Midwest show discussion question

Someone pointed me in the direction of this thread and it is a shame to see the positivity of what was a good show for lots of different reasons dragged down and some of the people involved become disillusioned because of the comments of a few.

The tree in question was in very good health, especially considering the extremely hot Michigan summer, so a lot of credit should be given to the non professional/professional/amateur/whatever name is applicable to Tim Priest. I think some people are mistaking slight untidiness with a lack of health. The foliage pads were a little bashed around, probably in transit, possibly by the organisers who could have moved the tree around the night before the show opened. So yes, they could have done with a tidy up and a prune, and the tree did appear to be less professionally finished and refined than it did a few months previously in Rochester. The comments made regarding this were taken on board by Tim and should the tree ever be shown again by the current owner under the auspices of Tim Priest, I am sure that this aspect will be improved upon. My personal opinion is that Tim would have been damned no matter what course of action he took, even if it was out of competition comments would have been made. I was happy to see the tree again, in the same way I was happy to meet many friends at the show who I only get to see once a year at most.

Would it be nice to constantly see new trees every year and no repetition giving a three year grace period? Yes of course it would, but here is a sad fact...Bonsai is a pretty minor hobby/art form. We are few in number compared to other hobbies, hence we are not overrun with people who are willing to show trees, and if people get sniped at when they do for whatever reason, can you blame them?

I am not going to get bogged down into a should professionals/amateurs be displaying at the same show argument because it will continue on, I have my personal thoughts on the matter which I am happy to talk about in person, rather than through the impersonal and open to being misconstrued medium that is the interweb. I will say that the Midwest show has a good format in the sense that there is an incentive for people to display for the first time. Two award winners in the novice section had very nice trees, had put a lot of effort into them which thoroughly deserved recognition and actually took the time to come up to me and ask why they had been given a ribbon and how it could be improved. Next year no doubt they will be in the open section and up to a higher level of bonsai and also display. Both "novices" had been working on their respective trees for 15 years or so, so hardly appropriate to call them novices, but therein lies the problem with naming categories. "Debutante" would be a better title but then people would be confused and think the trees (or owners) were ripe for the picking. In the professional section we had Neil Dellinger take a prize and he is hardly making his living from Bonsai, yet his trees were better presented than many who are. Perhaps the title of the classification should be "Trees that have been worked on with a spirit of professionalism and/or been critiqued, advised or worked on by a bonsai professional at some point in their existence and/or owned by a person who makes the majority of their income from the sale of bonsai, bonsai pots, bonsai accents or bonsai paraphernalia and/or previous winning trees in the open section of this or any other nationally recognised exhibition." This is the problem with language and the modern world, trying to appease everybody...the name tags get tremendously long and equally meaningless.

Whilst we are on the subject, give a thought to the trees of the crew of helpers around Bill Valavanis. Every US National show they put trees in worthy of being considered for awards, but because of the fear of accusations of cronyism, they are often out of competition. People then love to say "Well I think that tree should have won..." without looking at the asterisk next to it, reading the name card, knowing the owner or origin or giving any consideration to the possible reasons behind the decisions. Not only does this situation cheapen the award and happiness of the winner, it will also bring the reputation of the judges and the exhibition into question. When such things occur, people tend to start saying, "do you know what, it's not worth the hassle".

Putting on an exhibition, getting 120 trees together, working with all the owners to find a solution to a complex balancing act of different considerations, asking somebody to judge it and then deal with the fall out...then doing it all again the next year? Cat Nelson, Ivan Watters and the Midwest club members who put it on deserve a medal and thanks should go out to all the exhibitors, novice, open and professional; award winners or not. Without them there is no show, without a show, we would have less to look forward to and less to aspire to. Spread the love where it deserves to be spread.

Peter Warren

Very well said Peter, thanks so much.

- bob

my nellie wrote:

marcus watts wrote: ... ... In many apsects of this hobby the Japanese are still at the pinacle, they have 100's of years head start and have an undeniable knowledge base ... ...

Within other competition scenarios shall I pay a runner to win a race and take the credit myself ?, shall I pay a proffessional to take my entry picture for a photo competition ?, the examples could go on and on..........and in every case the answer would be "no, you cant do that", but in judged bonsai competition it is alright because the Japanese do it that way !. I really believe this is a place where we as a bonsai community can improve on the Japanese way of doing things - and it needs this generation of show organisers & judges to have the balls to stand up and define a way that works in western society. It may take a few goes to get a system that works, but there is room for improvement so it is worth working at... ...

Yes! Yes! Yes! I consider myself a beginner, my opinion is not worth anything, BUT I do believe Marcus' judgement is 100% corect and moral!

I feel the same way and that is why I entered the tree for My client in the Professional category with other professionals and not in the open category.

Well said Peter

Toward About Marcus's point on categories of exhibitors;

I come to bonsai from the orchid hobby, where there is the occasional dust up around those exhibiting who just purchased plant vs long time growers vs those who have gardeners vs those that board their plants with a pro. Same issue. Basically the way it is dealt with today, is that it is ignored. It is the fact on the ground and there is no getting around it. So one simply has to get used to it.

When I was an orchid show chairman I tried to remedy this issue with a similar scheme to the MBS show using various categories of competitors. The end result was fewer people were happy with the show than before the categories were created, so that solution was abandoned. The more finely one tries to parse out the whether one is a 'pro' versus who is an amateur, the more individuals fall somewhere in between. You can't draw bright lines around groups of people. Who really gets to decide?

What I really like about the MBS Show, is that for the large number of people that are not strictly 'amateur' and not strictly 'professional', the exhibitor decides what category the tree goes into. If the exhibitor wants the tree to compete against the highest and harshest standard, the tree can go 'pro' even if the that individual doesn't make a living doing bonsai. I myself only exhibited once at this show. I put myself in Open (amateur) rather than novice, because even though I never had done any other shows, I had been doing bonsai so long that no way would I consider myself a novice. As a result I got no ribbons, but I got good tips on what to do next with the tree.

We as aspiring Bonsai artists need to see first hand true works of art, and we need to see first hand examples that are "on the way" but not quite there yet. Also as humans we can learn from others mistakes. There is an opportunity to learn from the trees shown that in the end one might judge as 'not ready yet' or as 'sticks in pots'. To this end, we need our shows to be welcoming and easy for people at all levels of the hobby, from the beginner to the pro. I think the MBS Show nicely does this. It is not perfect, but it is far better than many shows. And I mean both in bonsai and across other hobbies / avocations /arts.

Judging ART, is always a questionable activity. To judge any art is a flawed activity. True art doesn't need to be judged, nor does it lend itself well to the quantification that judging imposes, but it is what we as humans like to do.

So I think the system the MBS has in place. I wouldn't change it as far as I am concerned. Also as a one time orchid show organizer, the lack of volunteers to help is always a problem. At some point, no suggestion for change of the plans in motion is allowed unless the person proposing the change is willing to do the work it would take and has their own team of volunteers ready to help make it happen. At some point a show chairman can not let other people make more work for the team assembled. It is an all volunteer group. Got to support those that do the work. MBS - job well done.

marcus watts wrote: ... but in judged bonsai competition it is alright because the Japanese do it that way !

But Marcus, in all the disciplines you cite, it is the individual human competitor that is judged one way or another. In bonsai it is the tree that is judged, its ownership, origin, history etc., are irrelevant to the judgement. Such things are of interest to the audience, perhaps, but not to the judges.

Peter, A well reasoned and written response. We have to deal with what we have and with what is currently possible in the American bonsai scene, but I do believe now is the time to start thinking and planning for the time when bonsai has grown up a little more.

Poink88 wrote:Marcus,
The professionals have this advantage of being able to afford and know the right people who can supply them these wonderful yamadori materials so their advantage (on top of their skills, artistry, and knowledge) is multiplied several folds.

Hi Dario,
On this I disagree - it is not the case that the bonsai professionals can automatically afford the material, i think they are for the most part normal working people like you and I, with families, mortgages, bills, taxes etc - I can see this hobby would be quite hard to earn the sort of living that would allow regular purchases of very expensive material to keep as personal just to enter shows. Yes they know where or who to get the material from, but in my experience they then are happy and keen to make this material available to customers - sometimes a customer will book in some styling sessions, but often not, prefering to work the material themselves. As the freelance pro will have to travel the country or world to piece together a living there isnt neccessarily going to be a garden of masterpieces just left at home for weeks on end.

I think my earlier suggestions were bouncing ideas to try and make the sort of playing field many people would feel they stood a chance on - this would be better for local and club bonsai show organisation than a totally elitest feel that could leave many people not wanting to enter...BUT then a lot comes down to individual human nature - when I see trees better than mine I go away and try to make mine a bit better - this is the only way you can improve, and often this will need teaching sessions to learn the skills required.....self critique is the hardest to do i think as we all see our own trees as master pieces too

In time I have learnt a sense of realism about my trees, and i guess others do to - 50 + poor trees become reduced to 20 nice ones, but then really only 4 or 5 may have the potential to be actual good ones . If you want to move into showing trees properly I think there comes a time where you need to see the potential good trees you may have and concentrate on them, then when buying new material you have to get very chosey, make huge sacrifices while saving up, travel 100's or even 1000's of miles looking at them, and sell as many of the 'other' trees as you can so you eventually spend the same on just one tree that you used to in 2 or 3 years of the hobby.

The big shows need the super trees, it is what everyone wants to see - but i believe at club level it should be more friendly and even, if possible. Coming up very soon is a national show but the organisers have decided for their own reasons not to judge or give awards......I can see they want a happy weekend, but I know there is a feeling of slight dissapointment amongst some tree owners and I personally could see it much harder for them to get the great trees in future years.

This is one of the best ibc discussions for ages, thanks to every writer for making it so good.

cheers Marcus

Peter is exactly right of course - how to you define if the tree entered was in any way helped by a professional in its lead up to a show making it non amateur.

in the end, if a guy wants to wipe the floor and batter all comers with a very good pro formed tree in multiple shows there is nothing in any of the current rules to stop it, but this occurance would be lessened in future years if the tree could not win the same award again....this surely is a simple sensible rule to employ? Previous masterpiece winners can still be bought back for the publics pleasure if the show needs them and the owner is willing of course. After all this is the japanese way that seems to be a proven template to run high end exhibitions to.

cheers

That is one of the rules at the Midwest show (at least it was when I was there.) If a tree wins top honors in the open category, it can only be shown in the pro category in subsequent years. If it wins in the pro, then it can only be shown as exhibition, not in competition, in subsequent years.

- bob

marcus watts wrote:,......<snip> in the end, if a guy wants to wipe the floor and batter all comers with a very good pro formed tree in multiple shows there is nothing in any of the current rules to stop it .....<snip>

Please Marcus, I would hardly call two shows, more than 400 miles and 3 months apart as "multiple". This thread was started referring to a specific tree, and this is an unfair characterization of the owner of that tree. To the best of my knowledge, these are the only 'shows' this tree has ever been entered into competition at. It may have appeared at workshops or demos, but not competition. The entry of this tree complied with all the rules in place for this show. Please quit with jabbing at the owner of this tree, your characterization is really not fair. It is a wonderful tree, hopefully with a long future ahead for it. And I for one am looking forward to seeing this tree often in the future. It is a good enough tree that I am already thinking about heading to Michigan, some 175 miles from my home to see it sometime next year if it doesn't travel to a venue near me. I assume others feel as I do. Stop banging on the owner about showing a truly wonderful tree with a bright future.

marcus watts wrote: .....<snip> ..... After all this is the japanese way that seems to be a proven template to run high end exhibitions to. <snip>

The Japanese model is the proven template as to how to run a show that most major shows have adopted. It is the 'reality on the ground', you will have to work on all the ORGANIZERS of the shows to get the change you are proposing, not banging on exhibitors for using the system in place. Talk to show chairmen, convince them to change the rules. But harping on those willing to bring trees in is not really helpful.

I do respect that your are entitled to your opinion, but I feel you are too focused on one individual, and the issue you are focused on, the judging rules, is not in the control of this person. And you have mischaracterized how often this tree has been available for public viewing.

I really don't have "a dog in this fight", but I do like seeing top notch trees that clearly are in the running, with time, to become "significant works of art" to borrow from the Japanese terminology. Putting roadblocks out to discourage exhibitors is not a smart thing to do if you want to have a viable bonsai community.

Leo,
With respect, I don't think Marcus was referring to any one individual, rather talking in general terms. If I'm wrong, then you're right.

Leo Schordje wrote: I would hardly call two shows, more than 400 miles and 3 months apart as "multiple".

Hopefully we will all be able to enjoy viewing this "significant work of art" as often as possible. No doubt on a "display only" basis, after it has won enough awards.
-Jay

Hey Leo,
Thank You so much. You are correct Sir. Those are the only two places the tree has ever been seen except for the garden of Ryan Neil. It will be in the Michigan All State Show in Grand Rapids the second weekend of May 2013 as display only. Ryan is our Guest Master. I may also put it into The Mid West August show again next year as display only unless I decide to show it at the Artisans Cup in Portland in 2013. If you like this one, wait till you see whats coming in 2014
Tim

Leo Schordje wrote:

marcus watts wrote:,......<snip> in the end, if a guy wants to wipe the floor and batter all comers with a very good pro formed tree in multiple shows there is nothing in any of the current rules to stop it .....<snip>

Please Marcus, I would hardly call two shows, more than 400 miles and 3 months apart as "multiple". This thread was started referring to a specific tree, and this is an unfair characterization of the owner of that tree. To the best of my knowledge, these are the only 'shows' this tree has ever been entered into competition at. It may have appeared at workshops or demos, but not competition. The entry of this tree complied with all the rules in place for this show. Please quit with jabbing at the owner of this tree, your characterization is really not fair. It is a wonderful tree, hopefully with a long future ahead for it. And I for one am looking forward to seeing this tree often in the future. It is a good enough tree that I am already thinking about heading to Michigan, some 175 miles from my home to see it sometime next year if it doesn't travel to a venue near me. I assume others feel as I do. Stop banging on the owner about showing a truly wonderful tree with a bright future.

marcus watts wrote: .....<snip> ..... After all this is the japanese way that seems to be a proven template to run high end exhibitions to. <snip>

The Japanese model is the proven template as to how to run a show that most major shows have adopted. It is the 'reality on the ground', you will have to work on all the ORGANIZERS of the shows to get the change you are proposing, not banging on exhibitors for using the system in place. Talk to show chairmen, convince them to change the rules. But harping on those willing to bring trees in is not really helpful.

I do respect that your are entitled to your opinion, but I feel you are too focused on one individual, and the issue you are focused on, the judging rules, is not in the control of this person. And you have mischaracterized how often this tree has been available for public viewing.

I really don't have "a dog in this fight", but I do like seeing top notch trees that clearly are in the running, with time, to become "significant works of art" to borrow from the Japanese terminology. Putting roadblocks out to discourage exhibitors is not a smart thing to do if you want to have a viable bonsai community.

Jay, the tree has only been in two shows. It was re potted from stock 2 years ago, recovered for a year and then styled last August. The National show was it's first and then the Midwest show in Chicago last weekend. It has only won the one award. First Place in the Professional Class

drgonzo wrote:

Leo Schordje wrote: I would hardly call two shows, more than 400 miles and 3 months apart as "multiple".

Hopefully we will all be able to enjoy viewing this "significant work of art" as often as possible. No doubt on a "display only" basis, after it has won enough awards.
-Jay

I would like to add from the perspective from a person who just attended their first show this year (me), that I would have loved to see some great material there. As it was, I was very disappointed about the caliber of trees that were shown. And also the lack of depth in variety. Granted I don't live in a bonsai hotbed, but I don't know if I'll take the time to go again. And if this is the image of bonsai that we are sending out to the general public, then no wonder we are slow to progress. To have a show that can attract such nice trees that obviously chicago can is a wonderful thing, not a subject for derision and petty quarreling. I would jump at the opportunity to see such trees in person.

Judy, you make an important point regarding the impression gained by the public. What's interesting in the various perspectives presented in this discussion is that there seems to be three crucial points in American bonsai that don't always seem to jive:

1. We have the raw materials in the variety of species

2. We have the talent in the form of dedicated and talented teachers

3. But culturally we're still trying to move a mountain

Hi Tim,

I wasnt talking about the tree you are responable for, but the general scenario that under current 'rules' anyone can decide to blow away all competition with a bought tree if the money is there to secure the material. A win in a 'one horse race' though is a hollow victory....................

The scenario:
1)What normally happens
large numbers of experienced bonsai hobbyists who have spent reasonable money on good materials and spent 5-7-10 years refining them to a really decent show standard decide to get their best trees ready for 'debut' showing, and there are a great number of people able to do this of course.....they are the bread and butter of the bonsai community joining clubs, buying supplies, commissioning pots, booking work shops and travelling to visit nurseries and shows. ie they are the commercial mass that the widespread proffessionals need to earn a living from

2) flip side
one individual buys a virtually show ready tree, gets some one else to tweak it into total show readiness and potentially never touches or works the tree themselves....ever......this tree wins every show of course as it will be a fantastic tree in amazing condition, but ask yourself what has really been 'won' - The best part of all shows is the social side and the shared enjoyment so to alienate oneself from this probably means the winner loses after all.

The result:
Many of the people who follow the first path decide not to bother entering again as it is too unbalanced to be worthwhile. Individuals enter events if they think there is a slim chance they may win an award, not to just make up numbers. The organisers will then struggle to get the high quality exhibits and the next show looks even worse - you'll get one new instant show tree sat in pride of place again and a load of poor back up material - making a great hollow victory again. This is exactly the way it will happen..

Options to consider:grade the shows
National = no holds bared, all pro trees, all instants, all masterpieces....judge like against like and what a show it would be
Regional = the panel select the trees for the judged section more carefully, so they ensure a high quality fair competition. Trees that are obviously out and out pro masterpieces bought in the same form they appear in could have the 'honour' of being invited for display if thats what people want
Club = let the entrant decide if they want to be friends with fellow club members !!, basically the club selectors should want a happy show so they can leave the ringer trees out of the comp - I know newly owned trees are exempt from some club shows.

My only other feeling is that a tree shown, or lined up, for more shows than the time it has been owned has been bought for the wrong reason - I've seen a few overshown former 'famous' trees - some were nearly dead, some had lost lower branches, the owners often hide them away........! its a shame when this happens.

cheers Marcus

Very Well Spoken Marcus

Is it?

If I work my little tail off to produce a really great tree (call it a masterpiece), by that definition above I would not be able to enter it in a national show as I am not a pro. So what's the point in my trying to take a tree to that level? Yet that is what I try to do in all things not just bonsai.

It all hinges on those well-nigh impossible definitions of pro, amateur or (even worse) novice. I'm with Peter W here - we will never achieve a working definition that is satisfactory. It also assumes that all professionals are better at bonsai than all amateurs/novices and the evidence of my own eyes tells me that this is far from true.

It boils down to what is actually being awarded and as far as I am aware in this country, the awards are for the best tree, not the best artist. I am happy with that as it gives me something to aspire to and the fact that I have had trees accepted for national shows indicates that it is not all pie in the sky that I as an "amateur" could produce a "best tree" in a national show. If we want to make it other than a "best tree" award system then maybe we need to devise some advanced version of the New Talent contest. That, in its existing form, is the closest we can get to a level playing field that sorts out which artist(s) is/are the best.


If the real issue here is that it is always the trees belonging to professionals that win then maybe just maybe that's because they actually are the best trees. Either that or the judging is biased/based on cronyism or whatever and that is a whole other issue (and one that would be seriously detrimental to the hobby) that will not be solved by putting arbitrary definitions on to terms.

F

One last point: if I am paying money to get into a show that bills itself as the "Best of..." then frankly I don't care if a tree has been there before/won it or whatever - I want to see the "best of" not the second best of. If a tree rightly retains its title of being in the "best of British trees" or whatever then it should be there as long as the owner wants it to be - until all the new "best of ...." come through and rightly supplant it. Anything otherwise would be like telling Roger Federer he can't compete in Grand Slam events any more as he has won them all.

What about a waiting period after a tree has been purchased? Then the new owner would at least have to show maintenance skills for a number (or at least one) of years.

Why not just display a bonsai simply to share it's beauty?

I think all those different catergories and rules spoil the purpose of the shows. Or is the purpose of the show off the artists and their skill/techniques?

At the U.S. National Bonsai Exhibitions the beauty of bonsai is simply the only requirement, plus having the bonsai in the United States.

Bill

fiona wrote:If I work my little tail off to produce a really great tree (call it a masterpiece), by that definition above I would not be able to enter it in a national show as I am not a pro.

That is the one point where Marcus's proposition falls down (if we have read it correctly). National or 'open' exhibitions are open to all comers, pro and amateurs alike, not just professionals - therefor no definition of professional is necessary. If the tree is good enough it gets in.

At the other end of the scale, local shows organized by local clubs can set whatever criteria they like. Let the organizers wrestle with the politics of defining who can show what and who can't.

The problem lies with the middle road: the regional shows that try to satisfy both the amateur club market and the more advanced or professional market. And it is at such events that the gray area between professional and amateur causes problems that need to be addressed. Indeed, that was the dilemma that started this thread in the first place.

Just to muddy the waters a little: Marcus suggested that the professionals need the masses to generate an income, and I would dispute this. Many (though certainly not all) professionals do very well thank you by catering for wealthy clients only, and have no need nor interest in "the masses". On the other hand, commercial people do need the masses. And some professionals of high caliber also run commercial nurseries.

All this leads me to the conclusion that the more one tries to introduce categories the more one is creating unsolvable problems. Far better to have separate shows than separate categories within the same show.

William N. Valavanis wrote:I think all those different categories and rules spoil the purpose of the shows. Or is the purpose of the show off the artists and their skill/techniques?

We are on the same page.

JudyB wrote:What about a waiting period after a tree has been purchased? Then the new owner would at least have to show maintenance skills for a number (or at least one) of years.

It's certainly a suggestion that has been put forward several times in the past in similar discussion. But it doesn't alter the basic question of why should you have to wait any time if it's the tree that is getting the award?

It seems to me that this issue is really quite simple: the tree gets the award or the artist does. Or, within a show the organisers work a way of doing both. Essentially, in the UK currently most shows of merit are ones where "Owned" trees sit alongside "Created" trees. This seems to be causing some angst among one camp while another is quite comfortable with it. If we must make distinctions (and I'm still far from convinced we should), then why not simply have awards which reflect the nature of the tree - "owned" and "created"? No silly definitions of professional/amateur/grumbled about because you can afford better quality raw material than others or whatever. The trees remain the stars but with some degree of nod towards their provenance.

I tell you what: the day a "created" tree styled by an amateur wins a top award at a UK national show, beating off competition from professionals, will be a great day for bonsai. Oh look! It's already happened. And that is why I wonder what on earth are we getting so het up about.

F


for the unitiated, "het" is the Old English version of "heated" still used widely in Scotland.

It's interesting that so many people say "the tree gets the award". So let me ask you - if your tree gets an award at a show and you then sell the tree, does the award certificate/ribbon/trophy go along with the tree to the new owner? Or do you keep that for yourself? And what about any cash award? I'll bet that doesn't go with the tree...

I like the idea of having a range of show types available so people can pick and choose what suits them. Local clubs can have both "open" (unjudged and unjuried, anyone can enter anything) exhibits and judged/juried shows with or without categories (and more rules). Group/regional shows could do the same. I said before that the Midwest show seems to want to be all things...and it is OK to have shows like that, but you'll never be able to come up with a set of rules that satisfies everyone. It seems to be a pretty successful event so overall it must be doing things pretty well as is.

coh wrote:It's interesting that so many people say "the tree gets the award". So let me ask you - if your tree gets an award at a show and you then sell the tree, does the award certificate/ribbon/trophy go along with the tree to the new owner? Or do you keep that for yourself? And what about any cash award? I'll bet that doesn't go with the tree...

An example of one way in which it can work here, Chris. I have a tree which was originally created by Dan Barton. I have had it, maintained it and developed it for some seven or eight years now so I consider it to be my tree. It was entered into Best of British three years ago as my tree with no guilt whatsoever on my part because of the length of time I had had it before that show. BUT, at the Joy of Bonsai event a couple of years ago, it was given an award as an Important Bonsai in the UK and as such is on the Register of Important British Bonsai. If I sell the tree on, that award and certificate and purty lil badge I display with it goes with it. And while it has my name against it currently, after I sell it my place in its life is no more.

Very much a case of the tree being the star.


The answer to the more general point would depend on the individuals concerned - some may keep any ribbons won as they did the work at the time the tree was exhibited. Others may take a different stance. I personally would probably opt for the latter. It doesn't alter the fact that that tree won X, Y or Z though, irrespective of who holds the gewgaw or trinket that accompanies the accolade.