Bonsai style suggestions

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Bonsai style suggestions

Post  kenikol on Sat May 16, 2015 4:39 pm

Hello,

today I have obtained two new tree from a garden center.

One is a black pine, and the second one is a Ginko. I bought the Ginko for my girlfriend. I try to figure it out which is the best front view, and best bonsai style for both tree.
Could you please help me with some pictures, drawings, sketches, or some recommendations what kind of tree should be the best results from these two tree.

First one is the pine. I think this is a 6-7-8 years old black pine, but I'm not sure about it. I think the best style will be Shakkan or Moyogi. But I'm sure I have to reduce the distance between the first branches and the second one which come from the main trunk.






The other tree is a Ginko Biloba.
For this tree maybe the Bunjin style should be the best. To reach this I think I have to cut down the top of the tree, and cut down the leaves and small braches of the 2/3 of the main trunk. After that it should be wired and do a light "S" form with the main trunk.





What do you think guys about the raw materials? I think in this year I should cut them into the right shape and wired them. Watering and give some broth them. In the next spring re-pot them into a nice pot and let them grow.

I'm gladly open for all advises, tricks, and any good ideas.

Thank you.

kenikol
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Re: Bonsai style suggestions

Post  Guest on Sat May 16, 2015 7:08 pm

Hello Kenikol,
I realize you asked for styling suggestions but I think first we have to address health issues. This pine looks like it had a tough time last year or two. Possibly allowed to dry out. The brown 2 year old needles may also indicate some amount of dead roots. It looks like it may be 'almost' too late to transplant for you there but were it mine, I'd risk it. My suggestion is to re-pot asap into something about the same width but shallower (something here we call 'squat 5gal') using pumice. Tie it in good so it doesn't rock in the wind. Place in dappled shade and go easy on the water for the first month. At the time of potting you can assess the health of the root system and how much 'work' can be done in the near future. Also see if there is good mycorrhiza. If not, rob some from another pine. For awhile it's going to need what green needles it has to get the roots going  but when health returns cut-back as indicated to strengthen the lower buds.  While potting see if you can make improvements to the nebari (pinned with wire). Next Spring we can look at styling. That's my 2 cents anyway. I wish you the best and hope to see pictures as you move this BP along. Cheers!
Mike


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Re: Bonsai style suggestions

Post  kenikol on Sat May 16, 2015 9:22 pm

Hello Mikeyeye,

I pull out the tree from the pot and Checked the roots. That was my second thing what I checked.
The roots look fine, not many dead roots, however I will take some pictures from the roots and post them.
When I try to dig into the soil near to the main trunk I have not found a lot of big roots, so the trunk a little bit longer than it looks like now.
Any wiring work with the main trunk or the little branches? If I wire them now they have a better shape in the next spring when the tree should be arrange into a good style form.

Thank you for your support.

kenikol
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Re: Bonsai style suggestions

Post  Guest on Sat May 16, 2015 11:27 pm

Well that is good news! Yes, a shot of the roots would be helpful. I'm quite sure this tree dried out at some point. The needles circled in green are only one year old. There should be no browning of them what-so-ever. You can even tell which way the tree was facing at the nursery when the water stopped (this picture is facing east).



If the roots are good the tree can overcome dead needles. They're pretty tough. Still, I'd hold of on any wiring at this point. It just creates additional stress which this tree does not need right now. If your photo confirms the roots are good and re-potting isn't necessary I would just go ahead and cut at the red lines. The remaining candles will open and the needles will harden around the middle of August for you there (I think). You could post another photo then and we'll see what we have. Once the strongest tips are identified these can be cut back to 2-4 needle bundles and there will be plenty of time for the new adventitious buds to show themselves before Winter. It could be your best tree will be from the lowest 10-20 shoots which now are at risk of being lost.

I know know it is. We want to get going on our trees. You can if you want but in my opinion, the 1 year old dying needle situation needs to be addressed first. I think you'll have a good tree with many more options for the future if those lower shoots can be made vigorous again.
Of course you have my support!

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Re: Bonsai style suggestions

Post  kenikol on Sun May 17, 2015 12:44 pm

Hello,

I take some pictures about the roots. The fungus culture not so bad, and new roots still growing. However the soil not the best choice for this tree. As I saw the soil made from normal sand and general potting soil (flower soil) 50-50% mixture.

The pictures:





Thanks for the help.

kenikol
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Re: Bonsai style suggestions

Post  beer city snake on Sun May 17, 2015 2:11 pm

regarding the sand/soil mixture:

that is not a terrible mix... one of AAC members groes his pines in the ground for several/many years and he just amends the soil with sand and they grow beautifully.

i got one of his last year and tried to retain quite a bit of that soil until i next re-pot it.

i am just beginning to learn about conifers, so i would listen to mikey more than me Wink

but the way your roots look and the amount of mycorrhiza tells me that the tree did well in that mix.
(especially considering that it was somewhat neglected at the nursery)

good luck

_________________

AAC Original Milwaukee Wi. Chapter - North America

By the way, the name is Kevin
link to ARBOR ARTS COLLECTIVE BLOG

beer city snake
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Re: Bonsai style suggestions

Post  Guest on Tue May 19, 2015 7:55 pm

I agree with Kevin. Those roots don't look bad at all although it also looks like you could transplant into the suggested pumice now with no problems. The strength of the dominate candles indicates this tree wants to grow itself out of the difficulties. It also occurs to me that the brown needles could be the result of sun-scald while the pot was frozen solid. You would know better what the weather conditions were in Hungary last Winter. Doesn't matter much though as the effect remains the same: dying 1 y.o. needles which makes back budding dicey. Re-pot or not I'd still cut back the strong shoots now and try to get the bottom half of this PB going again. The world doesn't need another literati with a straight trunk 'sort of' given movement with wire (in my opinion). We are trying to work with what you have Kenikol but in future I would say avoid buying any conifer with brown new growth. Keep working with this one though. This is how we learn with hands on. There is no substitute for this kind of experience.

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Re: Bonsai style suggestions

Post  kenikol on Wed May 20, 2015 10:51 pm

Hello,

thank you for the support for everyone. I think I will cut back as mikeyeye suggested and in the next spring I will repot the tree. After the spring when the new buds coming I will wire it to the new shape. Untill then I will figure it out which shape will be the best for this tree.

Until the next spring should i give some fertilizer to the tree?

In other hand what about the Ginco? I think I should cut the top 1/3 of the tree to make more branches coming from the middle of the tree.
What kind of work should have to be done in this year?

Thank you for the support

kenikol
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Re: Bonsai style suggestions

Post  M. Frary on Thu May 21, 2015 3:00 am

The pine does look to have sun scald as Mike mentioned. I would feed heavily this year to get some vigor going and see what you have next year.
As for the Ginko,it just needs to grow to gain some thickness in the trunk. Cutting anything off slows down this process.

M. Frary
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Re: Bonsai style suggestions

Post  kenikol on Sat May 23, 2015 8:04 pm

Hello All,

I do the adjustments on the pine and I'm satisfied with the results.



What do you think about it?
I think I should re-pot the tree in the next spring. In this year only feed heavily and watch what comes out in the next year.

Thanks

kenikol
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Re: Bonsai style suggestions

Post  Guest on Sat May 23, 2015 10:55 pm

I think you took too much off maybe. Needle plucking is usually only done to pines that have been developed for some time and then it's done later in Summer when we try to develop buds from the second flush.The old needles had much brown but they had also green. They would still provide photosynthesis (energy) and the older needles also are an important source of hormones and adventitious buds (future candles). I think you are still okay but maybe next time just the scissors and the 9 cuts.
Mike

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Re: Bonsai style suggestions

Post  M. Frary on Sun May 24, 2015 7:18 am

mikeyeye wrote:I think you took too much off maybe. Needle plucking is usually only done to pines that have been developed for some time and then it's done later in Summer when we try to develop buds from the second flush.The old needles had much brown but they had also green. They would still provide photosynthesis (energy) and the older needles also are an important source of hormones and adventitious buds (future candles). I think you are still okay but maybe next time just the scissors and the 9 cuts.
Mike



I hate to say it but you may be right about plucking it.

M. Frary
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Re: Bonsai style suggestions

Post  Vance Wood on Sun May 24, 2015 1:26 pm

M. Frary wrote:
mikeyeye wrote:I think you took too much off maybe. Needle plucking is usually only done to pines that have been developed for some time and then it's done later in Summer when we try to develop buds from the second flush.The old needles had much brown but they had also green. They would still provide photosynthesis (energy) and the older needles also are an important source of hormones and adventitious buds (future candles). I think you are still okay but maybe next time just the scissors and the 9 cuts.
Mike



  I hate to say it but you may be right about plucking it.

I debate the claim that this is a Black Pine, the needles are way too short to be a healthy and un-trained Black Pine. Buy looking at the trunk and the knuckle arrangements, and presence of bar branches this tree has only had confinement and resource denial that anyone can suggest as bonsai training. In short, if this tree is a Black Pine it is in too poor state of health to endure the kind of treatment you are wanting to give it. Again I am seeing the errors in the Two Needle Pine Play Book being used without understanding of what you are doing. Too often I have seen trees set back or killed because someone innocently deciding that they need to do this or that without understanding many of these techniques you find in the literature are time and age dependent. However I believe this Pine to be a Scots Pine. There is nothing about this tree that looks like a Black Pine and much that looks like a Scots----in which case you are probably OK. However; saying that I would suggest that you leave the tree alone for the rest of the year. Do not repot, do not bend, fold, staple or mutilate.

Vance Wood
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Re: Bonsai style suggestions

Post  kenikol on Sun May 24, 2015 4:36 pm

Hello,

huhh I think i did too much plucking in the tree. This is the hard way of the learning, but I'm amateur yet and that is how I learn the hard lessons. Based on your suggestions I will left the tree until the next spring. However I have two questions:

-What is exactly the "Two Needle Pine Play Book"? The English not my first language, but that sentence is not understandable for me.
- The Feeding, fertilizing is OK in this year? Should I continue or not?

Thank you in advance.

kenikol
Member


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Re: Bonsai style suggestions

Post  Vance Wood on Sun May 24, 2015 6:25 pm

Why did you pluck the needles? Did you just so this on your own? If so then that was a minor mistake. Did you do this because you read it or heard it on the INTERNET, a book, a magizine. or a video? If so that is what I meant by the Two Needle Pine play book. There are a set of procedures out there that are taught as the things to do for a Two Needle Pine. These procedures are adapted for Japanese Black Pines and work well for Japanese Black Pine but do not do well if performed at the wrong time of year or at the wrong time in the development of the tree. They also do not do well if performed on other than Japanese Black Pine or Japanese Red Pine.

Vance Wood
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Re: Bonsai style suggestions

Post  kenikol on Mon May 25, 2015 10:37 am

I usually read so much before do anything on the trees. In this case I saw many pictures about pines (does not mater what kind of type was it, now I know it was a mistake). I participate a live forming presentation where a yamadori turned into a real bonsai. And now I don't want to be timid and don't touch the tree, so I decide I do everything with courage. Now I know that was a little mistake.

What do you think if I continue the feeding in this year and the tree still alive in the next spring what should be the further steps of the forming? (step by step)

Thanks

kenikol
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Re: Bonsai style suggestions

Post  Vance Wood on Mon May 25, 2015 1:49 pm

The tree should survive. Don't do anything else to the tree. I know you want to make what we call an instant bonsai, starting with a Yamadori or pre-bonsai and having something that looks like a bonsai at the end of the day. This can only happen with mature material. This can not happen with material that is the age your Pine is unless you want to settle for a Shohin bonsai.

Vance Wood
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Re: Bonsai style suggestions

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