isms, is it just my impression(ism) or has this thread lost its point(illism)?

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Re: Time Lags seen when Fine Art movements transfer to other practices

Post  Paul B (Scotland) on Fri Dec 17, 2010 9:50 pm

will baddeley wrote: I have posted a couple of my trees to ask you where you think they fit in with your "isms"

Lovely-isms Smile


I dont get this link between painting and bonsai, it seems a pointless comparison to me.

Will - Please post a photo of a lovely-ism Larch - something with some Damien Hirst like qualities to it would be nice.

Paul


Last edited by paul burke on Fri Dec 17, 2010 10:00 pm; edited 1 time in total

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Re: Time Lags seen when Fine Art movements transfer to other practices

Post  Khaimraj Seepersad on Fri Dec 17, 2010 9:57 pm

Inability to discuss and next we move onto argument. Never fails - ha ha.
Thanks Jim.
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Re: Time Lags seen when Fine Art movements transfer to other practices

Post  Guest on Fri Dec 17, 2010 10:19 pm

Discuss what exactly?

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Re: Time Lags seen when Fine Art movements transfer to other practices

Post  Khaimraj Seepersad on Fri Dec 17, 2010 10:24 pm

Folks,

the older guys of IBC will tell you, I don't spoonfeed, nor can I be coerced into anything.
Clarifiers were left in the earlier statements - thinking caps on, or not all - as you wish.
Apologies for the rudeness.
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Re: Time Lags seen when Fine Art movements transfer to other practices

Post  Guest on Fri Dec 17, 2010 11:47 pm

Hi people.

...I'm trying to have a holiday vacation, same with my posting. BUT I can't simply read and take this kind of discussion anymore.
My trees were also partly hit by this "ism" attack. specially mentioning phempis and casuarina.

So this is my thought on this.

It's all about style.
lets just say, all trees were styled based of what Khaimraj own perception of nice and perfect design. I think all trees would look almost the same, natural yes, but BORING in its natural form and most likely will lost the story of the tree, which I think is one of the most important message that the artist must show to anybody seeing the tree.
Let us not limit our idea of a tree in nature grown in an almost perfect environment like the ones we usually see in a park, in somebody's backyard or any trees growing in a less harsh environment. trees in places where forces of nature are always on the rampage grows much differently, say like a phempis. a phempis growing in a flat land 500 meters away from the shoreline will be formed with an almost like a tamarind growing in the same kind of environment but a phempis acidula growing by the cliff along the shoreline will be very much different in form.


now, if i will form a tree similar to the one growing in a flat land, with just the ocean breeze affecting the growth formation of the branches it might look like this...






...and if the phempis grows by the cliff near the shoreline trying to cling in the rocks for dear life, it might look like this...



...and if the phempis main trunk died on top of a cliff the tree with living lower part will form something like this...




the last two images may some similarity with the way some pines are styled...but certainly the story is much different.


same thing with Will's tree, the first one i saw a dead powerful tree then resurrected again to adopt new form. never mind the negative spaces or other issues they can always be modified...but the STYLE in showing the trees life and struggle is the most important thing.

now please somebody show a tree from a cutting or from SEEDLING who can show a powerful image and some struggle from the tree's journey to life. well this can posted as a new topic "trees life journey" or story of your tree".

regards,
jun






Smile

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Re: Time Lags seen when Fine Art movements transfer to other practices

Post  Guest on Sat Dec 18, 2010 3:29 am

Ahh, at last something I understand Jun. Well said.

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Re: Time Lags seen when Fine Art movements transfer to other practices

Post  Ravi Kiran on Sat Dec 18, 2010 5:41 am

A very interesting thread indeed. A little surprised to see it under the General Discussion Banner when it could have been under the Bonsai category.

The thoughts of could a species be styled as another species' natural form has always intrigued me if not bemused me. If one were to style a ficus as a ficus, a pine as a pine, a maple as a maple and so on.... what would happen to creativity and variety. One would end up with a small list of almost identical looking bonsai or as the popular phrase was sometime ago - Cookie cutter bonsai. Even when one looks into nature (as is mentioned in this thread) the complete spectrum of Well set healthy trees to trees struggling for existence inspire multiple designs within a given species. In nature I have seen a Neem Tree (A proper tropical species) styled by nature like a juniper or a pine (pic below)



So when nature itself styles trees in myriad forms (those who look far and wide with open eyes will surely find them) why not us as bonsai artists?

Jun I also liked your thoughts backed well with pics, very much and am fully with you on this. I am not sure though why you asked for a pic of a tree from cutting which portrays a struggle for existence but nevertheless here is a pic of my tree in what I call a windswept-uprooted style.



The two line story is that The tree was subject to sweeping winds which directed its branches to one side. One stormy day when the winds got real wild, they almost toppled the tree by partly uprooting it. The tree held on and the storm subsided. Yes the tree is from a cutting and is currently under training (as on date it looks a little better than the pic) and needs atleast another year before it sets in the final design that I have in mind.

Hope you enjoy your holiday and get back home soon. Missing your post.

Will your trees are great and have some very interesting stories to tell and to me are very very pleasing
Smile

Regards
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Re: Time Lags seen when Fine Art movements transfer to other practices

Post  Ravi Kiran on Sat Dec 18, 2010 6:15 am

It's a lil embarrassing to answer in parts but better that than leaving something unsaid. So here goes

Will - to use the language of isms as explained by Khaimraj, your first tree(IMHO) is a Realism/Naturalism and though your second tree partly fits into the same category there is also a slant towards Idealism. Yes I am untrained in formal arts but relying (and in the process getting trained) on Khaimraj's explanations. In common man's language your trees are exceptional bonsai Very Happy

Khaimraj,

I guess I understand what you had in mind when you started this thread. Bonsai is indeed headed towards Realism/naturalism from mannerism. One such school of thought is the one advocated by Walter Pall as naturalistic Bonsai style. You could visit Walter's Blog and read an article or two in the articles section. Though in its infancy it is gaining momentum and acceptance. The link is http://walterpallbonsaiarticles.blogspot.com/search/label/English

What you call Mannerisms can be simplified as caricatures (or cartoons if you prefer) of trees. This has been the traditional approach to bonsai. The idea being to capture the essential features of a tree and convincingly portray the image of a tree in miniature. This was done in a few simplified steps (or brushstrokes to use the painting lingo).

Naturalistic Bonsai on the other hand is a little more complex. Instead of a caricature of a tree, the aim is to compress the tree look in miniature and is more detailed. This cannot be accomplished in a few simplified steps. The overall image also will not have simplified lines or curves with alternating perfectly placed branches etc.

The simple difference between the traditional style of Bonsai and the Naturalistic style is that the traditional style is an illustration of a tree while the Naturalistic style is the compressed version of a tree (pics below)


Traditionally styled bonsai



Naturalistic styled bonsai

So indeed the shift is there but is happening in small pockets and will hopefully evolve over time and get more visibility and acceptance.

I hope I am making myself understood and not adding to the confusion. Do let me know.

Regards
Ravi

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Re: Time Lags seen when Fine Art movements transfer to other practices

Post  Guest on Sat Dec 18, 2010 6:30 am

Thankyou Ravi for your time and clear explanation. I found it difficult to understand the different isms and therefore posted a couple of trees for classification and clarification. Thanks again.

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Re: Time Lags seen when Fine Art movements transfer to other practices

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