Fooled by Tanuki

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Re: Fooled by Tanuki

Post  coh on Wed Jul 10, 2013 2:56 pm

Hi Jun,

No, I'm not going to open a new thread about this topic. I was just curious about the double standard implied by your comments, i.e. why is it OK to use a shrub to "pretend" you have a tree in a pot, but not OK to use a tanuki approach to do the same? You opened the door to that line of discussion...but if you'd rather ignore the contradiction, that's fine with me. But why is it OK to "trick" a viewer into believing you have a giant oak tree in a pot when it's really a boxwood, but not OK to "trick" him into believing you have a gnarly, deadwood-filled weatherbeaten old mountain tree with a tanuki juniper?

Perhaps the word itself does have negative connotations (from the original Japanese), but that's not all there is to it - is it?

Anyway, I won't comment further unless responses warrant it.

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Should tanuki be allowed?

Post  lennard on Wed Jul 10, 2013 4:39 pm

jun wrote:
This is usually the reason where topics starts to leave its course of the original discussion and a heated debate starts and then eventually thread will be closed.

jun wrote:
Since they are doing it even in kokufu, can we also allow tanuki in contests elswhere and would be allowed to win?,,since we are looking and regarding exhibitions like kokufu as our yardstick or model for exhibitions.

I don't think these kind of questions have to lead to heated debates.

The question was asked on this forum and to generalize the majority of posters feel that....
.....rules of competitions should be followed whether they are right or wrong.
....tanuki is just another way of creating bonsai and have nothing to do with cheating/fooling.
....tanuki is not inferior to other bonsai and should be allowed in competitions like Kokufu Ten.

( On a personal note: I once entered a competition on the net but my tree did not win. I copied and paste the winning tree to my Paintshop program and used the enlargement tool to scrutinize the winning tree. I could not find anything wrong with the winning tree.....until I found some worm poop and an eaten leave! "Just as I thought", I shamelessly thought! Today I am ashamed at what I have done because I know it was bad sportmanship to do so - if the judges are happy with their decision, so should we when we enter a competition.)

(Tanuki are also called "Phoenix Grafts" after the mythological Phoenix which arose from its own ashes.)

Lennard


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Re: Fooled by Tanuki

Post  Guest on Wed Jul 10, 2013 10:29 pm


Chris,
There is no "double standard Chris" I was discussing tanuki. Your posts is discussing another...If you think it is a tanuki, we can discuss it, if not, I think it belongs to another topic. Not here. Otherwise, we will leave this topic if we discuss it here.

..and I did not open this line, Lennard did.


regards,
jun:) 

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Re: Fooled by Tanuki

Post  Guest on Wed Jul 10, 2013 10:36 pm

Lennard and others,

please review the origins of tanuki, and the original intentions why it was being done...You'll find out that It is also the same reason why Japanese in older times are ashamed to admit that their trees are tanuki.

Why do you think that just few decades ago, tanuki has a derogatory implications if it is in the same level as a regular bonsai...maybe, just maybe they view it as not a bonsai but pretending to be one. Research, research guys...I won't feed everything here.

There are few dozen bonsai "masters" (the real ones, dead and still here) , How many of them are doing (full) tanuki? Why is that? What separate them from the rest of the crowd?

regards,
jun:)


Last edited by jun on Wed Jul 10, 2013 11:26 pm; edited 1 time in total

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Re: Fooled by Tanuki

Post  Guest on Thu Jul 11, 2013 12:18 am



Midwest bonsai Society 2011 fall show...

Ryan Neil was fooled by a tanuki. he judged and awarded a ficus fused (grafted) to a deadwood. Somebody approach him and said it is a tanuki...he said if he knew it is a tanuki, he would NOT let it win. He said he was so disappointed with himself.

It was not jun ,It was Ryan Neil...hehehe.


regards,
jun:lol: 







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Tanuki can be natural?

Post  lennard on Thu Jul 11, 2013 9:13 am

jun wrote:Lennard and others,

please review the origins of tanuki, and the original intentions why it was being done...You'll find out that It is also the same reason why Japanese in older times are ashamed to admit that their trees are tanuki.

Why do you think that just few decades ago, tanuki has a derogatory implications if it is in the same level as a regular bonsai...maybe, just maybe they view it as not a bonsai but pretending to be one. Research, research guys...I won't feed everything here.  

There are few dozen bonsai "masters" (the real ones, dead and still here) , How many of them are doing (full) tanuki? Why is that? What separate them from the rest of the crowd?

Doing "traditional" bonsai as well as African style bonsai I have thought a lot about "new" world natural tree styles. When it comes to African styles most of the styles will not be accepted by traditional Japanese or other masters because most of them have not seen these styles/forms in nature and they do not conform to the proportions of "traditional" bonsai.

As mentioned in your other post, Ryan was ashamed because he judged a Ficus fused to a piece of deadwood and did not recognize it as a bonsai. This is an good example of how misinformed even "masters" can be: Ficus fusing to deadwood is a very natural style here in South Africa and it is one of the stages of the Strangler style(Have you heard about this style? Research, research .....and not only listen to masters!). When a Ficus has completely killed it's host it is called the Victory Strangler Style. Here is an example of a bonsai being grown into this style:


Over time the roots of the Ficus will fuse to each other and to the deadwood host. Most anti-tanuki masters will view this tree as a derogatory Tanuki and will not judge the tree at a  competition because they would see it as not natural and cheating - what an insult would that be to me as the grower and a Bonsai grower here in Africa. More pics of the different stages of the strangler style and it's stages here:
http://lennardsbonsaibeginnings.blogspot.com/2012/09/ficus-burkei-ficus-natalensis-ficus.html
(Remember this is quite a new style and it is not practiced for very long yet- although Mack Boshoff has written a book on the style!)

The world is changing and judges(and masters) must make sure that they know the natural forms and proportions of trees all over the world or they will seem to be ignorant.

If someone tells me that one of my bonsai do not look like a tree in nature I reply with this:
"If my bonsai don't look like a tree in nature to you,......you have not been out much, have you?"

Tanuki can be a very natural form - if two different species germinate close to each other and the two trunks grow up fighting each other, the cambium of both trees will try to grow over each other. If one of the two trees die, it will look exactly like a Tanuki. If we want to replicate this, do we have to do the style as nature did it by planting two trees close together and kill the one to replicate the style - that would be silly. ( I have an example of this in my garden where a Camphor Tree has germinated in the middle of a Crepe Myrtle. The Camphor tree will over time grow over the Crepe Myrle's trunk - if the Crepe Myrtle dies it would be a great example of Tanuki. No pretending to be a bonsai or a natural tree form here.

Referring to the last remark. even bonsai masters are people too and they are also subjected to by what is popular in traditional bonsai circles - if you want to join the master circles you will have to conform to what they believe or you will be pushed out.

Lennard


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Re: Fooled by Tanuki

Post  lennard on Thu Jul 11, 2013 9:21 am

jun wrote:

Midwest bonsai Society 2011 fall show...

Ryan Neil was fooled by a tanuki. he judged and awarded a ficus fused (grafted) to a deadwood. Somebody approach him and said it is a tanuki...he said if he knew it is a tanuki, he would NOT let it win. He said he was so disappointed with himself.

It was not jun ,It was Ryan Neil...hehehe.


Answered this in the previous post......if Ryan said that I would be very disappointed in him. He was supposed to come to a convention here in South Africa but he is not coming any more. If he view our Ficus strangling style as derogative, he would have made a lot of enemies over here!

Lennard


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Re: Fooled by Tanuki

Post  Guest on Thu Jul 11, 2013 11:14 am

lennard wrote:
jun wrote:

Midwest bonsai Society 2011 fall show...

Ryan Neil was fooled by a tanuki. he judged and awarded a ficus fused (grafted) to a deadwood. Somebody approach him and said it is a tanuki...he said if he knew it is a tanuki, he would NOT let it win. He said he was so disappointed with himself.

It was not jun ,It was Ryan Neil...hehehe.


Answered this in the previous post......if Ryan said that I would be very disappointed in him. He was supposed to come to a convention here in South Africa but he is not coming any more. If he view our Ficus strangling style as derogative, he would have made a lot of enemies over here!

Lennard




Yes Lennard he said that. What I am saying here in IBC are all with basis and source...That statement from him, I saw it in a video while he was giving critique to the trees on display.

But IMHO, He did the right thing...As a judged of that show and special guest invited to impart his advanced knowledge on bonsai  he knows more than most average bonsai folks do, his views should be taken as a wake up call. I am sure his criticism of the tree is based on what he learned, and he is absolutely right about it.

see guys this is the point that I am trying to raise here. Maybe I am just more vocal than other people who have the same view as mine. I talked to several bonsai masters including most of the ones you invited in your shows, I am sad to say they have the same view...and it shouldn't make them your enemies.

regards,
jun:)

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Re: Fooled by Tanuki

Post  Guest on Thu Jul 11, 2013 11:31 am

Lennard,

I just read your other post, you seems to be very upset. Relax my friend, there are more to come.

I was about to give my idea on that style but I will hold it back for now until you relax a bit.
If you have an open mind to discuss Strangler fig style (to justify a tanuki) I can give you some pointers but don't take it please as an attack in your bonsai style, it would be just a rational explanation why it is not really possible...in nature, as I did my research at the same time respect the knowledge of the "masters" and their humble opinions.

regards,
jun:) 

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Re: Fooled by Tanuki

Post  David Willoughby on Thu Jul 11, 2013 12:59 pm

jun wrote:

Midwest bonsai Society 2011 fall show...

Ryan Neil was fooled by a tanuki. he judged and awarded a ficus fused (grafted) to a deadwood. Somebody approach him and said it is a tanuki...he said if he knew it is a tanuki, he would NOT let it win. He said he was so disappointed with himself.

It was not jun ,It was Ryan Neil...hehehe.


regards,
jun:lol: 







Context jun,

Ryan Neil wasn't aware that it was a tanuki from I am led to believe, but perhaps the person who labelled it a Tanuki was quick to say it, perhaps the person was creating an Epiphytic Fig which is quite natural.

Are you now comparing yourself to him are you ? Or was it me taking you out of context.....

Everyone has a different reality, for one to dismiss another because it doesn't fit one's own only removes a train of thought that one could learn from.

Cheers

David


Last edited by David Willoughby on Thu Jul 11, 2013 1:13 pm; edited 1 time in total (Reason for editing : Syntax and grammer)

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Really relaxed over here - we must get some informed answers to your question.

Post  lennard on Thu Jul 11, 2013 1:55 pm

jun wrote:Lennard,

1. I just read your other post, you seems to be very upset. Relax my friend, there are more to come.

2. Yes Lennard he said that. What I am saying here in IBC are all with basis and source...That statement from him, I saw it in a video while he was giving critique to the trees on display.

3. But IMHO, He did the right thing...As a judged of that show and special guest invited to impart his advanced knowledge on bonsai  he knows more than most average bonsai folks do, his views should be taken as a wake up call. I am sure his criticism of the tree is based on what he learned, and he is absolutely right about it.

4. see guys this is the point that I am trying to raise here. Maybe I am just more vocal than other people who have the same view as mine. I talked to several bonsai masters including most of the ones you invited in your shows, I am sad to say they have the same view...and it shouldn't make them your enemies.


1. I am very relaxed Jun. (Hurt my back on Tuesday so I have a lot of time on hand.)
I am very liberal(follow traditional and modern trends) when it comes to bonsai and as stated before, I have no problem fusing a tree to a piece of deadwood as just another technique to create a bonsai. I am also not questioning whether Tanuki is a negative term for this technique or that it is negatively seen by masters. As you have mentioned Ryan and other masters are negative towards that- but that does not make them necessarily right. You know I love your very creative landscapes, monkeys and all. To me you are a master in creating this bonsai scenes. What concerns me is that other masters will not accept your creative scenes and I do hope that you will not be influenced in such a way that you stop making these creations one day- just as a master will not stop me from doing a Phoenix Graft.

2. Debating is all about basis and source. In this case we must debate whether this technique has it's roots in nature or not. As mentioned before this can happen in nature - if you search hard and long enough you will find Tanuki in nature. It may seem that I do not respect the masters, but I am long enough in the world to know that masters are human only. A master who claims that he has seen all the natural forms of trees, all over the world, will indeed be a Tanuki himself! To obtain inner piece for yourself when it comes to masters, ask them about the Wonderboom style/form - most of them will not know/recognize the style/form and will judge the bonsai negatively in a competition.

3. The advanced knowledge that Ryan has is limited to what his master taught him. The sad thing is that a pupil can not speak against his master because it will show disrespect- even if he feels in his heart that he disagree with his master. If Ryan judged the mentioned Ficus according to the "rules" he was taught and found it to be a winner, I can only think that somebody spitefully tested his learning by drawing his attention to the fact that the Ficus was fused to the deadwood and was in fact a Tanuki - he had no choice but to retract his judging because of what the masters would have said about his  learning from another master. Bonsai is a tree in a pot...if we want to go the natural school's way, bonsai is a tree in a pot styled according to trees in nature. Ficus trees strangling their hosts is a natural form and their could have been no reason why Ryan should have retracted his judging!

4. Masters must be careful when it comes to "judging" styles/forms they are not used to/or they do not believe in,  it may be seen as disrespect. If a master judges my tree according to the traditional rules and the form/style the tree represent, I will not have any problem with that. Personal(ungrounded) opinions must not come between a beautiful bonsai and the viewer.

Let's Tanuki and leave the "politics" out of this.....hehehe, I have a very long tailed Juniper procumbens "Nana" that I don't know what to do with.....Kokofu Top Ten - here I come with my Phoenix graft!

Another thread on this here:

http://ibonsaiclub.forumotion.com/t4089-tanukia-good-learning-experience

I love you 

Lennard


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Re: Fooled by Tanuki

Post  Guest on Thu Jul 11, 2013 2:17 pm

David,
I am sure you know what I meant..Why did you think i was comparing myself to him? Is there any need for that comment of yours? Or was it meant as an insult coming from you? Common man stick with the topic and stop the personal attack if that is your intention, it won't be good for you.

With regards to Ryans comment, it is his own perception, and given the mans credibility I will tend to believe him more than most people. It is a very valid reason coming from him. I will duscuss deeper the strangler fig style,,,and to warn you in advance David, i'll be quoting a "master" and his studies of nature so don't say I am comparing myself to anyone. There is no need for the below the belt punches.

Regards,
Jun

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Re: Fooled by Tanuki

Post  Guest on Thu Jul 11, 2013 4:14 pm

Thanks Lennard!
I hope your back is fine.

I am not a master of anything...I am just happy of doing things that my mind perceived. I won't mind if people won't like my work, I am not doing my bonsai/penjing for anybody or to impress people. I am doing them because I simply enjoy seeing the fruit of my labor. But, luckily I rarely find people who dislike them and it is a bonus for me.

With regards to the strangler fig style this is my take on the matter because I was trying to do that style myself years ago. but as I do more studies and observation on nature and different kinds of figs (we have countless species here) I observe the following and then i tried to relate them to tree structures and physiology, and then how to translate them into bonsai:
1. In bonsai, the "ultimate" goal in design is to create a very matured tree, from branches, trunks, nebari and tapering of trunks and branches, twisted branches, ramified branches, old barks etc...
2. Trees in nature have several stages to reach matured stage, forms are different depending on the species.   When you applied the goal in bonsai to have a matured looking strangler fig tree  with deadwood still attached to it, it doesnt add up. The reason is this , In nature when a strangler fig tree killed a host tree (which will take quite sometime) the strangler fig is certainly in a very matured stage before it can kill the host tree. And in nature the dead host tree won't last long enough to create a "deadwood", It will certainly rot no matter how hard the tree is.
Most if not all the time, what was left is a "hollowed" fig tree, with the form or image of the original host tree used to be.
( you can google search images of strangler fig tree and see what I meant here).

I hope you won't read this as an attack in your bonsai style. I am just trying to impart my own studies of fig tree which are very common here in the tropics.

regards,

jun:) 
jun

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Tanuki and strangler style.

Post  lennard on Thu Jul 11, 2013 5:48 pm

jun wrote:Thanks Lennard!
1. I hope your back is fine.

2. I am not a master of anything...I am just happy of doing things that my mind perceived. I won't mind if people won't like my work, I am not doing my bonsai/penjing for anybody or to impress people. I am doing them because I simply enjoy seeing the fruit of my labor. But, luckily I rarely find people who dislike them and it is a bonus for me.

3. With regards to the strangler fig style this is my take on the matter because I was trying to do that style myself years ago. but as I do more studies and observation on nature and different kinds of figs (we have countless species here) I observe the following and then i tried to relate them to tree structures and physiology, and then how to translate them into bonsai:
3.1. In bonsai, the "ultimate" goal in design is to create a very matured tree, from branches, trunks, nebari and tapering of trunks and branches, twisted branches, ramified branches, old barks etc...
3.2. Trees in nature have several stages to reach matured stage, forms are different depending on the species.   When you applied the goal in bonsai to have a matured looking strangler fig tree  with deadwood still attached to it, it doesnt add up. The reason is this , In nature when a strangler fig tree killed a host tree (which will take quite sometime) the strangler fig is certainly in a very matured stage before it can kill the host tree. And in nature the dead host tree won't last long enough to create a "deadwood", It will certainly rot no matter how hard the tree is.
3.3Most if not all the time, what was left is a "hollowed" fig tree, with the form or image of the original host tree used to be.
( you can google search images of strangler fig tree and see what I meant here).

4. I hope you won't read this as an attack in your bonsai style. I am just trying to impart my own studies of fig tree which are very common here in the tropics.


I. My back is better today. Only got some spasms left in my chest and back but it seems that the damage to my back is not something permanent. Strange enough it is my love for doing bonsai that caused the injury - I picked up a heavy marble slab in an awkward position and I believe I have hurt a nerve in my back.

2. I am happy that you still believe in doing what you like. When it comes to Tanuki I think we must give the growers this choice also - if they like doing it and they do it well, we must not discourage them. Most beginners and also some intermediate growers struggle to keep their bonsai alive and they dream of having a nice looking bonsai for self fulfillment - if they can do that doing a Tanuki, why not? Each grower must decide for himself if the challenge of growing a convincing bonsai using the Tanuki technique is good enough for his own fulfillment. There are many styles/forms I do not like, one of them a very well known one, but to not hurt people's feeling I do not say this openly. Think of the feelings the owner of the Ficus may be feeling. Maybe his intention was never to cheat and he was very proud of what he has achieved with his tree - now his tree is labeled as a cheat because some people said so...and I truly believe their intentions were not pure.

3. When it comes to your perception of the strangler natural trees I can see again that we are living worlds apart. We have a very dry climate here and trees take a very long time to rot. We get no rain for about 5 months here and mainly thunderstorms in summer. I can think of about ten examples within 5 km of my home of Ficus trees that has strangled their hosts and the host's deadwood is still visible. Some of the host are of the Combretum species and they have deadwood that can last for many decades. As mentioned, Mack Boshoff who have defined and described the style here in South Africa, has written a book of 125 pages on this with a lot of natural examples and bonsai he is growing into the style. He describes three different stages that can be portrayed: the invader phase, the strangling stage and the victory stage. All three stages can be duplicated as bonsai - again it is about the journey and transformation! Using Ficus for this style is amazing - the fusing of the roots is a wonderful transformation as the tree ages!
(I have seen one of your attempts you have shown in 2010.)

4. As stated I do all kinds of styles/forms because each one has it's merit. I am even styling some trees according to the very old bonsai schools that will not be accepted today in general. Most of my trees tell me how to style them - I rarely force my own will on a tree.
I do listen to what masters say, but I will not accept something just because they are masters saying that.

When it comes to the Tanuki question I think every thing that can be said has been said. From my side I am going to give it a rest now- people must decide this for themselves.

The positive thing about this kind of threads is that I learn something every time - no matter how heated the debates become.

Lennard










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Re: Fooled by Tanuki

Post  Ashiod on Sun Jul 14, 2013 6:04 am

lennard wrote:Ficus fusing to deadwood is a very natural style here in South Africa and it is one of the stages of the Strangler style(Have you heard about this style? Research, research .....and not only listen to masters!). When a Ficus has completely killed it's host it is called the Victory Strangler Style. Here is an example of a bonsai being grown into this style:
Over time the roots of the Ficus will fuse to each other and to the deadwood host.

I'm glad that I take time to look in on posts that seem out of my league. I had never heard of this style or growth habit before. It happens infrequently here in the cold north(where there are no ficus), and usually leads to both trees dying off. Learning of the leads(perhaps unfortunately for me) to some very interesting ideas.

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Re: Fooled by Tanuki

Post  David Willoughby on Mon Jul 15, 2013 2:18 pm

jun wrote:David,
I am sure you know what I meant..Why did you think i was comparing myself to him? Is there any need for that comment of yours? Or was it meant as an insult coming from you? Common man stick with the topic and stop the personal attack if that is your intention, it won't be good for you.

With regards to Ryans comment, it is his own perception, and given the mans credibility I will tend to believe him more than most people. It is a very valid reason coming from him. I will duscuss deeper the strangler fig style,,,and to warn you in advance David, i'll be quoting a "master" and his studies of nature so don't say I am comparing myself to anyone. There is no need for the below the belt punches.

Regards,
Jun

Hi Jun,

Firstly, I apologise as while my post was a "Double etendre`", part of it was said with mischevous thoughts, so I do sincerely apologise for it. I do know exactly what you mean and how the comment in the video was made, but I was also trying to highlight how often things that are said are so easily taken out of context. It is amazing on what the smallest of degrees on the viewing angles can make in how one perceives something.

I look forward to hearing your own thoughts on the strangler fig mate, personally I think it could be an extremely interesting topic.

Regards

David

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Re: Fooled by Tanuki

Post  Guest on Mon Jul 15, 2013 3:05 pm

No problem David!

As for my thought on the strangler Fig style with dead wood I already explained it above at my previous response to Lennard.

May I add, just a thought. I think it would be more realistic if in the bonsai, if the design of a fig tree  were to be emulated, It would be more interesting and more natural to have a living tree (bonsai) with fig roots wrapping around its body. It's like two bonsai in one pot, In nature we could find more of this "period" where the process of fig is just in its stage of killing its host tree.

Well, it's just my opinion.

regards,
jun:)


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Re: Fooled by Tanuki

Post  Guest on Fri Aug 09, 2013 1:32 pm



Just read a new article from "BursaBonsai.com"
an interview with Bonsai master LoMin Hsuan on Aug 9, 2013:

Part of the interview-
Q: You've heard about Tanuki? Can you explain what is Tanuki? Can it be referred to as bonsai?
Answer from master Lo: "In my opinion, Tanuki is just for fun, not a serious bonsai."

Q: Taiwan to allow or forbid tanuki in bonsai contest?
Answer from master Lo: "No tanuki bonsai in Taiwan! We have very nice skill for jin, not necessary for Tanuki! Tanuki almost forbid in bonsai contest here."

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Re: Fooled by Tanuki

Post  Guest on Sat Aug 10, 2013 2:40 am

Jun,
We get that you have a personal objection to tanuki in all ways but I really wonder at the point of this thread & your response to anyone who differs in thought to yourself. Like everything in life it is possible to find someone with the same views as our own irrrespective of what that view is... its what leads to all sorts of nastyness because one group feel their view is right & all others wrong...(I wont expand on this as any example is likely to offend someone, just as it is likely to find another who agrees 100%) My own views have not & will not change from what I originally posted
If an artist has the ability to create a tree that a trained eye takes for natural what does it matter how it was achieved...
Matt

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Re: Fooled by Tanuki

Post  Guest on Sun Aug 11, 2013 2:40 pm

MattA wrote:Jun,
We get that you have a personal objection to tanuki in all ways but I really wonder at the point of this thread & your response to anyone who differs in thought to yourself. Like everything in life it is possible to find someone with the same views as our own irrrespective of what that view is... its what leads to all sorts of nastyness because one group feel their view is right & all others wrong...(I wont expand on this as any example is likely to offend someone, just as it is likely to find another who agrees 100%) My own views have not & will not change from what I originally posted
If an artist has the ability to create a tree that a trained eye takes for natural what does it matter how it was achieved...
Matt
Matt,
 But so far, this thread have shown the views of 4 respected people in the community about  their views on tanuki. One from Europe, Two from US, and One from Taiwan...all are top calibers in this field. I am looking for more.

regards,
jun


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Re: Fooled by Tanuki

Post  Guest on Sun Aug 11, 2013 3:09 pm

And Oh! Matt,

He is also very good in doing tanuki... And we acknowledge his ability in that aspect. In fact if we have more time and good species for tanuki we'll ask him to do a demo on tanuki.
...And I didn't know he was/is a member here.

regards,
jun


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Re: Fooled by Tanuki

Post  Leo Schordje on Sun Aug 11, 2013 7:06 pm

Just re-read the entire thread.

If one considers bonsai more in the context of a lifestyle, an activity where it is the routine, rather than the end product that is the important part, bonsai in this sense, tanuki would not fit as acceptable.

If one considers bonsai where the end product, at exhibition is the only important part of the process, well I can see tanuki being considered as acceptable. Clearly if the comments made in previous posts were accurate in reporting the Japanese approach to tanuki, they have mixed feeelings about tanuki there too.

Taking short cuts, does not blend well with the the Zen or Taoist philosophy that permeates Bonsai and Penjing. The Zen, and Taoist influences put the emphasis on the process. On the being in the present required by the mundane routines of caring for bonsai. Of being in harmony with the material at hand when designing the bonsai.

So Jun, I think I can understand where some of the objection to tanuki comes from. In looking at bonsai from the context of its philosophy, Tanuki would be considered cheating.

I do dislike artificial flowers, intensly dislike them. I get it.

But I do live in the USA, and we culturally are in love with "Instant Anything", so while I am sympathetic I haven't really changed my vote for what should happen at USA shows.

But you are right, bonsai is much more than just the shows. I do agree with you that not disclosing the technique if it was used is dishonest. Creating a fictional origin for a tree is also dishonest.

I absolutely feel the show rules must be followed. So what ever the local rules for the show at hand are, that is the authority I will follow for that exhibit. Tanuki - yes or no - check the show rule book and follow the rules.

Leo Schordje
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Re: Fooled by Tanuki

Post  JimLewis on Mon Aug 12, 2013 12:28 am

But tanuki are not "instant." It takes almost as many years to create a decent tanuki as it does to do a traditional bonsai. A tree when first tacked in onto a piece of deadwood does NOT look natural. Note that this post doesn't reflect any pro or con on tanuki. I simply don't see it matters one way or another. Both take talent.

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Jim Lewis - lewisjk@windstream.net - Western NC - People, when Columbus discovered this country, it was plumb full of nuts and berries. And I'm right here to tell you the berries are just about all gone. Uncle Dave Macon, old-time country musician

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Re: Fooled by Tanuki

Post  Guest on Mon Aug 12, 2013 3:02 am

Leo Schordje wrote:Just re-read the entire thread.

If one considers bonsai more in the context of a lifestyle, an activity where it is the routine, rather than the end product that is the important part, bonsai in this sense, tanuki would not fit as acceptable.

If one considers bonsai where the end product, at exhibition is the only important part of the process, well I can see tanuki being considered as acceptable. Clearly if the comments made in previous posts were accurate in reporting the Japanese approach to tanuki, they have mixed feeelings about tanuki there too.

Taking short cuts, does not blend well with the the Zen or Taoist philosophy that permeates Bonsai and Penjing. The Zen, and Taoist influences put the emphasis on the process. On the being in the present required by the mundane routines of caring for bonsai. Of being in harmony with the material at hand when designing the bonsai.

So Jun, I think I can understand where some of the objection to tanuki comes from. In looking at bonsai from the context of its philosophy, Tanuki would be considered cheating.

I do dislike artificial flowers, intensly dislike them. I get it.

But I do live in the USA, and we culturally are in love with "Instant Anything", so while I am sympathetic I haven't really changed my vote for what should happen at USA shows.

But you are right, bonsai is much more than just the shows. I do agree with you that not disclosing the technique if it was used is dishonest. Creating a fictional origin for a tree is also dishonest.

I absolutely feel the show rules must be followed. So what ever the local rules for the show at hand are, that is the authority I will follow for that exhibit. Tanuki - yes or no - check the show rule book and follow the rules.

Thanks Leo!
That is what is this thread is all about. This is not about imposing one's style to another person. Nobody should dictate to anybody what style he should adopt. Being classical, naturalist, or modern is always a preference of the individual and should be respected by his/her peers.

Giving more flavor to the hobby by introducing and adopting new styles other than the classic Japanese style will make this "art" more colorful.
...In the same interview with Lo Min Hsuan, he tackle this issue and how the different parts of the worlds are slowly developing their unique styles, and why most experts perceived the Japanese bonsai are in the "asleep" status...(a new thread for this one maybe).

regards,
jun:) Smile 

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Re: Fooled by Tanuki

Post  Guest on Mon Aug 12, 2013 3:05 am

JimLewis wrote:But tanuki are not "instant."  It takes almost as many years to create a decent tanuki as it does to do a traditional bonsai.  A tree when first tacked in onto a piece of deadwood does NOT look natural.   Note that this post doesn't reflect any pro or con on tanuki.  I simply don't see it matters one way or another.  Both take talent.
Hi Jim.

Instant tanuki are created by attaching flowers or fruits or deadwood to trees being shown in exhibits. It takes less than an hour to create this illusion.
please revisit William posts/photos.

regards,
jun:) 

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Re: Fooled by Tanuki

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