Collecting and the law!

View previous topic View next topic Go down

Collecting and the law!

Post  Tony on Fri Jan 29, 2010 10:15 am

My mother always told me "Never go near a Swan because it can break your arm" I have never heard of anyone actually having their arm broken by a Swan.

I have heard stories of people illegally collecting trees from the wild and being arrested/fined or have simply got into trouble... but they are just that for 'Stories' ... Can anyone post actual 'FACTS' as I am trying to dissuade someone from a 'Bandit Run'

FACTS PLEASE, with links to the reports wherever possible.

_________________
Tony Tickle.. "that's not your real name is it?"

‎"Study me as much as you like, you will never know me, for I differ a hundred ways from what you see me to be. Put yourself behind my eyes, and see me as I see myself, for I have chosen to dwell in a place you cannot see." — Rumi

Visit Tony's Bonsai website

If you Tweet?

Tony
Member


Back to top Go down

Re: Collecting and the law!

Post  jrodriguez on Fri Jan 29, 2010 12:03 pm

Tony,

Yes, this is a fact. Some years ago, few friends of mine went to collect trees at the Guánica Dry Forest of Puerto Rico. This is a protected area under the United States Forestry Service and the local Natural Resources Preserve. A few years before the event, Eugenia Xerophytica became very popular. This type of myrtle grows on lime-stone and tends to develop incredibly flared root buttresses. Anyhow, they only grow in the Guánica area and are under close watch. Some pople figure that "wherever there's a law, there must be a way to break it", and a group of close friends began collecting these trees. Although they were successful several times, local residents began to notice their presence.

After some time, the collectors developed confidence and dared to use a gasoline chain saw!!! This was it. The local authorities made way into the collecting site and arrested everyone. All those present were charged and hefty fines were imposed. As for the trees, well, they were confiscated as evidence and left to perish.

While in trial, I was consulted by several of the infractors as to whether there were any glitches in the statutes, Fortunately, the area itself didn't have warning signs stating that it was protected and seveal of the local residents used part of it as a clandestine dump. WE took pictures of the site and presented them as evidence. Luckily, the judge bit; no jail time, but hefty fines had to be paid!!!

Jose

jrodriguez
Member


Back to top Go down

Re: Collecting and the law!

Post  Harleyrider on Fri Jan 29, 2010 12:13 pm

I've just spent an hour trawling the net Tony. I used every relevant word /phrase I could think of to find some evidence. Nothing. Zilch. Nichts. Nada, nowt.

I don't know which website deals with SSSI issues, but have you tried looking there?

In a similar vein, can anyone furnish me with info on the ban on tree inports to the UK? Not that I'm considering trying it, you understand Suspect , I just want to see what it's all about.

Harleyrider
Member


Back to top Go down

Re:Collecting and the law!

Post  Bob Brunt on Fri Jan 29, 2010 12:40 pm

Hi Tony
Had a quick look at the DEFRA website whilst on my lunch break..Far to much info to take in in such a small time.There are mentions of Collecting wild plants ( which i assume would include trees ).But mentions EPS..European Protcected Species only.Couldnt see anything on commom species.
http://www.defra.gov.uk/defrasearch/index.jsp?query=collecting+wild+plants+

Bob Brunt
Member


Back to top Go down

Law in the UK

Post  Kev Bailey on Fri Jan 29, 2010 12:41 pm

The Wildlife and Countryside Act 1981 http://www.jncc.gov.uk/page-1377
"The Act makes it an offence (subject to exceptions) to pick, uproot, trade in, or possess (for the purposes of trade) any wild plant listed in Schedule 8, and prohibits the unauthorised intentional uprooting of such plants. Animals and plants found on schedules 5 and 8 are listed on a spreadsheet of conservation designations for UK taxa."

There are 18,222 records in the spreadsheet that comprises Schedule 8. http://www.jncc.gov.uk/page-3408
I'm not about to spend a week searching through it for each tree species. But, as examples Taxus baccata is there, Pinus sylvestris is there, Quercus petraea and robur are there. You get the picture. It is illegal to uproot or posess them without permission. The spreadsheet I'm looking at was updated in November 2009.

There are now dedicated Police officers whose sole duty is to investigate Wildlife and Countryside crimes. They are more likely to be after large scale thefts, such as Christmas trees etc but it is as well to know the law, so that we understand the importance of requesting and obtaining permission.

_________________
“It is not the strongest of the species that survives, nor the most intelligent. It is the one that is the most adaptable to change.” - Charles Darwin.

Kev Bailey
Admin


Back to top Go down

Re: Collecting and the law!

Post  JimLewis on Fri Jan 29, 2010 1:26 pm

Over here, I know people who have been arrested and fined for taking rocks out of a national park (Yellowstone - Grand Canyon - Bryce Canyon). These were small, easily carried rocks; not landscape boulders.

In Florida, arrests are "common" in the Everglades for collectors of wild orchids, and tree snails -- all of them protected species (so arrests aren't common enough!).

So these things happen.

But the biggest argument against collecting where you shouldn't should be that it is simply unethical.

_________________
Jim Lewis - lewisjk@windstream.net - Western NC - People, when Columbus discovered this country, it was plumb full of nuts and berries. And I'm right here to tell you the berries are just about all gone. Uncle Dave Macon, old-time country musician

JimLewis
Member


Back to top Go down

Re: Collecting and the law!

Post  Harleyrider on Fri Jan 29, 2010 2:12 pm

Amen to that, Jim.

Harleyrider
Member


Back to top Go down

Re: Collecting and the law!

Post  pine queen on Fri Jan 29, 2010 2:26 pm

Over halph the native yamadori seen advertised in shops in my area are illegal as your nose is long Tony. Pease do not ask specifics. Probably more like 75%. And yes, jail happens.

Queenie

pine queen
Member


Back to top Go down

Re: Collecting and the law!

Post  Gæst on Fri Jan 29, 2010 2:32 pm

There are clearly defined rules for collecting in both public and private forests i.e. in Denmark stated by the national forest and nature administration.

It is legal to collect berries, mushrooms, small plants that are not on a list of endangered specimens (of course), cutting small branches of big trees e.g. Everything only for personal use and what you can have in your hands walking, nothing must be sold. BUT it is not allowed to dig any trees at all, unless a clear commitment with the owner of the area is present; either the national administration or the local private owner. The law is simple and clear. Breaking the law leads to fines of some level.

I know some collects in Denmark, but only with permission so far I know of.

Regards
Morten

Gæst
Guest


Back to top Go down

Re: Collecting and the law!

Post  JimLewis on Fri Jan 29, 2010 3:44 pm

Back in my working days, I specilized in environmental education for the State of Florida, and did quiite a bit of work in Environmenal ethics for the general public and for school children.

I wrote an article for the ABS Journal some years ago called "The Ethics of Collecting." I got some kudos on it, but I also got quite a few bits of hate e-mail, too. It really startled me how many bonsai growers felt that it was OK to yank trees out of the ground whenever and wherever they wish to do it, and how nasty they could be to someone who was simply preaching ethical behavior. A good number of these were from the wide-open spaces of the western US -- understandable, I guess since a lot of folks out there seem to worry a lot about black helicopters from the UN swooping down on their double-wide trailers and taking away their assault rifles.

We had the article up on the old IBC, too -- along with a how-to article on collecting. I heard very little bad about it there. Maybe we'll get these both back up again fairly soon.

_________________
Jim Lewis - lewisjk@windstream.net - Western NC - People, when Columbus discovered this country, it was plumb full of nuts and berries. And I'm right here to tell you the berries are just about all gone. Uncle Dave Macon, old-time country musician

JimLewis
Member


Back to top Go down

Re: Collecting and the law!

Post  bigsteve on Fri Jan 29, 2010 4:55 pm

Interesting topic Jim
Here in the UK its quite simple really, if you do not have permission you cannot collect
I know of a number of incidents where trees are taken from private land without permission
or from public areas without authority.
but in almost 30 years police service i have not heard of a prosecution for such an offence
in fact in most cases land owners are more tham happy for you to take the odd tree as long as they are
made aware of your intentions. we are normally viewed as eccentrics with a tentative grip on reality
Like all hobbies we have the odd person who will spoil things
but generally in british bonsai we do not have run-ins with the authorities.
fingers crossed
regards steve

bigsteve
Member


Back to top Go down

Re: Collecting and the law!

Post  Fuzzy on Fri Jan 29, 2010 9:50 pm

bigsteve wrote: we are normally viewed as eccentrics with a tentative grip on reality
Describes me to a T! Very Happy Dance

Fuzzy
Member


Back to top Go down

Re: Collecting and the law!

Post  bonsaistud on Sat Jan 30, 2010 12:29 am

G'day Tony...

Here's one for you...

STEAL A CACTUS GO TO JAIL: RUSTLERS GET STIFF SENTENCE

A federal judge has hit two saguaro rustlers with the some of the harshest sentences ever handed down in the state for the theft of cacti.

Joseph Tillman, 50, was sentenced to eight months in federal prison and Gregory James McKee, 42, was sentenced to eight months home confinement and 100 hours of community service. They also received three years supervised release upon completion of their sentences.

The Tucson men pleaded guilty to poaching the cactus from Saguaro National Park in 2007. The pair admitted digging up several cacti and stashing them near a road in the park where they later attempted to pick them up.

What Tillman and McKee did not know was that the stash of downed cacti had been discovered by national park service rangers. When the men arrived to take the saguaros out in a truck driven by McKee, their plans fell apart.

“This activity will not be taken lightly,” said Dennis Burke, Arizona U.S. Attorney. “Indeed, this is one of the longest sentences ever for cactus-rustling in (the district of Arizona). Creative landscaping is no excuse to plunder natural treasures from our national parks.”

Saguaros are protected under Arizona’s native plant law. The cactus is sensitive to the environment and has a slow reproduction and growth rate, making it hard to grow in nurseries.

Saguaros can only be found in the southwest and can take more than 10 years to grow from a seedling to an inch high.

They are vulnerable to development and pollution. Saguaros are also highly prized by rustlers who sell them on the black market or to customers who don’t want to pay retail price for one of the giant plants.

Jeffery Shaw, owner of the Cactus Hut in Scottsdale, says a saguaro purchased legitimately costs about $100 per foot to install, so a 16-foot cactus would run about $1600.

They can grow more than 50-feet high in the wild.

“Saguaros have become a valuable commodity and are increasingly targeted by thieves and poachers,” Saguaro National Park Chief Ranger Robert Love said in a statement. “Sentences like the ones imposed on Tillman and McKee send a strong message to those who plunder our Nation’s natural resources.”


Friday, November 20, 2009 at 11:36 AM
Topics: NEWS, 12 News, PHOENIX NEWS, Dennis Burke, theft, cactus rustlers, saguaro national park, the cactus hut, Joseph tillman, Gregory James McKee, Arizona U.S. Attorney's Office


EDIT by Jim Lewis For those who have no idea what a saguaro is:

bonsaistud
Member


Back to top Go down

i have not heard of a prosecution

Post  Tony on Sat Jan 30, 2010 7:00 pm

bigsteve wrote: in almost 30 years police service i have not heard of a prosecution for such an offence

Big Steve should know more than most (being a Bobby)... Bottom line is whatever the law I do not know of anyone in the UK or mainland Europe being prosecuted... even the law of trespass does not appear to stack up.

Cactus, I understand as they are relatively 'mainstream' landscape items... to the general public stunted trees are not.

It is NOT ethical to collect without permission simple as that, but unlawful its not yet been proven in a court of law, not in the UK.

_________________
Tony Tickle.. "that's not your real name is it?"

‎"Study me as much as you like, you will never know me, for I differ a hundred ways from what you see me to be. Put yourself behind my eyes, and see me as I see myself, for I have chosen to dwell in a place you cannot see." — Rumi

Visit Tony's Bonsai website

If you Tweet?

Tony
Member


Back to top Go down

Re: Collecting and the law!

Post  bigsteve on Sat Jan 30, 2010 9:21 pm

thanks tony - trespass is a weak law unless you enter somewhere as a trespasser and steal. One of my jobs is a wildlife liaison officer and a lot of topics in the wildlife community in britain on plant theft are surrounding rare flowers such as orchids and never stunted trees thank goodness

bigsteve
Member


Back to top Go down

Illegal collecting consequences

Post  Rob Kempinski on Sun Jan 31, 2010 2:05 pm

Of course the laws vary in each country and in each state.

I'll start with my personal experience. I received permission via a written permit to collect trees from the US Fish and Wildlife Service for their land at Merritt Island Wildlife Preserve. While collecting and fairly deep in the boondocks, a Fish and Wildilfe officer man noticed my car and when I returned to my car he was there and asked me what I was doing. I told him "I was collecting trees ... (pregnant pause) but had a permit. Do you want to see it?" He said yes and I dug it out and showed it to him. " He read it and said ok, but be careful (It was hot that day.) I asked him what the penalty was and he said the fine was substantial and there could have been trespass charges as well.

A bonsai friend was collecting material from the end of a railroad right of way without permission. He was arrested by the railroad security, and went to jail. Was finger printed and booked for trespass charges. The fine was several thousand US dollars.

Three bonsai friends were collecting on a state park. They were detained by a park ranger who couldn't believe they were digging up trees. After a couple hour detention the park range decided to let them go, for unknown reasons.

A well known bonsai artist and European emigree to the US was collecting material from the side of a US Interstate highway without permission. He was arrested by the police, and went to jail. Was finger printed and booked for trespass charges. If I recall he told me the fine was 900 US dollars.

After the 9-11 terrorist attack US security has been less forgiving about such illegal shenanigans.

Rob Kempinski
Member


Back to top Go down

Re: Collecting and the law!

Post  JimLewis on Sun Jan 31, 2010 3:56 pm

Alas, the Florida Legislature in its "wisdom" last year reduced penalties for collecting plants on state parks land. Before this action, collecting resulted in a criminal penalty, which could have been $1000 and 30 days, if I recall. The Legislature has reduced it to a civil penalty as a "Second Degree Misdemeanor." Civil fine is $500 and the penalty is ejection from the park (you can't return to any park until you pay the fine).

Yet another assault on Florida's environment by its "leaders." Embarassed

(I can't find if they changed the penalties for collecting endangered or threatened species -- so I assume they did not.)

_________________
Jim Lewis - lewisjk@windstream.net - Western NC - People, when Columbus discovered this country, it was plumb full of nuts and berries. And I'm right here to tell you the berries are just about all gone. Uncle Dave Macon, old-time country musician

JimLewis
Member


Back to top Go down

Re: Collecting and the law!

Post  Sponsored content Today at 10:42 am


Sponsored content


Back to top Go down

View previous topic View next topic Back to top


 
Permissions in this forum:
You cannot reply to topics in this forum