Thoughts on Penjing

peter krebs wrote:

I am hurt when I now see that Walter Pall one of my best friends, so below is drawn.

Oh my Peter,

you are so innocent and sweet. This is a fight in a bar after midnight. Hey, this is fun, like in the old days. The internet was full of such stuff. Don't worry about me! I have developed the thickest skin on the internet. I have a strong scent from all the sh..t they threw at me over the times. The fundamentalist dinosaurs had their wake-up call and once again they raise their ugly heads. In vain though. The end is near, the emperor has no clothes and by now the whole bonsai world knows.

Vance and Peter,

am not hurt. And Mr. pot did not insult me. I have the strong feeling the opposite happened. Well, irony is wasted on most.

Vance Wood wrote:
I agree with you Peter, but if you look back Mr/Mrs/Mss m.t.Pot basically assaulted verbally anyone and everyone who has previously posted on this thread--even Walter Pall. It seems in Pot's view of things no one has a clue as to what bonsai is about except him/her/something-other-than, and has so far failed to follow up and show all of us how we have been, are now, and will continue to be, in the future,--- wrong.

Are you kidding?!?!?! That post was great! It was funny as all get out.

I don't know who post it, but that was some funny stuff. Obviously tongue in cheek. C'mon, let it not be said that the bonsai community has no sense of humor. I know I laugh every time I look at my own trees.

Ed

This was an interesting discussion that has dissolved into banter- I like banter, but a time and a place. As for bonsai being bonsai, well I just don't know- let's examine food as food- go into a restaurant and order "food"- see what you get, it probably won't be your favorite food, which more than likely has regional (what grows there, climate, history ect.) influences acting upon it to make it unique. I like enchiladas, but even these can be further sub-divided into Tex-Mex, Mexican and a more Southwestern variety, each is different each is unique, each is food. Hopefully some of us are in this for more than trees. Traditional bonsai is Chinese bonsai that was taken by the Japanese and given rules that reflect their cultural traditions and then has been appropriated by people around the world today. Many of these people are not Japanese, and some, like myself, have very little interest in strict mathematical rules and what not to guide artistic expression- beauty. I've grown up looking at American tress, which do not grow like their Japanese counterparts, further influencing my bonsai design. My basic argument is when conservatism stifles experimentation and ultimately advancement the art form lags, becomes sterile and dies, lonely and unappreciated by but a fanatical few. As an example of what I mean by all this here is two trees, both are trees yes I will give you that, but one is Japanese and one is American- can you guess which is which? How? Do you think this could also apply to Bonsai too?



Thanks for reading.

Here is also another article for the fray.
http://www.elandangardens.com/museum/redefined.htm

Hello Bonsai lovers,

that which brings us apart, we have been for millennia.
That what brings us together, must again be sought.

Bonsai and pots is something that connects the world.

The golden key to this gate is the Internet, we use this unique
Chance.

It was for me a great honour for this small bowl to commemorate the 4th WBCM 2002 in Munich may be pottery. The "Bonsai peace dove" on the front, my pottery colleague Dan Barton from Bristol, England drafted



"Bonsai peace dove"



The flower shape of the pot is very elated. Small clouds feet complete the harmony of the pot. Falling petals symbolize the water holes.
The pot has the still “flavour of the fire”.
Through daily use it will be for years to a beautiful patina will receive

Let that which unites us!

Best regards
Peter

So I spend another long hard day in the Akadama mines, then come home to do some bedtime reading on this forum. What do I find? Misunderstandings, insults and accusations! Worst of all I find that bonsai jackal WALTER PALL has been here, sniffing around my post. You don't need to be a wildlife biologist to guess what a wily old jackal is up to when you see him sniffing around a post. I'll deal with him soon enough, but first a few words for some others.
To Mr. Would- I am shocked at your response to my comments. Shocked and saddened. Shocked and saddened, and hurt. Very, very hurt. Mr. Would, I AM WITH YOU! I agree with you, I am on your side! I too want to protect the sanctity of bonsai and defend her from the degradation of possibly risky new ideas. I too want to uphold the status quo and keep pure this ancient art!!! How can I make this any more clear? Its you and me and that crotchety Canadian guy, shoulder to shoulder and backs to the wall, like fearless samuri standing in defiance before the corrupt warlord WALTER PALL and his army of infidel followers!!!!
To Mr. Krebs-

Hello Bonsai lovers, I am very frightened, where the discussion is now, that I would not have believed possible. I am hurt when I now see that Walter Pall one of my best friends, so below is drawn.

You seem like a nice guy, and you were the one who started this thread. But this thread is bigger now than you or I. This thread is bigger than any individual because this thread is nothing less than a desperate struggle for the heart and soul of bonsai. THE OUTCOME OF THIS DISCUSSION COULD VERY WELL DETERMINE IF BONSAI LIVES OR DIES!!!! Your "friend" MR. PALL has decided that this discussion has now become

...a fight in a bar after midnight.

Well Mr. Krebs, I suggest that you get out of Dodge while you can, because I don't want to see you get hit in the head with a bar stool.
To Mr. Landerloos-

Should we not discus penjing here

No! No we shouldn't!!! There is no "penjing"! There is only bonsai- good bonsai and bad bonsai. If we discuss "penjing" it would be like admitting that Chinese bonsai is so different it should have a different name, and that would be like admitting that it is possible to have a form of bonsai that can be identified with a certain country, and that would be like admitting that if it was possible with one country (China) it could be possible with another (the United States). THAT CAN'T BE ALLOWED TO HAPPEN!!! Because... because... because it just can't, that's why.
To Mr. Mark-

Well... I would not let that cheesy poll go to your head. Those voters are the same people that gather for the longest lines at the carnival, greasy bits and the bearded lady.

You know, I have not seen a good bearded lady in a long, long time. I wonder if this has more to do with rampant Political Correctness or improvements in hair removal techniques? And there is something very familiar in the way you phrase things...
To Mr. EdMerc-

Are you kidding?!?!?! That post was great! It was funny as all get out. I don't know who post it, but that was some funny stuff. Obviously tongue in cheek.

Sir, I don't take lightly to being mocked. By the way, do you know what is the best thing to come out of Florida? INTERSTATE 95 NORTH.
To Mr. austinheltzman-

This was an interesting discussion that has dissolved into banter- I like banter, but a time and a place.

You're getting on my nerves, NEWBIE!
And now for the "anti-Kimura" himself- MR. PALL-

Well, I was here, but then I was so ashamed. I am now sitting in the moist corner of my greenhose and licking my wounds. Artists are very sensitive folks, quite touchy. Be careful with them. I am smashed. Sitting here, deeply hurt, I vowed to never make an effort to explain all this style and so again.

Is that a promise?

Pearls thrown at sows; or something like this.

It's SWINE. Pearls before SWINE. For your information, I happen to love throwing pearls at pigs. I throw them at the pigs and then I climb in the sty with them and get them back! Stupid pigs!!!

I go back to Bonsainut to their 'General Discussion' and look at the poll about the greatest artists again to regain my self-esteem.

Yeah, how sad is that? I went to that site and looked at that poll. Did you know the guy in second place has been dead for several years? Are you worried he might catch up?

Don't worry about me! I have developed the thickest skin on the internet. I have a strong scent from all the sh..t they threw at me over the times.

Now that you mention it, the last time I was face to face with you I noticed that smell, but I didn't say anything because I wasn't sure which one of us it was coming from.

The fundamentalist dinosaurs had their wake-up call and once again they raise their ugly heads. In vain though. The end is near, the emperor has no clothes and by now the whole bonsai world knows.

That's the money quote, right there! Just who do you think you are, mister? Bonsai was here long before you showed up, and it will be here long after you are dead and gone. After you've become nothing more than a tough to get answer in a game of bonsai Trivial Pursuit! And you know what? It will still be first branch, second branch, back branch and no one will even remember that there ever was anything called "Naturalistic" bonsai!!! And do you know why? Because we want it that way. Now and forever. Big ideas can come and go, civilizations can rise and fall, but we want bonsai to remain unchanged. First branch, second branch, back branch. The Japanese took it over from the Chinese and made it perfect, and they gave it to the rest of the world as a gift. A perfect gift. All figured out. No need to tamper with it. No need to change it, not even a little bit. You don't even need to think about it. There's nothing about it that needs improvement, and where does that leave you? I'll tell you what MR. PALL, you talk a good game. Your ideas are completely thought out, and plausible, and you articulate them well. In more than one language. I'll give you credit for that. And your trees look great, I'll give you that. And you are known throughout the bonsai world and people seem to like you, I'll give you that too. But beyond that WALTER PALL, what have you got? I'll tell you, and it's a hard truth so I hope it doesn't make you cry like a little baby. You've got nothing. NOTHING. Now how does that make you feel about yourself?

Mr m.t.pott Sir, may I Sir you? I apologize for confusing sows with pigs. But that's the only mistake I ever will admit. Well, I will admit more to my group in the clinic where we speak about my depressions. They come from all that humiliation. And you stick your finger in my wounds and turn it around. So much to 'thickest skin'.
Oh, good old days are here again. I love it.

Dear Unknown,

I once wrote that a potter with the elements to live.

The elements earth, fire, water and air are the potter's allies, and a potter needs to learn to be in accord with them.

Each element contains hatred and love, becoming and passing, life and death. A creation can succeed or fail, the potter can not anticipate it.

Today, I think bonsai is the "fifth element"

Very warm greetings
Peter

This topic has strayed so far into the 'comedic' that it no longer resermbles the title. I love humour, in its place, but this is not it.

Empty Pot we know who you are and your IP address. Please behave or be kicked.

To Mr. Landerloos-

Should we not discus penjing here

No! No we shouldn't!!! There is no "penjing"! There is only bonsai- good bonsai and bad bonsai. If we discuss "penjing" it would be like admitting that Chinese bonsai is so different it should have a different name, and that would be like admitting that it is possible to have a form of bonsai that can be identified with a certain country, and that would be like admitting that if it was possible with one country (China) it could be possible with another (the United States). THAT CAN'T BE ALLOWED TO HAPPEN!!! Because... because... because it just can't, that's why.

I dont know why you react like you do, but penjing is a ancester of japanes bonsai no???
Why should we call it bonsai then?
Yes they are similar but on the other hand very different.

I understand from your statements your not a great beleiver of the Pall way or am I wrong, I'm not a big fan of the naturalistic style as they call it but I dont think we need to insult anybody bonsai is made on various levels and aproches.

Kind regards
Peter