Pinus sylvestris, what to do after back budding?

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Pinus sylvestris, what to do after back budding?

Post  Ingvar Nilsson on Fri May 30, 2014 8:14 am

Hi,
I did it! I've managed to get a good amount of backbudding on one of my old collected scots pines - only to realize I don't know what to do next... I want to cut back to the new buds and start devellop the green poofs from these places but am I supposed to do that now when they are still tiny, later on this summer after the stronger "old" candles have hardened off or let it all grow wild all summer and cut back next season?

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Re: Pinus sylvestris, what to do after back budding?

Post  Ingvar Nilsson on Fri May 30, 2014 1:15 pm

Ok, I thought about it some more and I'm thinking I should cut the (stronger) candles now to push some energy into the backbudding candles right now and then in late summer if everything looks healthy i can cut back to the backbuds of this spring. Yay or nay?

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Re: Pinus sylvestris, what to do after back budding?

Post  Thomas Urban on Fri May 30, 2014 3:28 pm

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Yn1FiRw2JBo


I think you would find this interesting. It makes this whole pine cut or pinch, or not pinch or only cut this much a hell of a lot simpler I think Smile Regarding this lesson he gives. I believe you continue to let those new candles grow along with the candles before it and only after the 3rd year when you can truly depend on those new buds to take on the new role of producing photosynthesis for the tree, can you remove the old original candles that we don't really want anyway.

I am still a newb in this regard as well, but I followed Ryan's lecture, which in essence does makes common sense, and I have had a crap load of back budding on my Scots pine. I am going to cut all the candles again soon and then wait until next year to cut all that long growth off.

Hope this helps?




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Re: Pinus sylvestris, what to do after back budding?

Post  Vance Wood on Fri May 30, 2014 4:34 pm

Thomas Urban wrote:https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Yn1FiRw2JBo


I think you would find this interesting. It makes this whole pine cut or pinch, or not pinch or only cut this much a hell of a lot simpler I think :)Regarding this lesson he gives. I believe you continue to let those new candles grow along with the candles before it and only after the 3rd year when you can truly depend on those new buds to take on the new role of producing photosynthesis for the tree, can you remove the old original candles that we don't really want anyway.

I am still a newb in this regard as well, but I followed Ryan's lecture, which in essence does makes common sense, and I have had a crap load of back budding on my Scots pine. I am going to cut all the candles again soon and then wait until next year to cut all that long growth off.

Hope this helps?




This is sound advise.  You let the new buds grow strong while over time you diminish the importance of the current growth.   But everybody is in a hurry and very often the result is a dead or ruined tree.

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Re: Pinus sylvestris, what to do after back budding?

Post  Ingvar Nilsson on Fri May 30, 2014 4:55 pm

Thomas Urban wrote:https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Yn1FiRw2JBo


I think you would find this interesting. It makes this whole pine cut or pinch, or not pinch or only cut this much a hell of a lot simpler I think :)Regarding this lesson he gives. I believe you continue to let those new candles grow along with the candles before it and only after the 3rd year when you can truly depend on those new buds to take on the new role of producing photosynthesis for the tree, can you remove the old original candles that we don't really want anyway.

I am still a newb in this regard as well, but I followed Ryan's lecture, which in essence does makes common sense, and I have had a crap load of back budding on my Scots pine. I am going to cut all the candles again soon and then wait until next year to cut all that long growth off.

Hope this helps?




Agreed, that's the pine care lecture to rule them all! I've been watching it over and over. The thing I'm not sure about now is: will I strengthen the weak inner ("new") candles best by cutting the strongest outer ("old") to redistribute the auxin(?) or will they benefit more from the bigger overall photosyntesis if I keep as much green as possible?

I'm confused with the timing of the cykle because I pruned hard for back budding in 2012 but the results were crap for 2013. Nothing really happened until this spring so I dont know if this is year 2 or 3...

I think I'll just go watch that vid again.

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Re: Pinus sylvestris, what to do after back budding?

Post  Marty Weiser on Fri May 30, 2014 5:42 pm

I tend to break off (shorten) the strong outer candles on Scots Pine to both encourage back budding and to encourage back buds to get stronger. I generally let the back buds fully develop into shoots with buds of their own before I cut back to them. Even then, I often cut back in stages - part way in the fall and then more fully after the back buds are producing their 2nd set shoot or shoots.

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Re: Pinus sylvestris, what to do after back budding?

Post  Michael Cooper on Fri May 30, 2014 7:16 pm

I found Hans van Meer's article on this subject very helpful, there are so many writers on the subject but his is very clear and easy to understand
http://www.karamotto.org/?page=40

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Re: Pinus sylvestris, what to do after back budding?

Post  Ingvar Nilsson on Sat May 31, 2014 5:29 pm

Vance Wood wrote:

This is sound advise.  You let the new buds grow strong while over time you diminish the importance of the current growth.   But everybody is in a hurry and very often the result is a dead or ruined tree.

Ok, please have a look at this picture:



This is back budding close to the end growth but there is similar back budding even further back on many branches.

I've read a lot and watched the Ryan Neil lectures since yesterday and it's pretty clear now. Only thing I don't get is if I need to cut the strong outer candles (leaving 4-5 needles) to allocate energy back along the branch to make the much weaker backbuds stronger.

Or

Is it better to leve all candles alone for the season to let the tree accumulate as much energy as possible by keeping a big leaf mass?

As the goal is to make it more compact I will cut away most outer growth later when styling so the question is not about estethics, only energy distribution and keeping the tree healthy and vigourous (in the right places). I think I'm answering my own question over and over: Let it be for now and prune back in winter or go for one more cycle next year with candle pruning for energy balancing in 2015, right?

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Re: Pinus sylvestris, what to do after back budding?

Post  arihato on Sat May 31, 2014 5:47 pm

Although I value Ryan Neil's opinion on JBP and JWP very much as he made a lot of sense for me in the maintenance of these.
But Pinus sylvestris or Scots Pine is a totally different animal and Ryan does not claim to have worked a lot on the species.

Hans van Meer has worked extensively with this species, so I would look to his site for help and guidance, as Michael Cooper also suggested.

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Re: Pinus sylvestris, what to do after back budding?

Post  Marty Weiser on Sat May 31, 2014 5:55 pm

The terminal candle is not particularly strong so I would probably leave it. If it were a little stronger I would have broken the tip out of it before it started to open. If it were really strong I would have broken out 1/2 - 2/3 of it. I would probably not remove it until the back buds had set new buds. This is a bit more conservative than Hans van Meer's article that would cut it off after it opens a bit more to push even more of the strength into the back buds, but to my eye the tree looks too weak for this. I have P. sylvestris from this strength to a couple that are strong enough where I am going to once again try cutting off the new, outer shoots. I nearly lost a nice one where I cut off the shoots when it was not strong enough - I had nice short needles, but I also ended up with root rot since it did not grow strongly enough to keep the pot from being waterlogged. Three years later with a better draining mix it is growing well, but not quite well enough to cut off the outer shoots. The ones I plan tot cut off the shoots are putting out shoots a bit more like P. thunbergii than P. sylvestris at the moment.

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Re: Pinus sylvestris, what to do after back budding?

Post  Glaucus on Sat May 31, 2014 6:58 pm

Hmmm, I guess it is a question of if the main goal is to generate backbudding or to balance strength.

With my Scot's pines in development, I will try to prune the candles on all but the sacrificial branches and leave just a few needles.
The timing I am looking for is when invested energy has been regained and there is still enough time for backbudding to happen and to harden off properly before winter.

That one branch you show, it already has backbudding. What it needs is to become stronger. So why cut the main candle?

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Re: Pinus sylvestris, what to do after back budding?

Post  Ingvar Nilsson on Sat May 31, 2014 8:13 pm

Glaucus wrote:Hmmm, I guess it is a question of if the main goal is to generate backbudding or to balance strength.

With my Scot's pines in development, I will try to prune the candles on all but the sacrificial branches and leave just a few needles.
The timing I am looking for is when invested energy has been regained and there is still enough time for backbudding to happen and to harden off properly before winter.

That one branch you show, it already has backbudding. What it needs is to become stronger. So why cut the main candle?

The idea to cut the main candle was to put more energy in the backbuds but on this tree right now, I only got the new backbuds and the rest is just sacrifice branches (thanks for using that phrase, it was the final piece of info to clear it up for me). Looking at it like that the plan is simply lots of sun and fertilizer for the rest of the season. Next season is pinching for balance and then if all goes well cut back and rough styling next fall.

I have read the Van Meer article many times but as english is neither his or my first language it's often confusing. He swithes words between using candles/buds/shoots and cutting/pruning/pinching for what (in the article) seem to be the same thing and also between Sylvestris and Mugo care. He's also very hard on the trees. Van Meer is using the stick and Ryan Neil is using the carrot...

The Ryan Neil lecture for single flush pines is very easy to understand, compared to most other sourzes. I prefer the use of logic and deeper understanding of the process rather than just follow a a set of rules and the calender.

Thanks everybody, you helped a lot!

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Re: Pinus sylvestris, what to do after back budding?

Post  Guest on Sat May 31, 2014 8:22 pm

Hi Ingvar

I am sure you will have succes with your tree, as you are taking it nice and easy...
Please let us see the whole tree.

Kind regards Yvonne

Guest
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Re: Pinus sylvestris, what to do after back budding?

Post  Vance Wood on Sat May 31, 2014 10:01 pm

Ingvar Nilsson wrote:
Glaucus wrote:Hmmm, I guess it is a question of if the main goal is to generate backbudding or to balance strength.

With my Scot's pines in development, I will try to prune the candles on all but the sacrificial branches and leave just a few needles.
The timing I am looking for is when invested energy has been regained and there is still enough time for backbudding to happen and to harden off properly before winter.

That one branch you show, it already has backbudding. What it needs is to become stronger. So why cut the main candle?

The idea to cut the main candle was to put more energy in the backbuds but on this tree right now, I only got the new backbuds and the rest is just sacrifice branches (thanks for using that phrase, it was the final piece of info to clear it up for me). Looking at it like that the plan is simply lots of sun and fertilizer for the rest of the season. Next season is pinching for balance and then if all goes well cut back and rough styling next fall.

I have read the Van Meer article many times but as english is neither his or my first language it's often confusing. He swithes words between using candles/buds/shoots and cutting/pruning/pinching for what (in the article) seem to be the same thing and also between Sylvestris and Mugo care. He's also very hard on the trees. Van Meer is using the stick and Ryan Neil is using the carrot...

The Ryan Neil lecture for single flush pines is very easy to understand, compared to most other sourzes. I prefer the use of logic and deeper understanding of the process rather than just follow a a set of rules and the calender.

Thanks everybody, you helped a lot!

Sometimes you have to pay attention to the calendar unless you know what's going on every moment of the day with your trees and you understand the cycles of the weather and all that other good crap.  Logic and deeper understanding would tell me to pay attention to the calendar.  Through many years of experience doing Scots and Mugos I have come to the conclusion that it is not wise to fool around with the roots before the last weekend in June.  It's a deeper understanding that says it is simpler to look at the calendar than to think I have some sort of esoteric wisdom and sixth sense that tells me when it's Ok to do this and not that.  I have been growing these two trees for most of forty years.

What if somebody knocks me in the head (something I am sure many would appreciate) and I lose all of those sixth sense type thngs. Then what would I do?

Vance Wood
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Re: Pinus sylvestris, what to do after back budding?

Post  Ingvar Nilsson on Sat May 31, 2014 11:29 pm

Vance Wood wrote:

Sometimes you have to pay attention to the calendar unless you know what's going on every moment of the day with your trees and you understand the cycles of the weather and all that other good crap.  Logic and deeper understanding would tell me to pay attention to the calendar.  Through many years of experience doing Scots and Mugos I have come to the conclusion that it is not wise to fool around with the roots before the last weekend in June.  It's a deeper understanding that says it is simpler to look at the calendar than to think I have some sort of esoteric wisdom and sixth sense that tells me when it's Ok to do this and not that.  I have been growing these two trees for most of forty years.

What if somebody knocks me in the head (something I am sure many would appreciate) and I lose all of those sixth sense type thngs.    Then what would I do?

Sorry, not my intention to be disrespectful. What I ment was it's difficult to follow the rules of the calendar when I can't see the pattern. "Do this, wait 6 weeks, then do that" is borderline witchcraft. There is science behind it an the simplification works for you because you already have the knowledge. But I don't think it's a (good) method to learn something new.

But it's personal preference of course, and not always the most practical way of learning. I remember I managed to several times really scare my teacher when taking my drivers licence education... She apparently didn't agree with me that everything must be questioned.

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Re: Pinus sylvestris, what to do after back budding?

Post  marcus watts on Sat May 31, 2014 11:49 pm

scots do fall into fairly exact stages: first make tree form inner buds - feeding, decent soil and candle tip pruning sort this out easily. the year they form give yourself a pat on the back  Very Happy . the year they form they dont really make needles so controlling strong terminal candles with partial pinching carries on as before. Yr2 they make a little bunch of short needles so again do nothing to them and carry on with the feeding and strong terminal candle nipping. If the inner buds form new candles again you can cut back safely - then you get loads more buds too and the cycle carries on.

the tree tells you if it likes your feeding, soil and watering methods as it will make more than one new candle on the tips - 3 is ideal and shows everything is at the optimum - then you get to select the candles to keep and the ones to remove. 2 new candles is OK but one will be strong and one weaker so they need balancing by pinching to equalise. if you get a majority of single candles the tree is not doing that well and you need to concentrate more on making it stronger if you want to progress to the refinement stage.
Perfect scenario is a row of back buds and 3 terminal candles in strong areas and 2 candles over a lot of the rest of the tree. with this you can style and refine properly

dont worry about big needles either - a strong tree refines far quicker.

Cheers Marcus

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Re: Pinus sylvestris, what to do after back budding?

Post  Ingvar Nilsson on Sun Jun 01, 2014 9:01 am

Yvonne Graubaek wrote:Hi Ingvar

I am sure you will have succes with your tree, as you are taking it nice and easy...
Please let us see the whole tree.

Kind regards Yvonne

Thanks! Here's what it looks like through the eye of my iPhone.

http://i39.servimg.com/u/f39/15/54/64/91/image15.jpg

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Re: Pinus sylvestris, what to do after back budding?

Post  Thomas Urban on Sun Jun 01, 2014 9:50 am

seeing the tree, I would let it grow freely this year. It will build up a lot of energy and next year, during this time, cut all the new extensions. But after they have elongated and collected some of the energy back that the tree put out to make them. Then during July-August and September those back buds should all get a bit stronger and you should get some new back budding.

As with all trees those we have to be patient bounce and realize that the more photosynthetic surface a tree has the more energy the tree has. The more we pinch and take away the less strength a tree has.  

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Re: Pinus sylvestris, what to do after back budding?

Post  Glaucus on Sun Jun 01, 2014 2:36 pm

Yeah, in general you can't strengthen by taking away photosynthetic surface area. It should weaken a tree or a branch to take away needles.

To change shape, to generate backbudding to weaken a strong branch, that is where you usually reduce needles or pinch/remove candles.
I don't have tons of experience, but when we are using 'logic' or underlying principles, I don't see why one has to cut off the main candle on a very weak branch to make the backbudding it has stronger.

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Re: Pinus sylvestris, what to do after back budding?

Post  Vance Wood on Sun Jun 01, 2014 2:55 pm

Ingvar Nilsson wrote:
Vance Wood wrote:

Sometimes you have to pay attention to the calendar unless you know what's going on every moment of the day with your trees and you understand the cycles of the weather and all that other good crap.  Logic and deeper understanding would tell me to pay attention to the calendar.  Through many years of experience doing Scots and Mugos I have come to the conclusion that it is not wise to fool around with the roots before the last weekend in June.  It's a deeper understanding that says it is simpler to look at the calendar than to think I have some sort of esoteric wisdom and sixth sense that tells me when it's Ok to do this and not that.  I have been growing these two trees for most of forty years.

What if somebody knocks me in the head (something I am sure many would appreciate) and I lose all of those sixth sense type thngs.    Then what would I do?

Sorry, not my intention to be disrespectful. What I ment was it's difficult to follow the rules of the calendar when I can't see the pattern. "Do this, wait 6 weeks, then do that" is borderline witchcraft. There is science behind it an the simplification works for you because you already have the knowledge. But I don't think it's a (good) method to learn something new.

But it's personal preference of course, and not always the most practical way of learning. I remember I managed to several times really scare my teacher when taking my drivers licence education... She apparently didn't agree with me that everything must be questioned.

Respectiful/disresptectful ------ that's all personal and somewhere this thread does not need to go.  What is important is the fact you are being wrong headed, and stubborn for no reason other than you think you can figure things out for your self.  I am not saying you cannot do that but why you would want to, when others have already done it for you is mind boggling.

A lot of people have trod a lot of wrong paths trying to figure out this tree with many failures along the way, and you are not going to pay attention to them??

Vance Wood
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Re: Pinus sylvestris, what to do after back budding?

Post  Vance Wood on Sun Jun 01, 2014 3:53 pm

Thomas Urban wrote:seeing the tree, I would let it grow freely this year. It will build up a lot of energy and next year, during this time, cut all the new extensions. But after they have elongated and collected some of the energy back that the tree put out to make them. Then during July-August and September those back buds should all get a bit stronger and you should get some new back budding.

As with all trees those we have to be patient :bounce:and realize that the more photosynthetic surface a tree has the more energy the tree has. The more we pinch and take away the less strength a tree has.  

After looking at this tree more closely in view of an ongoing discussion with its owner, I believe this tree needs more exposure to the sun. The needles are way too long and the buds are way too weak. I have a Scots that looks something like this and it looks like this because I lost interest in the tree and kind of let it sit in the shade. Last fall I decided to make a Literati of it and now its on the front burner again. It will take a year or two to restore its strength. I will let the new growth extend out till July then I will cut it basically off. I can furnish details if anyone is interested.

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Re: Pinus sylvestris, what to do after back budding?

Post  Ingvar Nilsson on Sun Jun 01, 2014 7:22 pm

Vance Wood wrote:

Respectiful/disresptectful ------ that's all personal and somewhere this thread does not need to go.  What is important is the fact you are being wrong headed, and stubborn for no reason other than you think you can figure things out for your self.  I am not saying you cannot do that but why you would want to, when others have already done it for you is mind boggling.

A lot of people have trod a lot of wrong paths trying to figure out this tree with many failures along the way, and you are not going to pay attention to them??

Stubborn - Yes.
For no reason - I'll give you 50% on that one.  Wink 

I don't mind following advices and teachings. But I am interested to kow not only the "how" but also the "why". And pines I think are tough to understand.

You are right about the tree getting too little light. It was in a shady spot for too long (to keep it out of reach for the kids) and I placed it in the sunny spot just two days ago. I'll just let it gain strength for a few seasons and report back when I think it's strong enogh to be trimmed.

Thanks for helping, Vance, and of course the rest who commented. I really apreciate you taking your time to write here!

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Re: Pinus sylvestris, what to do after back budding?

Post  Vance Wood on Mon Jun 02, 2014 12:50 am

Ingvar Nilsson wrote:
Vance Wood wrote:

Respectiful/disresptectful ------ that's all personal and somewhere this thread does not need to go.  What is important is the fact you are being wrong headed, and stubborn for no reason other than you think you can figure things out for your self.  I am not saying you cannot do that but why you would want to, when others have already done it for you is mind boggling.

A lot of people have trod a lot of wrong paths trying to figure out this tree with many failures along the way, and you are not going to pay attention to them??

Stubborn - Yes.
For no reason - I'll give you 50% on that one.  Wink 

I don't mind following advices and teachings. But I am interested to kow not only the "how" but also the "why". And pines I think are tough to understand.

You are right about the tree getting too little light. It was in a shady spot for too long (to keep it out of reach for the kids) and I placed it in the sunny spot just two days ago. I'll just let it gain strength for a few seasons and report back when I think it's strong enogh to be trimmed.

Thanks for helping, Vance, and of course the rest who commented. I really apreciate you taking your time to write here!

Pines are difficult to understand so why would you disdane the knowledge and experience others have gained from years of hard and dedicated work?

I knew your pine was not getting enough light by looking at it in a photograph.  How do you think I knew that?  

As to the grant of 50%,  convince me that there is as sound a reason for you to think you are the only one that can figure this stuff out.  OHHHH, you might say you did not say that.  Not in so many words but your position says that is exactly what you think.

As to you interest in knowing why things are the way they are???? A lot of things that are listed and assumed as fact are BS coated in statistics. What you get here are the experinece of people that have gone down the road before you. You should at least consider that they might have it right till your experience proves it to not be so.

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Re: Pinus sylvestris, what to do after back budding?

Post  Ingvar Nilsson on Tue Jun 03, 2014 12:55 pm

Vance Wood wrote:
Ingvar Nilsson wrote:
Vance Wood wrote:

Respectiful/disresptectful ------ that's all personal and somewhere this thread does not need to go.  What is important is the fact you are being wrong headed, and stubborn for no reason other than you think you can figure things out for your self.  I am not saying you cannot do that but why you would want to, when others have already done it for you is mind boggling.

A lot of people have trod a lot of wrong paths trying to figure out this tree with many failures along the way, and you are not going to pay attention to them??

Stubborn - Yes.
For no reason - I'll give you 50% on that one.  Wink 

I don't mind following advices and teachings. But I am interested to kow not only the "how" but also the "why". And pines I think are tough to understand.

You are right about the tree getting too little light. It was in a shady spot for too long (to keep it out of reach for the kids) and I placed it in the sunny spot just two days ago. I'll just let it gain strength for a few seasons and report back when I think it's strong enogh to be trimmed.

Thanks for helping, Vance, and of course the rest who commented. I really apreciate you taking your time to write here!

Pines are difficult to understand so why would you disdane the knowledge and experience others have gained from years of hard and dedicated work?

I knew your pine was not getting enough light by looking at it in a photograph.  How do you think I knew that?  

As to the grant of 50%,  convince me that there is as sound a reason for you to think you are the only one that can figure this stuff out.  OHHHH, you might say you did not say that.  Not in so many words but your position says that is exactly what you think.

As to you interest in knowing why things are the way they are????  A lot of things that are listed and assumed as fact are BS coated in statistics.  What you get here are the experinece of people that have gone down the road before you.  You should at least consider that they might have it right till your experience proves it to not be so.

Vance, I think you've got your glasses on backwards, or maybe it's the language barrier but you are misinterpreting me time after time. Anyway, I didn't come here t pick a fight. Now quit yapping and get back to yor corner.

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