Pinus sylvestris, what to do after back budding?

scots do fall into fairly exact stages: first make tree form inner buds - feeding, decent soil and candle tip pruning sort this out easily. the year they form give yourself a pat on the back   . the year they form they dont really make needles so controlling strong terminal candles with partial pinching carries on as before. Yr2 they make a little bunch of short needles so again do nothing to them and carry on with the feeding and strong terminal candle nipping. If the inner buds form new candles again you can cut back safely - then you get loads more buds too and the cycle carries on.

the tree tells you if it likes your feeding, soil and watering methods as it will make more than one new candle on the tips - 3 is ideal and shows everything is at the optimum - then you get to select the candles to keep and the ones to remove. 2 new candles is OK but one will be strong and one weaker so they need balancing by pinching to equalise. if you get a majority of single candles the tree is not doing that well and you need to concentrate more on making it stronger if you want to progress to the refinement stage.
Perfect scenario is a row of back buds and 3 terminal candles in strong areas and 2 candles over a lot of the rest of the tree. with this you can style and refine properly

dont worry about big needles either - a strong tree refines far quicker.

Cheers Marcus

Yvonne Graubaek wrote:Hi Ingvar

I am sure you will have succes with your tree, as you are taking it nice and easy...
Please let us see the whole tree.

Kind regards Yvonne

Thanks! Here's what it looks like through the eye of my iPhone.

https://i.servimg.com/u/f39/15/54/64/91/image15.jpg

seeing the tree, I would let it grow freely this year. It will build up a lot of energy and next year, during this time, cut all the new extensions. But after they have elongated and collected some of the energy back that the tree put out to make them. Then during July-August and September those back buds should all get a bit stronger and you should get some new back budding.

As with all trees those we have to be patient and realize that the more photosynthetic surface a tree has the more energy the tree has. The more we pinch and take away the less strength a tree has.  

Yeah, in general you can't strengthen by taking away photosynthetic surface area. It should weaken a tree or a branch to take away needles.

To change shape, to generate backbudding to weaken a strong branch, that is where you usually reduce needles or pinch/remove candles.
I don't have tons of experience, but when we are using 'logic' or underlying principles, I don't see why one has to cut off the main candle on a very weak branch to make the backbudding it has stronger.

Ingvar Nilsson wrote:

Vance Wood wrote:

Sometimes you have to pay attention to the calendar unless you know what's going on every moment of the day with your trees and you understand the cycles of the weather and all that other good crap.  Logic and deeper understanding would tell me to pay attention to the calendar.  Through many years of experience doing Scots and Mugos I have come to the conclusion that it is not wise to fool around with the roots before the last weekend in June.  It's a deeper understanding that says it is simpler to look at the calendar than to think I have some sort of esoteric wisdom and sixth sense that tells me when it's Ok to do this and not that.  I have been growing these two trees for most of forty years.

What if somebody knocks me in the head (something I am sure many would appreciate) and I lose all of those sixth sense type thngs.    Then what would I do?

Sorry, not my intention to be disrespectful. What I ment was it's difficult to follow the rules of the calendar when I can't see the pattern. "Do this, wait 6 weeks, then do that" is borderline witchcraft. There is science behind it an the simplification works for you because you already have the knowledge. But I don't think it's a (good) method to learn something new.

But it's personal preference of course, and not always the most practical way of learning. I remember I managed to several times really scare my teacher when taking my drivers licence education... She apparently didn't agree with me that everything must be questioned.

Respectiful/disresptectful ------ that's all personal and somewhere this thread does not need to go.  What is important is the fact you are being wrong headed, and stubborn for no reason other than you think you can figure things out for your self.  I am not saying you cannot do that but why you would want to, when others have already done it for you is mind boggling.

A lot of people have trod a lot of wrong paths trying to figure out this tree with many failures along the way, and you are not going to pay attention to them??

Thomas Urban wrote:seeing the tree, I would let it grow freely this year. It will build up a lot of energy and next year, during this time, cut all the new extensions. But after they have elongated and collected some of the energy back that the tree put out to make them. Then during July-August and September those back buds should all get a bit stronger and you should get some new back budding.

As with all trees those we have to be patient :bounce:and realize that the more photosynthetic surface a tree has the more energy the tree has. The more we pinch and take away the less strength a tree has.  

After looking at this tree more closely in view of an ongoing discussion with its owner, I believe this tree needs more exposure to the sun. The needles are way too long and the buds are way too weak. I have a Scots that looks something like this and it looks like this because I lost interest in the tree and kind of let it sit in the shade. Last fall I decided to make a Literati of it and now its on the front burner again. It will take a year or two to restore its strength. I will let the new growth extend out till July then I will cut it basically off. I can furnish details if anyone is interested.

Vance Wood wrote:

Respectiful/disresptectful ------ that's all personal and somewhere this thread does not need to go.  What is important is the fact you are being wrong headed, and stubborn for no reason other than you think you can figure things out for your self.  I am not saying you cannot do that but why you would want to, when others have already done it for you is mind boggling.

A lot of people have trod a lot of wrong paths trying to figure out this tree with many failures along the way, and you are not going to pay attention to them??

Stubborn - Yes.
For no reason - I'll give you 50% on that one.   

I don't mind following advices and teachings. But I am interested to kow not only the "how" but also the "why". And pines I think are tough to understand.

You are right about the tree getting too little light. It was in a shady spot for too long (to keep it out of reach for the kids) and I placed it in the sunny spot just two days ago. I'll just let it gain strength for a few seasons and report back when I think it's strong enogh to be trimmed.

Thanks for helping, Vance, and of course the rest who commented. I really apreciate you taking your time to write here!

Ingvar Nilsson wrote:

Vance Wood wrote:

Respectiful/disresptectful ------ that's all personal and somewhere this thread does not need to go.  What is important is the fact you are being wrong headed, and stubborn for no reason other than you think you can figure things out for your self.  I am not saying you cannot do that but why you would want to, when others have already done it for you is mind boggling.

A lot of people have trod a lot of wrong paths trying to figure out this tree with many failures along the way, and you are not going to pay attention to them??

Stubborn - Yes.
For no reason - I'll give you 50% on that one.   

I don't mind following advices and teachings. But I am interested to kow not only the "how" but also the "why". And pines I think are tough to understand.

You are right about the tree getting too little light. It was in a shady spot for too long (to keep it out of reach for the kids) and I placed it in the sunny spot just two days ago. I'll just let it gain strength for a few seasons and report back when I think it's strong enogh to be trimmed.

Thanks for helping, Vance, and of course the rest who commented. I really apreciate you taking your time to write here!

Pines are difficult to understand so why would you disdane the knowledge and experience others have gained from years of hard and dedicated work?

I knew your pine was not getting enough light by looking at it in a photograph.  How do you think I knew that?  

As to the grant of 50%,  convince me that there is as sound a reason for you to think you are the only one that can figure this stuff out.  OHHHH, you might say you did not say that.  Not in so many words but your position says that is exactly what you think.

As to you interest in knowing why things are the way they are???? A lot of things that are listed and assumed as fact are BS coated in statistics. What you get here are the experinece of people that have gone down the road before you. You should at least consider that they might have it right till your experience proves it to not be so.

Vance Wood wrote:

Ingvar Nilsson wrote:

Vance Wood wrote:

Respectiful/disresptectful ------ that's all personal and somewhere this thread does not need to go.  What is important is the fact you are being wrong headed, and stubborn for no reason other than you think you can figure things out for your self.  I am not saying you cannot do that but why you would want to, when others have already done it for you is mind boggling.

A lot of people have trod a lot of wrong paths trying to figure out this tree with many failures along the way, and you are not going to pay attention to them??

Stubborn - Yes.
For no reason - I'll give you 50% on that one.   

I don't mind following advices and teachings. But I am interested to kow not only the "how" but also the "why". And pines I think are tough to understand.

You are right about the tree getting too little light. It was in a shady spot for too long (to keep it out of reach for the kids) and I placed it in the sunny spot just two days ago. I'll just let it gain strength for a few seasons and report back when I think it's strong enogh to be trimmed.

Thanks for helping, Vance, and of course the rest who commented. I really apreciate you taking your time to write here!

Pines are difficult to understand so why would you disdane the knowledge and experience others have gained from years of hard and dedicated work?

I knew your pine was not getting enough light by looking at it in a photograph.  How do you think I knew that?  

As to the grant of 50%,  convince me that there is as sound a reason for you to think you are the only one that can figure this stuff out.  OHHHH, you might say you did not say that.  Not in so many words but your position says that is exactly what you think.

As to you interest in knowing why things are the way they are????  A lot of things that are listed and assumed as fact are BS coated in statistics.  What you get here are the experinece of people that have gone down the road before you.  You should at least consider that they might have it right till your experience proves it to not be so.

Vance, I think you've got your glasses on backwards, or maybe it's the language barrier but you are misinterpreting me time after time. Anyway, I didn't come here t pick a fight. Now quit yapping and get back to yor corner.