tamarind bonsai tree

Ravi,

when you go to an Art museum, say the National Gallery in London, one can quietly sit and become an observer, or you can sit an try to pick apart a painting.
This works either way, in reality.

The problem is when using a photo or digital image on, especially a complex design, such as this Bonsai, all you have is a flat image. It isn't really possible to say very much. Even if you use the Aussie Bonsai wrap around feature, it isn't possible to really view a tree.

This problem is very noticeable, if you have trained in Art design using nature, live models, north light from a 45 deg. angle and two eyes.
Most folk have become accustommed to photographs and have as we call it flat eye sight.

Plus as sculpture goes, there is a good deal of training needed to actually do or appreciate 3d work, figurative or non figurative. Even fewer have that type of training or eye sight.
Ever see what happens when I ask to see a mature tree of a certain species ---- normally, I get no response.
Which usually suggests work influenced by [a] an idea in the head of the Bonsaist [ mannerism] and often a copy of another Bonsai [ the John Naka bit comes to mind - make your bonsai look not like a bonsai, but like a tree.]

****Lastly, when someone shows a finished piece, the most sensible approach is --- lots of praise - it is very rare that any changes will be accepted.*****

Bonsai as an Art form has a great deal of growing up to do and as I have asked before - when the design is achieved, what do you do ------> take a photograph --- hologram ---- so it can be remembered at it's best ?
It is a living growing tree.
Until.
Khaimraj

This is one beautiful tree and as others,i see nothing wrong with it having two apexes. The only change I would make would be to make the thicker trunk the tallest. Maybe a sacrifice branch at the apex can help with this. I have seen lots of trees with two,even three apexes in nature and nature is where I get my styling advice from. I don't disagree with Rob,but I feel the same way Ravi feels.

gman wrote:Hi Folks,
A very interesting thread and Ravi I'm in your camp with your thoughts on moving the boundaries of this art.
Again both Rob and Dorothy have shown their talents and given two wonderful verts and choices or paths to follow.

However I do have a question in regards to the your vert Rob and so that I and others can learn - Why did you use (select) the weaker less dominant apex to remove as I see the dominant one has better ramification and movement?
Cheers Graham

Good question Graham. I selected the first branch for the apex in that I felt the second branch was too far down the trunk line and would hurt the balance of the tree. Also picking the thinner branch would add taper and perspective. The front that Dorothy picked though looks good too. Seeing the tree in person and not via a photograph and a 5 minute virtual would have to determine the ultimate choice.

Ravi Kiran wrote:
Traditional bonsai as detailed by Rob has a framework. Trees created within this framework are beautiful without doubt. In recent years several bonsai artists have laboured hard to push these boundaries so that the art of bonsai enlarges it scope and embraces forms and shapes previously shunned upon. Two such artists of international renown are Walter Pall and Robert Steven. I’d like to refer to an article written by Walter Pall on precisely this subject of Bonsai appreciation. The article is titled “THOUGHTS ABOUT VIEWING BONSAI” and appeared in the Art of Bonsai site. This article can also be found in Walter’s Blog (which incidentally is the world’s most visited bonsai blog). I’d like to quote a few comments from this article on this subject which echo my thoughts.

“The viewer is supposed to concentrate on the visible and what he feels, not with the technique that the artist has used. It does not help for comprehending a bonsai if one knows too much about the technique of designing it and about the artist himself. The knowledgeable viewer has a tendency to pull apart a tree, to immediately start to criticize it. He is biased and does not let the tree approach him, speak to him. Bonsai designers are often the worst critics. They tend to think what they would have done, how they could improve the tree instead of simply letting the tree have an impact on their feelings. They should try to accept, at least for a moment, the bonsai the way it is.”
[i]“I believe there is nothing wrong with seemingly dogmatic and rigid rules being taught, because each rule is simply a convention with an important lesson behind it. Unfortunately most bonsai enthusiasts simply swallow these rules without digesting the lessons. Consequently many mistake a list of helpful conventions for an ironclad checklist of absolute rights and wrongs. This sort of mistake greatly decreases any chance they may have of creating artistry”

Good post Ravi,
I enjoy pushing boundaries all the time. In the space business that's what we do but we can't ignore the laws/rules of physics and expect to have a safe successful mission. Many of my bonsai try to push boundaries. Snake roots, aliens on rocks, sea monsters - these are all allusions that I have tried to evoke in some of my trees - I don't even attempt to make them look like a tree per se.

Regarding Walter's quote, the feeling of a tree is what is intended whether it's a traditional design or something modern that breaks rules. I actually have written a whole book about this called "Emotional Trees" sitting on my hard drive. (Haven't been able to find a publisher for it yet as it is pretty deep and definitely for the serious bonsai aficionado.) "Traditional" design trees can evoke a whole gamut of emotions and so can a "modern" tree. And since we are talking about emotions, they will vary tremendously depending on the state of the viewer. I look at this tamarind without leaves and see a classic design through and through but with two conflicting apices there is a problem. To my trained eye, selective compression has failed and I don't see a full size tree. I see confusion and the tree seems to deserve more than that. You see it as full size tree and it is fine with you - a different emotional response - which is what emotions are all about (Otherwise how would some of us ever find a mate if we felt the same about every other person)

Ravi Kiran wrote:
In summary what I am humbly saying is let us push the boundaries of this beautiful art so that the enlarged framework encompasses many more designs that the current framework permits. I also wish to place on record that my disagreements are always point specific and never individual specific. I might disagree with a single point someone is making and go on to agree with 10 other points that person makes. Hoping all who read this post will understand this facet of mine.

One area I'd like to push is genetic engineering of bonsai trees. Anyone out there want to help me?

Graham,

Thanks for your thoughts and glad you understand what I am saying.


Khaimraj,

I have gone through both your posts and my first reaction is that of envy. Envy because unlike you I am not trained in fine arts and Bonsai is indeed in that domain where I am untrained. I am also untrained in Bonsai in the sense that I am mostly self and internet taught. Though I learn quickly, I can hardly call internet a flesh and blood master.

On your thoughts of the limitations of a picture and what you call as "Flat eye sight" I can't help but fully agree. Having said that in a forum like IBC where the ONLY 2 ways one can share information is through a 2D picture or a 3D video. Having accepted these limitations leaves us with two clear choices. The first one is to not respond and withhold ones comments / advice and the second is to go ahead and share ones thoughts despite the limitations. I'd choose the second option because the margin of error is minimal and it is worth sharing the comments. Otherwise fora such as this would be dull and lose their significance as a major source of sharing views and thoughts on this subject so dear to all of us.

Ravi

Dear Rob,

Thanks a ton for your views and I am glad to see you partake in this discussion in the spirit of the discussion. Your use of emoticons greatly help in easing disagreement tensions. Thanks again.

I am glad to see that you are doing your fair share of pushing the boundaries of Bonsai. The few examples that you have shared surely do sound very interesting. Do share the sharable parts if you could.

Robert Kempinski wrote: In the space business that's what we do but we can't ignore the laws/rules of physics and expect to have a safe successful mission.

Being a qualified Electronics and Communication Engineer myself, I perfectly do understand what you have said above. However I am glad and thankful that Bonsai is an art and though it is partly a science it is certainly not Rocket science (I couldn't resist that one... especially when you gave it to me on a silver platter ).

Your statement referred to above also sheds some light on your penchant for rules. Being a marketing professional in the early days of my career has trained me to read between lines/words into the minds of people

Light hearted banter apart, I am glad to know that you understand (even though you do not fully subscribe to) my point of view. Thanks.

Regards
Ravi

Ravi,

the way we handle these types of situations on the Art forums is simply to show efforts that are not finished, and ask for opinions. For example, one can post a tree with the attitude of the trunk,and first 3 to 6 branches in place, and discuss that.

A finished effort, is meant to be appreciated, and thus you use Art Appreciation, and not Art critiques. This is mostly because, the owner of the effort is not really asking for how to improve the tree, but more a pat on the back for an achievement.

Additionally, I have come to realise that perhaps we have been using Bonsai in the wrong way. I have over the years been reading Chinese Literature, more of the old stuff [ classical if you prefer ] and there are no mentions of Bonsai [ Penjing if you prefer,] as usual I stand to be corrected.
I suspect that Bonsai was simply part of the Scholar's table, along with the collected rocks, used as a way to relax the mind, and re-focus for Ink work [ calligraphy, painting, poetry].
Bonsai may never have been meant to stand on it's own.
Thus all this push to make Bonsai into an Art form may be a waste of time.

I am not discouraging discussing design on finished trees, simply a modification to the approach.
Khaimraj

* When I say I have been doing bonsai for x years, it is not to state I am an Expert ------- I am no expert ----- I am just sharing what little I have experienced and it may save someone some time gaining certain experiences.

Ravi and anyone else, may I direct your attention to a Tamarind tree of note.

http://www.tropicalbonsai.com/forums/showthread.php?t=1543

Look at the first tree, it's dips and mounds in the tree's leaf mass. This is a quality that I believe to be very important and is rare in Bonsai. With age if this feeling can be maintained and matured along with rest of tree, I figure this should be a clear masterpiece.
Khaimraj

Rob,
I think this needs a thread all by itself:
One area I'd like to push is genetic engineering of bonsai trees. Anyone out there want to help me?
I'm sure others are interested in what your thoughts are on this.
Cheers Graham

Graham,

Not genetic engineering, selected cultivars. You should see what I found as a Murraya paniculata, seed sport.
Khaimraj

Khaimraj Seepersad wrote:Graham,

Not genetic engineering, selected cultivars. You should see what I found as a Murraya paniculata, seed sport.
Khaimraj

Actually I mean genetic engineering to make new cultivars. A new thread sounds good. Let me work on that.

Simply Awesome....

I have just taken up two tamarind trees yesterday... objective being to fuse them together over time, and your plant actually throws up lots of ideas, for me to take mine further.

Thanks for sharing.

Bhanu

hello brother 3B,my name Quyet(friend of SOI HOANG_Quang ninh),today i come here firtd ,happy to come here and see vietnamese people.Help me more,thank you,brother,

caycanhvn2012 wrote:hello brother 3B,my name Quyet(friend of SOI HOANG_Quang ninh),today i come here firtd ,happy to come here and see vietnamese people.Help me more,thank you,brother,

oh welcome you to this forum where there are alot of thing to learn
thanks for your kind words, I am glad to see you here too
these are latest photo., I have just repotted


regards!
bigbabol!

Hi all,

It is interesting to read all the comments. Looking at the picture below, you can see the conflict or"fighting"among the first and second apex. There is nothing wrong with two or even more apex, provided they are supporting each other. With little adjustment the conflicts can be minimize.
Rob and Dorothy have made good virtual to minimize the conflicts.
It is a good tamarind, anyhow.

Budi

my opinion....I agree with budi

In my opinion, there are several issues on this design :



1. The two apex lines are competing each other as they are approx in the same size and same length, so it biases the vocal point.
2. The two apex lines are exactly drawing down vertically to the lower two branches; this gives the image that the trunk is cut separated into three pieces, and this is distracting our viewing flow.
3. There is kind of common mind-set to form a round apex shape and covering the overall design leaving no empty space; this always fail to expose movement.



So my suggestion is as the following simulation :

Here is a very rare Tamarin cascade in nature...

thanks all your opinions, I am very glad to read and think of what you said, they are useful words to me in training a bonsai
thanks again!
best regards!
bigbabol

Robert Steven wrote:Here is a very rare Tamarin cascade in nature...

hi Robert
Where is the place you and the tamarine tree in the picture ?
I love to go there once.
Rgds /Qui

bigbabol wrote:thanks all your opinions, I am very glad to read and think of what you said, they are useful words to me in training a bonsai
thanks again!
best regards!
bigbabol

Hi bigbabol
Do you join me to take a trip to Indo next year ?

PROTONWIRA wrote:

bigbabol wrote:thanks all your opinions, I am very glad to read and think of what you said, they are useful words to me in training a bonsai
thanks again!
best regards!
bigbabol

Hi bigbabol
Do you join me to take a trip to Indo next year ?

oh yeah, I hope so
thanks alot, i have just read the link of robert steven which you sent me
rgds!
bigbabol