Re: Fooled by Tanuki

Guest Sat Jun 22, 2013 10:36 pm

Khaimraj,
To offer something then ask for recompense is deception. The book is 'Labyrinths' by Jorge Luis Borges, I am more than happy to send my copy for you to enjoy (even tho it is breaking into pages thru use) What a Face

Matt

Hoo,
lol!

thankyou for cutting thru the words to find truth!
Matt

Leo Schordje Sun Jun 23, 2013 9:16 pm

Observing bonsai is like looking at a fine sculpture, or other piece of art. For many at the personal level, if you respond to it emotionally, or intelectually or some mix of the two, it is a successful, a good piece of art.

Judging bonsai is like judging art. A completely arbitrary act. The rules are artificial creations of groups of people. Possibly necessary in terms of the logistics of organizing an event, but it is all made up. Discussions of show rules quickly becomes tied up in the local politics of the group putting on the show, good people with very human flaws, ego's clashing, disagreements and disappointments. And the work product of committies is always something to be skeptical of. While I have never organized a bonsai show I have organized several fairly good sized orchid shows. I have sat on the committies drawing of the "Show Schedule" or "Show Rules''. I know how arbitrary it can get. AND I know rules can be changed. All you need is the people involved in an event to take an active part. You know how you end up on a committee? Make it to two meetings in a row. By the time you've shown up the third time someone will ask you if you want to help out. Smile

Personally, if the technique is done well, there is nothing wrong with it. If the evidence of the technique does not interfere with the enjoyment of the image or illusion presented by the tree, then it is good.

It is important to play fair and follow the rules for any show you enter. It is also important to recognize that just because one show says no tanuki, that does not dimish the value of a tree that happens to be a tanuki, it just means that the tanuki in question should not be entered in that particular show.

If I were to end up on a bonsai show committee, organizing a show, I would vote to allow Tanuki. No special designation for them. If it looks good enough that the technique, and the evidence of the technique, doesn't detract from the image created, then it is good enough to be show with trees created by other techniques.

I know Jun has had a major hand in organizing a show, I suspect he started this thread because of his experience with that. More members of this forum should get involved with their local societies and help out with organizing shows. You will develop more sympathy with those in your local clubs that have been doing this for years, and you can then directly give your input to the very people writing the rules for that particular show. Get involved.

As Russle said; "If Tanuki is good enough for Kokufu-ten, then it is good enough for me". And thanks to Hoo for your post.

Guest Mon Jun 24, 2013 1:31 am

Thanks for sharing your thought Leo.

In this part of the world (South East Asia) We would never allow full tanuki in a show...grafting smaller leaf variety is the limit that I have seen and probably the only one we would allow. I personally see Tanuki as a short cut to create finish bonsai, and if we allow it here it will encourage more people to get more lazy and take the short cut. In our climate where we can grow bonsai 4 times faster than in colder climate we could probably finish a good Tanuki in two year time and it would not be good for those who believe that bonsai is an art of patience.

And we rarely follow Japanese designs and Standards. We tend to make our own, based on what we think suits our taste, culture and environment (nature).

regards,
jun:)

tap pi lu Mon Jun 24, 2013 10:45 am

I love Bonsai, but I think the tanuki: artistic illusion.
* Product Tanuki as a fashion model on the catwalk
* Products Bonsai fully reflect the effort and the creation of the artist through May each year.
* A Bonsai artists can quickly create 1 tanuki.
* Whereas an artist Tanuki can not create 1 Bonsai.

Joao Santos Tue Jun 25, 2013 2:05 pm

Personaly I do tanuki (attaching a young tree to piece of deadwood) only for fun and in a "recycling" process of dead material and using the same species as the dead one. This way becomes possible to mantain some good trunks with nice bright foliage. Not to enter competitions but just for the fun and self pleasing.

Between this, one can aprentice much with trees, their growth habbits and some experiences too.

João Santos

Leo Schordje Wed Jun 26, 2013 12:10 am

I put a little more thought into this. I think those that dismiss Tanuki as being less than any other technique used in bonsai are probably not being fair. It takes real skill, and many years of growing out to make a convincing Tanuki. I have seen at least half a hundred, maybe more, shown at local club shows over the years, only one or two were well enough executed that the technique was not obvious. It really is dificult to do a Tanuki well enough that it doesn't show enough to interfere with the image. 99% of Tanuki look contrived. So when a tanuki is done well enough to 'pass', it should be recognized for the high level of artistic skill and horticultural skill it takes to create a good Tanuki. I think it is unfair to dismiss them out of hand. Its a valid technique, and requires thought, artistic sensibilities and horticultural skill to create one that is good. The fusing of old dead wood to a young tree is only step one. The rest of what goes into bringing a Tanuki into show condition is traditional bonsai. Artistic talent and horticultural skill. I think there should be no barriers or prohibitions to the exhibiting of Tanuki.

Most of the Tanuki I have seen were exhibited under the category of Tanuki. No one should deliberately break show rules. But show rules are actually pretty easy to change. I believe shows should allow Tanuki to compete with bonsai created by more traditional techniques in an open show. I don't have any 'fear' that they will bump out traditional technique trees from the "Best of Show" category, as so few Tanuki are done well enough.

But I really feel it is being close-minded to just off handedly decree that "Tanuki are not Bonsai". It takes years of traditional bonsai techniques to make a Tanuki look convincing as a bonsai. A tanuki is bonsai.

My personal thoughts, if I ever had a Tanuki that looked good enough I might want to show it I would. Of course only in shows that allow Tanuki. And most club shows I have been to either have no prohibition on them, allowing them to compete will all other entries, or have a separate category just for Tanuki. Either scenario is acceptable to me. Only the complete ban on Tanuki is what I am arguing against.

Todd Ellis Sat Jul 06, 2013 4:08 pm

I agree with you Leo!

Velodog2 Sat Jul 06, 2013 9:26 pm

I also agree with Leo. I have made only one attempt at tanuki. That was at least six years ago and it is still not ready for styling as I am still encouraging growth in the live veins. I used some techniques I dreamed up myself to hopefully provide a more convincing result. Hopefully they work, but either way a quick shortcut to a good bonsai this is not.

Guest Sun Jul 07, 2013 2:30 pm

The word "Tanuki" in bonsai term were inspired by Japanese Mythology. a mythical badger like animal that change its form,,,,Its sole purpose, in myth or in bonsai, is to TRICK people in believing in something that it is not.

regards,
jun:)

Xavier de Lapeyre Sun Jul 07, 2013 6:26 pm

jun wrote:The word "Tanuki" in bonsai term were inspired by Japanese Mythology. a mythical badger like animal that change its form,,,,Its sole purpose, in myth or in bonsai, is to TRICK people in believing in something that it is not.

regards,
jun:)

Where's the like button?
Ahh here it is :

Fooled by Tanuki - Page 2 Webtoriaux-afglqsx178-Facebook-like-button

Leo Schordje Mon Jul 08, 2013 12:43 am

jun wrote:The word "Tanuki" in bonsai term were inspired by Japanese Mythology. a mythical badger like animal that change its form,,,,Its sole purpose, in myth or in bonsai, is to TRICK people in believing in something that it is not.
regards,
jun:)

I respect your opinion, but will likely disagree with you until I see the presence of Tanuki in shows become a problem. So far, I haven't seen any problems. The vast majority of Tanuki just don't compete well with traditional technique bonsai, so I have not seen them get much recognition.

Like I said, I will always follow the show rules, so if a show prohibits Tanuki, I won't show one there. But should I try to make one for my own enjoyment, it won't matter to me that some shows won't allow it to be displayed for competition. It will simply stay at home.

I do dislike fakes, plastic flowers really irritate me, so I understand part of the objection to Tanuki. But I do like some of the immitation ivory netsuki's I have seen. When well done they look good & are much more affordable than real ivory.

ogie Mon Jul 08, 2013 3:15 am

Jun ,
I know how you feel but IMHO its up tp each individual how they feel, if they feel proud of what their doing so be it.. It gives us more reason to strive harder to make our bonsai more beautiful to compete with the so called " tanuki ".
Art comes in many form some may agree or disagree with you, but the fun part of it is we have something to discuss with,like Suiseki....different opinion but at the end of the day we have one thing in common... The love of Bonsai and other hobbies...
Plus we meet lots of friends the likes from IBC
Regards,
Alex8)

Guest Mon Jul 08, 2013 3:52 am

Leo Schordje wrote:
jun wrote:The word "Tanuki" in bonsai term were inspired by Japanese Mythology. a mythical badger like animal that change its form,,,,Its sole purpose, in myth or in bonsai, is to TRICK people in believing in something that it is not.
regards,
jun:)

I respect your opinion, but will likely disagree with you ....

Hi Leo.
It is not my opinion. this is the essence and literal description or meaning of tanuki. this is also the origin of the word "Tanuki" in the bonsai language.

This following statement also is not my opinion but a fact, as stated even by Russell who has his own personal experience in his younger days (some 40 years ago hehe) in Japan. The term tanuki was viewed as a "derogatory term".

regards,
jun:)

Guest Mon Jul 08, 2013 4:51 am

A real funny bonsai story.

...There is this story where a group of "bonsai tourists" who visited japan went on a tour in an old and very traditional bonsai garden. Where the visitors watched and amazed on how traditional works in such( almost )sacred garden were conducted in a very ritualistic manner. All the garden workers wore the traditional clothes, they do rituals before watering, they do the watering using traditional watering cans were they fetched waters from a nearby natural source. They also witnessed how sacred the other bonsai chores are to this old sacred garden...One of the people from the garden explains to the tourists -that, still this is the way things were done in this old fashioned garden for centuries...they proudly kept the tradition alive, they are the guardians of the sacred bonsai tradition...

Then as the bewildered tourists move on to another section of the sacred garden, One member of the tour group realized that he forgot some of his stuff in the other section where they have just left. Together with his buddy he went back... and upon reaching the same area where the sacred rituals took place, they saw the same guys who wore the kimonos and fetching water using watering can, Still they are watering the garden BUT this time only in their shorts and shirts and puffing some cigarettes and horsing around while using high tech water sprayer.

Just like the "tanuki"- Things are not really what they pretend to be...

regards,
jun:evil:

PS.
...Do you want to hear the story of a very famous and well respected (now) western guy who went to Japan for apprenticeship but went back home frustrated after seeing his master as a "Tanuki"...hehehe. that story my friends we can't talk openly here in the forum. might do it over some beers though...hehehe.

CraftyTanuki Mon Jul 08, 2013 11:43 am

Hahahaha some people take bonsai to serious at times.

lennard Mon Jul 08, 2013 4:21 pm

"Its sole purpose,............. is to TRICK people in believing in something that it is not. "

"Things are not really what they pretend to be..."

Replace the words in blue with the word "Bonsai" ?

Evil or Very Mad

Lennard

Guest Mon Jul 08, 2013 4:48 pm

lennard wrote:"Its sole purpose,............. is to TRICK people in believing in something that it is not. "

"Things are not really what they pretend to be..."

Replace the words in blue with the word "Bonsai" ?

Lennard

I beg to disagree Lennard, "Bonsai" are not pretending to be something else ( maybe you are pertaining to a tree). Bonsai really is a tree and not pretending to be one. that is why it is called a "tree in a pot". we just make them smaller in scale compared with the one we find in nature.

Bonsai objective/purpose is not to trick people in believing that it is a tree, because it is really a tree. The objective is to create small versions of trees...and that is not just the sole purpose of creating bonsai but just one of the dozens of reasons.

regards,
jun:)

Leo Schordje Mon Jul 08, 2013 4:51 pm

Hi Jun,
Thanks, I too would love to hear more stories over a beer. I do get that many simply do not include Tanuki as being Bonsai. I am not emotionally distraught over the issue, it would never interfere with my enjoyment of a good bonsai show or a good joke, beer or meal. Very Happy

Guest Mon Jul 08, 2013 4:58 pm

Leo Schordje wrote:Hi Jun,
Thanks, I too would love to hear more stories over a beer. I do get that many simply do not include Tanuki as being Bonsai. I am not emotionally distraught over the issue, it would never interfere with my enjoyment of a good bonsai show or a good joke, beer or meal.

Yup! everything we do here is just for the discussion of things. Nothing personal, the more discussions we have the more we will learn. Like I said I too are making tanuki, and I have nothing against the method and yes it is not easy creating a believable tree using this technique. but there is a border for everything.

regards,
jun:)

lennard Mon Jul 08, 2013 7:35 pm

jun wrote:
Yup! everything we do here is just for the discussion of things. Nothing personal, the more discussions we have the more we will learn. Like I said I too are making tanuki, and I have nothing against the method and yes it is not easy creating a believable tree using this technique. but there is a border for everything.

I do agree on there is a limit on when it comes to fooling people. If a "trick", like a tanuki, becomes a permanent feature of the bonsai I think we must accept it. Attaching flowers or fruits or leaves to a tree is cheating to me.

I have a Ficus and a Celtis grown from roots - they don't have real trunks. If I grow these roots in such a way fooling people in believing they are trunks, I think I have done a great job then! I am also experimenting on fusing the tubers of Baobab to form a thicker trunk quicker- if people perceive this fused tubers as a trunk - I will be very happy!

The other case I am having with one of my Buddleja, which portrays an very old struggling tree, have a few dead branches with dead twiggy growth. I have treated the dead branches and twiggy growth, but these dead branches will not last forever. If I loose these dead branches I could just as well throw the tree in the fire - it will never be the same as what I have planned for the tree. If I replace the dead branches with "new" ones one day, I am not going to see them as cheating/tricks/fooling because I am replacing only what I have planned for the tree. I can graft some growth in there, build the branch and then let it die again......but that would be silly!

With some Acacia here, we get quite big pieces of bark shedding certain times of the year. If a piece of bark is shed and if it causes short term taper, or whatever problems, I will have no problem to glue that piece of bark back again.

I also use moss to hide nebari problems when showing a tree.

Again, if the rules of a competition states that no tanuki, no roots as trunks, no deadwood added, no fusing is allowed, no moss used, one is morally tied to not enter such a tree- that would be cheating yourself if your technique is so well done. No one is holding a gun to one's head to enter any competition!

If it is about not being a believable/acceptable bonsai- I strongly disagree.

?

Lennard

marcus watts Mon Jul 08, 2013 10:53 pm

Tanuki is only a trick Jun if the owner tries to deceive the viewers - if he openly says "this is a tree i attached to another trunk and I did it so well you can't tell" then it is just a bonsai - same as all the others. the entire art of bonsai is about manipulation of nature - the hobby would not exist without it so the trees that are genuinely good enough for award and recognition should get it regardless of how they were made

I know this thread began based on a writing by Walter, and it has explored that Tanuki can be many forms of grafting to make a poor tree better - Walters beautiful multi trunked clump acers (and mine and many other readers trees) were grafted in japan to form the trees artifically, we all know this and i still see up to date blog posts of these trunk grafted trees quite often - (today in fact) so people cant really criticise one form of tanuki while promoting another can they?

coh Wed Jul 10, 2013 6:04 am

jun wrote:

I beg to disagree Lennard, "Bonsai" are not pretending to be something else ( maybe you are pertaining to a tree). Bonsai really is a tree and not pretending to be one. that is why it is called a "tree in a pot". we just make them smaller in scale compared with the one we find in nature.

Bonsai objective/purpose is not to trick people in believing that it is a tree, because it is really a tree. The objective is to create small versions of trees...and that is not just the sole purpose of creating bonsai but just one of the dozens of reasons.

regards,
jun:)

What about the use of shrubs to create bonsai? Azalea, boxwood, cotoneaster, and many others are not "trees" but are used to create tree-like forms. So some "bonsai" are really not a "tree in a pot", but "a shrub trained to look like a tree in a pot".

Ashiod Wed Jul 10, 2013 8:10 am

jun wrote:
With this idea any newbie can compete in a highly prestigeous competition and can even easily win, and how can anybody stop them, they might just reply, they are doing it in Kokufu, why not here...just a thought.

This made me laugh a bit. As a genuine, 100% real newbie, I can assure you with the utmost sincerity that I and the great many other newbies in the world cannot create something competition worthy with legitimate material, much less something patched together with advanced horticultural techniques.

To be honest, I really can't see why this is a huge deal. If you're able to create something convincing or beautiful (the juniper posted earlier I love you

) using such advanced horticultural methods, why shouldn't you be able to show it off? Trees grow over, in, and around some seriously bizarre things in nature, so why make a big fuss if someone decides to grow their tree over a bit of old wood or graft on new foliage if it's going to be permanent? I could see how it would be an issue when adding branches that are only temporary, but I would think that such temporary additions would be obvious to judges and experienced growers. If you're getting to the point where winning a prize is more important than growing a healthy tree, you're probably in the hobby for the wrong reasons.

Seriously...
Fooled by Tanuki - Page 2 LW_01

Weird....

Fooled by Tanuki - Page 2 Just-a-tree-growing-through-a-car

Things...
http://www.nowthatsnifty.com/2010/02/22-trees-growing-around-objects.html#.Ud0IS_mQn9M

Guest Wed Jul 10, 2013 1:49 pm

Ashoid,
Do what ever you want. I don't care what it is, if it makes you happy just do it.

And you are wrong about a newbie who cannot compete and won...I can personally guarantee you that.

And if you think it is not a big deal, then it is not...nobody here is forcing anybody to do things, we are just discussing "Tanuki'.

Nice pictures by the way, you should visit some of my older post here in IBC, you might find something (weird) that is already in "bonsai form"... Rolling Eyes

regards,
jun:)

Guest Wed Jul 10, 2013 2:37 pm

Chris,

maybe you should open your thread regarding definition of "bonsai" or something like that, I'll try answer you there. I don't find anything in your words related to tanuki,,, now maybe, you'll try to make some connections to tanuki...hehe.
This is usually the reason where topics starts to leave its course of the original discussion and a heated debate starts and then eventually thread will be closed.

"A shrub trained to look like a tree in a pot" is not a tanuki...Is it?

regards,
jun:scratch:

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